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Two years later: Walking in Stations

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Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#241 - 2013-12-09 16:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Garric Blackk wrote:

When the Devs and the community decide that the game is balanced. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see more "stuff to do" inside a station but right now there are more important things to focus on.

I would love to see the Dev's work on Null Sec and/or work on some of the things implemented from Rubicon.


I think his point is that the community will never think that the game is balanced. It's been 2 years since Incarna and people are already moaning about things that were balanced since then. 2 years, and they haven't covered half of the things that people have been asking for, like Sov, or POSes, or T3s. or Off-Grid-Boosters. Once those are balanced people will be moaning harder about the things that have already been updated/balanced as well as moaning about the stuff that will have been done since then.

Eve will never be balanced. It's a noble effort and I think has been fantastic so far, but that is a reality people will have to deal with. It will never be perfect.

Aside from that. CCP are working on 4 other projects aside from Eve, which are not pulling in an income. If they hadn't of done that (something most huge games companies would scoff at attempting), then we could have the balancing effort we are seeing now AND development of Avatar content.

Edit: On top of that, CCP are working towards new goals already that are not balancing. Ie, their scheme for Star gates to new space that no one wanted or asked for. If they add new space, they're going to have to balance that as well. They could be doing what they are doing now, but working towards Avatar content instead of star gates. I would be perfectly happy with that, as I am sure others would. And apparently so would you, according to your posts.
Hemi DarkStar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#242 - 2013-12-09 16:39:15 UTC
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
Garric Blackk wrote:

When the Devs and the community decide that the game is balanced. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see more "stuff to do" inside a station but right now there are more important things to focus on.

I would love to see the Dev's work on Null Sec and/or work on some of the things implemented from Rubicon.


I think his point is that the community will never think that the game is balanced. It's been 2 years since Incarna and people are already moaning about things that were balanced since then. 2 years, and they haven't covered half of the things that people have been asking for, like Sov, or POSes, or T3s. or Off-Grid-Boosters. Once those are balanced people will be moaning harder about the things that have already been updated/balanced as well as moaning about the stuff that will have been done since then.

Eve will never be balanced. It's a noble effort and I think has been fantastic so far, but that is a reality people will have to deal with. It will never be perfect.

Aside from that. CCP are working on 4 other projects aside from Eve, which are not pulling in an income. If they hadn't of done that (something most huge games companies would scoff at attempting), then we could have the balancing effort we are seeing now AND development of Avatar content.


I think that count's for all MMO's tbh. No MMO is ever "balanced". Hence the spark of interest in WiS after a long time of dormancy imo. The balance issues that currently exist can be tweaked along the way easy. Might as well add some new content that doesn't require balance in the form of WiS, while doing the tweaks people scream about on these boards.
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#243 - 2013-12-09 17:02:55 UTC
I want to reiterate a point I made previously that I feel will help keep all the “Eve is about spaceships” people happy and still make WiS something worthwhile for all those folk who are interested.

LEAVE THE COMBAT IN SPACE.

You want hand to hand combat, go play Dust (although I understand half of us don’t want to buy a stupid console just to play it so go play PS2 or something)

We are pod pilots. Our minds, our bodies are trained and focused on controlling massive ships in massive space battles all while we contain ourselves in our little egg within those ships. So let’s not take away from that. Let’s keep the focus of Eve Online on space. The WiS is merely a lounging place for us to take the occasional brake from our piloting duties. And while I lounge, let me play a game of cards or chess or whatever other mini-game with some other pod pilots while we chat about ship fittings or while I browse the market on my tablet device or a market kiosk. Or maybe meet with my corporation or alliance leadership in our private, rented, corporate office to discuss around a holographic rendering of what belts to mine out, what systems to explore or what stations to conquer.

And who else would I see besides other pod pilots in that shared environment? Perhaps the occasional dancer, bartender or janitor. Or I could visit my mission agent, who just happens to be lounging at the bar as well (or maybe the bartender IS my agent), to get my next assignment. Although this isn't the stone age so I could also do that from the comfort of my ship in the hanger. However, beyond that, we’re in our own elitist area of the station. Reserved specifically for our god like status within the universe. So I don’t expect to see some poor peasant begging for a few iskies or a bunch of random tourists blocking my view of the dancers.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#244 - 2013-12-09 17:13:54 UTC
Where's the interest in that, though? Why would you prefer to walk for three minutes to meet your agent face-to-face when you can just click on their face from the second you dock?

EoF would need to have features not immediately accessible from the game as-is in order to actually be interesting. Sure, bars and poker and gambling and stuff is fun (seriously, it is, although maybe not for everyone) but I can already do that stuff via other channels, so it needs to be the bonus content, the icing on the big delicious EVE content cake that the rest of the avatar gameplay provides.

The actual core of EoF would have to revolve around PvP, or else it's not EVE.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#245 - 2013-12-09 17:33:18 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Where's the interest in that, though? Why would you prefer to walk for three minutes to meet your agent face-to-face when you can just click on their face from the second you dock?

