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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#3181 - 2013-12-09 12:44:29 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Terranid Meester wrote:
EvE is a pvp game. Deal with it.


Most players don't pay for the PvP. Deal with it.


I think you are most definitely wrong. If you don't like pvp then you are playing the wrong game.
Go back to WoW etc.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#3182 - 2013-12-09 13:32:28 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Terranid Meester wrote:
EvE is a pvp game. Deal with it.


Most players don't pay for the PvP. Deal with it.


I think you are most definitely wrong. If you don't like pvp then you are playing the wrong game.
Go back to WoW etc.


Simpleton. EVE is not just a pvp game. The only way you can maintain such a view is by ignoring the overwhelming evidence to the otherwise.

That must be a really nice rock you're living under.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#3183 - 2013-12-09 16:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Terranid Meester wrote:

I think you are most definitely wrong. If you don't like pvp then you are playing the wrong game.
Go back to WoW etc.


As an experiment, go into highsec (where literally 90% of the Eve player base is) and move to a well populated system. Now look up the killboard of ten people and tell me how many of them are PvPers, or have better than a 50% efficiency. What you will likely find is that a very small percentage of them PvP regularly.

I am very pro (not pro AT) PvP. I have a trading/industry main (Davon) and a PvP alt, and I love Eve's PvP focus. It is what keeps me playing Eve. But frankly you and I are not a majority. Something that you should probably recognize before trying to use it as an argument* on the forums.

*An argument that would be irrelevant even if true.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#3184 - 2013-12-10 10:31:29 UTC
I would think most people, even the highsec "carebears" enjoy EVE's sense of danger, that you are not 100% safe anywhere, ever. I know I do, that is part of my fascination with the game.
What I bet they don't enjoy however is people trying to push them forcibly in to 0.0 (NERF HIGHSEC), where they cannot go for various reasons or just because they generally don't want to.
Aldebaran Aubaris
Free-lances
#3185 - 2013-12-10 10:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldebaran Aubaris
I've waited on and off a decade for this!

Maybe those locked doors at the back of the captains quarters will lead somewhere soon! \O/
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#3186 - 2013-12-10 11:40:32 UTC
No. That was clear statement, 3 years for expanding spaceship gameplay.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3187 - 2013-12-10 13:18:04 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
No. That was clear statement, 3 years for expanding spaceship nulllsec uberalliance space-holding gameplay.


FYP for reality.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Nadia Barsrallah
Nerbles
#3188 - 2013-12-10 13:25:05 UTC
Why do people think WiS should have no pvp?

If anything it should be pvp focused! all the chest-thumping pvpers in this game are the same lot who hide in stations and trash talk local.

Not everyone wants WiS to be a /dance RP thing

Eve really fails at its claim at being hardcore PvP when players are 100% invulnerble AND safe docked up. regardless of a system sec status/

Allow my dust toon to kick down a door and tea bag local trash talking Johny Kilboard.

seriously, grouping all WiS supporters as PvEing carebears space barbies is misleading, Some of want more pvp, more danger, more risk in this game.

CCP claiming eve is a hardcore pvp game is such fallacy, WiS is the perfect way to shake the game up and make trash talking "pvp" celebrities feel the vulnerbility they should feel.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#3189 - 2013-12-10 13:38:13 UTC
Nadia Barsrallah wrote:
Why do people think WiS should have no pvp?
If anything it should be pvp focused! all the chest-thumping pvpers in this game are the same lot who hide in stations and trash talk local.

Not everyone wants WiS to be a /dance RP thing

Eve really fails at its claim at being hardcore PvP when players are 100% invulnerble AND safe docked up. regardless of a system sec status/

Allow my dust toon to kick down a door and tea bag local trash talking Johny Kilboard.

seriously, grouping all WiS supporters as PvEing carebears space barbies is misleading, Some of want more pvp, more danger, more risk in this game.

CCP claiming eve is a hardcore pvp game is such fallacy, WiS is the perfect way to shake the game up and make trash talking "pvp" celebrities feel the vulnerbility they should feel.


This.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#3190 - 2013-12-11 00:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Nadia Barsrallah wrote:
Why do people think WiS should have no pvp?


Well, I know this isn't even a point worthy of consideration for most people, but unless you want to bin 10 years of backstory, it's because we die outside of our pods for real. We cannot use the DUST implants, the technology is inherently incompatible with capsuleer implants. CCP's story team has stated this numerous times on the fiction forum.

If you want more danger, just undock more often.

Again, I'm just full of crazy ideas here, but just maybe, EVE needs at least one safe haven, instead of one haven less. Preferably with something to do while waiting, be it minigames, "some stupid boardroom" where to plan travel routes or follow what other corpmates or even corporations are doing. Hell - finding drugs or other things to smuggle. One of the original plans for WIS I faintly recall hearing was to give smuggling and other crime as a profession a new life - stuff you "needed to do off the radar."
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3191 - 2013-12-11 07:51:18 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Nadia Barsrallah wrote:
Why do people think WiS should have no pvp?