EoF would need to have features not immediately accessible from the game as-is in order to actually be interesting. Sure, bars and poker and gambling and stuff is fun (seriously, it is, although maybe not for everyone) but I can already do that stuff via other channels, so it needs to be the bonus content, the icing on the big delicious EVE content cake that the rest of the avatar gameplay provides.

The actual core of EoF would have to revolve around PvP, or else it's not EVE.



I would walk to the agent for the immersion factor. But again, I would not want to take away the ability to do all the stuff (other than the mini-games) that I currently can do from the hanger. It would remain my choice.

And your "pvp" would be the mini-games like poker. Yes, that can be done through other channels but at present those "other channels" are player made websites. Why not bring that into Eve where I can bet my isks or even a ship or module. Throw it into some pot (similar to the current trade window) and let the cards fall.

Basically, my point is not to take away from the spaceship game that is Eve. Don't add so much to stations that nobody ever undocks anymore. Don't turn us from pilots into rifle toting grunts, ala Dust merc in space.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#246 - 2013-12-09 17:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Nobody's suggesting that. I'm proposing that there should be different resources that a subculture of players can exploit, exactly as is done now. stationsiders should be equivalent to wormholers, nullsec empire-builders, Incursion-runners and so on - the game isn't dominated by any of those groups, it's all part of the tapestry.

It may even involve having to undock and travel between several stations in order to get anything useful done.

But just being able to play poker and strut your stuff isn't enough. it needs to be EVE in stations, and that means risk-versus-reward, resource gathering, competition and intrigue.

Think less rifle-toting grunts, and more Han Solo or Mal Reynolds.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#247 - 2013-12-09 18:11:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Nobody's suggesting that. I'm proposing that there should be different resources that a subculture of players can exploit, exactly as is done now. stationsiders should be equivalent to wormholers, nullsec empire-builders, Incursion-runners and so on - the game isn't dominated by any of those groups, it's all part of the tapestry.

It may even involve having to undock and travel between several stations in order to get anything useful done.

But just being able to play poker and strut your stuff isn't enough. it needs to be EVE in stations, and that means risk-versus-reward, resource gathering, competition and intrigue.

Think less rifle-toting grunts, and more Han Solo or Mal Reynolds.



True, but then what do those wormholers, nullsec empire-builders and Incursion runners all have in common? They're in space, piloting spaceships, shooting their spaceship guns (whether it be at each other or at NPCs) You add too much content to WiS and what you've done is create basically a whole new game. You're not just adding immersion, which is what I see WiS as being, you're adding an entirely new game. You're turning Eve into Dust. All I'm saying is keep it simple (at first).

So I'm also not really against content, like what your suggesting, being added eventually. I'm just saying take baby steps. What I'm proposing, I see as being just that. It's also giving us what CCP first portrayed it as and what first had us excited.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#248 - 2013-12-09 18:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Ambassador Crane wrote:
True, but then what do those wormholers, nullsec empire-builders and Incursion runners all have in common? They're in space, piloting spaceships, shooting their spaceship guns


Just think of your avatar as a different kind of ship, in a different kind of space. The difference between ship-based and avatar-based gameplay is all in your head. So it wouldn't be adding a whole new game, it'd be expanding the existing game into different areas and visual expressions, that's all.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#249 - 2013-12-09 18:27:03 UTC
Captain IQ wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Captain IQ wrote:
EVE is dying
I can't quite communicate the feel I get from seeing posts saying this after having spent nearly a decade seeing posts saying this.


Some people can't separate (in their minds) themselves from everyone else, so they think that if THEY are starting to dislike something, every one else is too, therefore EVE must be dying....when in fact, EVE is only dying for THEM.

Funnily enough, in the General Discussion forum, people who can't understand the concept described above tend to have the word "Captain" in their screen names Twisted


I see what you did there.

Its ok. One does not really believe EVE is dying. One says it is so simply for the provocation.

For all you know I might be in Null sec ratting now enjoying this glorious game.

Though I'm pretty sure somone else will have walking in stations before this game does.



Dying isn't always instant fyi, yes it's been said for a long time I use to hate reading those posts too but now I'm really starting to believe it.

"Some people can't separate (in their minds) themselves from everyone else, so they think that if THEY are starting to dislike something, every one else is too, therefore EVE must be dying....when in fact, EVE is only dying for THEM."

And this is gobbledegook but if you mean I think everyone feels the same as I do then ofc I don't that would be daft but the plain fact is every time this subject comes up the discussion runs to many pages so deny it if you like but a lot of people feel strongly and hold an opposing view to you, deal with it rather than single one person out in the discussion just because you don't like the name Captain.



Yep, I can now confirm that all the people who use the word captain in their screen names tend to think alike lol.

You are aware that very few EVE players ever visit these forums and that it's "threadnaughts" don't really represent anything. Most threads on the EVE forums are the same few people arguing back and forth with each other. Looking at the forums and somehow allowing yourself to beleive that anyhting people are typing here supports whatever crackpot posistion you hold is insane.