Well, I know this isn't even a point worthy of consideration for most people, but unless you want to bin 10 years of backstory, it's because we die outside of our pods for real. We cannot use the DUST implants, the technology is inherently incompatible with capsuleer implants. CCP's story team has stated this numerous times on the fiction forum.

If you want more danger, just undock more often.

Again, I'm just full of crazy ideas here, but just maybe, EVE needs at least one safe haven, instead of one haven less. Preferably with something to do while waiting, be it minigames, "some stupid boardroom" where to plan travel routes or follow what other corpmates or even corporations are doing. Hell - finding drugs or other things to smuggle. One of the original plans for WIS I faintly recall hearing was to give smuggling and other crime as a profession a new life - stuff you "needed to do off the radar."


...and anyway we could always resort to proxy PvP, either with "drone clones" or VR environments. Obviously VR would be risk-free, so the idea of drone clones would be better suit to EVE.

VR, on the other hand, would open massive opportunities for alternate gameplay, but CCP are not the right guys to dare to do that.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#3192 - 2013-12-11 10:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
...and anyway we could always resort to proxy PvP, either with "drone clones" or VR environments. Obviously VR would be risk-free, so the idea of drone clones would be better suit to EVE.

VR, on the other hand, would open massive opportunities for alternate gameplay, but CCP are not the right guys to dare to do that.


The thought did cross my mind while making that post, but I thought that would defeat the point of non-consensual pvp (because, you would have to queue up for a pvp arena in order it to make storywise any sense), and, as silly as it sounds, I'd wager killing fake ... uh, even faker, fake avatars would be less thrilling than killing the "real" one. Human mind is just silly like that.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#3193 - 2013-12-11 11:53:59 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:

Well, I know this isn't even a point worthy of consideration for most people, but unless you want to bin 10 years of backstory, it's because we die outside of our pods for real


Your obviously not that au fait with Eve lore or back story. The Broker would disagree.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#3194 - 2013-12-11 13:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
Your obviously not that au fait with Eve lore or back story. The Broker would disagree.


I have not read the novels, I've understood he plays a large part in one, but still one single chracter that happened to somehow cheat death due to "lol jove magic" (as far as I've been told) is not really a reason enough to claim that capsuleers are immortal outside of their pods. Because they're not. Here, a whole thread about the issue. And now that I think about I think The Broker now exists as a digital entity, altough even that's a bit much, he's supposedly more like the data ghosts in Dr. Who than anything you could deem actually living.

I've never once claimed I know the background fluff like the back of my hands, but this is one area in the lore I believe I do know enough.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3195 - 2013-12-11 14:09:01 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
...and anyway we could always resort to proxy PvP, either with "drone clones" or VR environments. Obviously VR would be risk-free, so the idea of drone clones would be better suit to EVE.

VR, on the other hand, would open massive opportunities for alternate gameplay, but CCP are not the right guys to dare to do that.


The thought did cross my mind while making that post, but I thought that would defeat the point of non-consensual pvp (because, you would have to queue up for a pvp arena in order it to make storywise any sense), and, as silly as it sounds, I'd wager killing fake ... uh, even faker, fake avatars would be less thrilling than killing the "real" one. Human mind is just silly like that.


The drone clone concept was born as a tool for the exploration prototype, a way to justify why would a capsuleer leave his armed behemoth and go himself on foot rather than just send some of his 3,000 crew. Actually, drone clones could even be dpeloyed on DUST 514 (there is lore about capsuleers parcitipating as hackers in DUST battles).

PvP arenas could be just a scenario. Anything that happened outside of a station and risked death, could be done by a drone clone.

As for the value... come on, people find compelling to kill a "ship avatar", why not a human avatar with the face of your enemy? Specially if it's rigged with expensive augmentations? Maybe even, huh, lootable aumgmentations?

"Sniffer hacking module Mk II, used - ISK 12,451,000"
"Aegis armored chest Mk I, new - ISK 25,478,960"
"Cheetah powered leg, right, damaged - iSK 3,578,000"
"Aztec in-blood medikit, 10 uses - ISK 500,000"

Huh. Excuse me for my walk in the clouds. Surely a Goon built gate so Goons can go to New Space is everything the game needs...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Nadia Barsrallah
Nerbles
#3196 - 2013-12-11 14:09:27 UTC
WiS could also be a great shake up for the sov grind

Sweeeping a station's interior would be alot more gameplay then F1 and watch a zillion HPs pixel itself to zero

the fact that this thread is 160 pages long and over a year old, should be enough to tell CCP that people are still interested in the broader concept of avatar gameplay

its not like there is any shortages of ideas from the community.

Its a little saddening that after all this time, that there hasn't been any update, or pulse on this topic from CCP, a dev blog, or anything. The commuinity still cares, does CCP?
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#3197 - 2013-12-11 15:53:13 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
PvP...


Yeah, whatever. I still think, if WIS comes before 2023, it should be extremely limited in terms of PvP. It could obviously be a part of it, but characters should not be killed while in station, because reasons already stated. I would rather see something else, entirely new content for WiS than just the same old "hurr durr must kill everyone and everything that disagrees with me." Like the aforementioned smuggling/crime professions could be developed further and made actual professions.

This is just my opinion, but EVE has well enough PvP. Restating my last advice; If you feel you're not in enough danger while playing EVE, undock more, **** off more people, you'll get your danger.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#3198 - 2013-12-11 16:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Capsuleers don't die outside of their pod. If they're killed, the new information (info since their last death) can't be transmitted, and so the clone that wakes up would recall nothing since their previous death. That's how the broker did it. He even woke up multiple clones and sent them off separately. They would take their life when they were done (more than one clone active at once, ie two of him or more).

Sure, that's really bad. But it's not death (well it is, but technically death is death whether your in your pod or not. The clone that wakes up is not the same person what-ever way you look at it).

You could avoid that with a simple clone vat in your ship. You would euthenise your current clone, move to the new clone and your information could then be saved. That way you would only loose the memories from the moment you left your ship, to the moment you died.

CCP wrote new lore for the Dust bunnies. It would take a very small leap of imagination to allow capsuleers the same privilege.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3199 - 2013-12-11 16:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Nadia Barsrallah wrote:
Its a little saddening that after all this time, that there hasn't been any update, or pulse on this topic from CCP, a dev blog, or anything. The commuinity still cares, does CCP?


This. Absolutely this. It'd just be nice to see a senior EVE dev put out a blog along the lines of, say "yes, we're still interested in doing it, eventually, and we have ideas A, B and C about how to make it definitely EVE, but on foot. But we're going to do X, Y and Z first, and we don't anticipate that we'll be returning our attention to avatar-based gameply before 201x at the earliest."

Some insight into its status in the dev team would be truly welcome.

EDIT: an actual professional estimate on the time and resources required to implement any serious avatar content would be wonderful, too. I hate the armchair speculation about it - a simple education on the number of developers, their specialties, and the total man-hours that would be involved in bringing worthwhile avatar gameplay to us would be a great Xmas gift.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3200 - 2013-12-11 16:51:24 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Just look at PCU versus marketing expense

I wasn't aware that you had access to data on their marketing expense ;)


Of course I have it, their financial statements are publicly available on their website.

Here's a summary I made some months ago:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3679134#post3679134

Quote:
CCP game revenue 2008: 41,668,893
CCP game revenue 2009: 51,782,424
CCP game revenue 2010: 57,428,530
CCP game revenue 2011: 63,323,357
CCP game revenue 2012: 64,436,996

CCP marketing expense 2008: (8,524,124)
CCP marketing expense 2009: (9,410,916)
CCP marketing expense 2010: (9,769,965)
CCP marketing expense 2010: (9,769,965)
CCP marketing expense 2011: (9,912,335)
CCP marketing expense 2012: (12,567,302)

CCP research and development expense 2008: (7,868,828)
CCP research and development expense 2009: (9,342,375)
CCP research and development expense 2010: (11,127,383)
CCP research and development expense 2011: (12,972,482)
CCP research and development expense 2012: (16,513,666)

CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2008: 5,532,343
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2009: 6,020,872
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2010: 5,482,264
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2011: 8,817,262
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2012: 4,597,556

2013 january-june trends vs 2012 january-june:

Game revenue UP by 4.3 million USD
Marketing expense UP by 1.9 million USD
Research and development UP by 4.4 million USD


Quote:
But look back on you data, Eve is a very successful niche game.

So far no other game has come close and it doesn't look like any of the upcoming games are even trying.



Well, currently SC haves 325,490 supporters, which are more unique customers than EVE haves. And SC aims straight at the core of the following EVE demographics:

- "Casual" players
- Solo players
- PvE players
- Hisec players
- aspiring avatar PvP players
- aspiring avatar PvE players

That's about 60 to 80% of the subscriber base. They simply are too many as to disregard the chances that a fraction of them actually unsub to never come back.

And, of course, there's Elite: Dangerous too.


Star Trek Online had 1 million subscribers (to a game people could actually play and had more than a hanger). it was supposed to be the end of EVE. SWTOR had more than that. Black prophecy never had that many but the hype was that it was supposed ot have killed EVE because at one point more people were playing it than EVE.

I remember the story of a feather weight boxer who won the world championship like 3 times and had a very good record but the sports reporters didn't think much of him. He famously asked "who do i have to kill to get some respect".

EVE has survived challeges to it's supremacy every year for 10 years. How many EVE killers does EVE have to survive to get some respect???