In other words, it' doesn't matter how many people think "EVe is dying", a lot of those same people think the moon landings were faked. What matters is actual truth.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#250 - 2013-12-09 18:53:46 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Hemi DarkStar wrote:


Go ahead, give us your ideas for WiS. That, or leave this discussion to people that actually love the idea of WiS.

You can ask others to come up with ideas all day, and you will prob bash those ideas too. (that seems to be your approach anyway...) Not very constructive if you ask me...


O.o

Wat the heck are you on about?

Im asking for one single reason that WiS equates more content

No one has even made a single suggestion about what it would allow that is currently not available

So I cant have bashed any ideas already, because there havent been any.

Also, I wasnt aware that only people who were in support of the topic for discussion were allowed to discuss it?

Because thats not a discussion, bud


Break into a CQ and gank a scammer... With Concorde response in HS.
Garric Blackk
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2013-12-09 19:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Garric Blackk
Stitcher wrote:
Garric Blackk wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Garric Blackk wrote:
I like the WiS stuff but at this point they need to focus on inspace things.


When will that change, exactly? I keep seeing it said, but they've been focusing on inspace things for ten years. It's NEVER going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There is only "good enough."

So when, in your view, will EVE have reached the point that they won't need to focus on inspace things at the expense of any other option? When will inspace have been sufficiently fleshed out that you think that the game will be ready for EVE in Stations?



When the Devs and the community decide that the game is balanced.


I'm pretty sure that the community couldn't reach consensus on the location of our respective buttocks, let alone on whether the game has now reached a point where all of our pet bugbears have been dealt with. That's far too vague a response.

Quote:
I would love to see the Dev's work on Null Sec and/or work on some of the things implemented from Rubicon.


Specifically? What's wrong with nullsec in your opinion?


What I am trying to say is... there is more important things to work on outside of WIS.

Specifically with Nullsec I wouldn't mind seeing more benefits for the anti blob mentality. Also, I would like to see some changes to Sov in general. In my opinion, it pretty much promotes the blob mentality.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#252 - 2013-12-09 19:14:41 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
The only thing I don't understand about that point of view Scatim is that if EVE is so terribly broken and incomplete as you say, with players rioting when a single update doesn't focus on their playstyle, why the heck are you playing it at all? Ugh

Surely you must love the game despite all of this. We all do. Or we wouldn't be here.

There's nothing else that does anything similar (except maybe Perpetuum, which nobody plays or cares about) and nothing on the horizon offering any kind of vision for single-shard, player driven, no holds barred conflict. Frankly the gameplay content of Eve isn't particularly satisfactory and if it wasn't for the meta-game which CCP has permitted and encouraged I wouldn't still be here.

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Yes, but the resources are already thrown to whole new games: Dust, WoD, Valkyrie... and who knows what else... And is not for game-within-a game, but just totally new game, not integrated, not in line with EVE standards and not even on the same platform.

No resource here to fight for, only crumbs. Is clear as anything relevant will be ignored for long time, maybe forever, excpet little things that can be "sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak".

The first goal should be to bring EVE resources back. And to have a chance have to be for something giving to CCP a chance to extend gameplay and grow.

I agree entirely, Valkyrie looks interesting but the idea that a bunch of CCP names have been taken away from working on Eve to create another side project for the next 6 or 12 or 18 months isn't encouraging for the future of the core game at all.

I would be very interested to see a breakdown of CCP's current staff numbers between the various divisions.

Stitcher wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
When the fundamental big issues with Eve are actually tackled and resolved, rather than ignored or sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak there.

It's all very well to say they've been doing in-space content for ten years but when much of that in-space content is incomplete, flawed, and generally unsatisfactory it isn't exactly a state that encourages us to think CCP needs to start throwing resources at a whole new game-within-a-game until they've demonstrated they can finish what they started and fix what they broke.


Could you maybe give specific examples? It's all well and good saying that "much of the in-space content is incomplete" but A: we're coming back around to the issue of different resources (balancing a ship or creating a more interesting version of mining uses a very different skillset to what would be used in producing EiS) and B: different people seem to disagree wildly on what it is, exactly, that needs fixing.


Off the top of my head, Industry is hopelessly lacking, the entire PvE system is so rudimentary and anti-fun that it feels like a pre-beta placeholder for a proper system that fell unnoticed into a development black hole, the Dominion sov system was a failure of suicide-inducing perma-grind which has never been revisited, a good 75% of all modules in the database are hilariously useless, risk/reward balance is a joke, and the only significant isk sink appears to be when rich vets burn out and quit the game.

More worrying than the issues is the lack of progress on dealing with them. CCP at times seems caught like a rabbit in the headlights by the idea of actually applying a big picture fix - likely a consequence of the post-Incarna fallout - and would much rather nibble around the edges of what exists already while talking up a Future Vision which makes little mention of fixing the foundations. If we're lucky, the issues will be fixed as part of the roadmap - for example, if we're going to develop the ability to manufacture stargates of our own it would be an obvious opportunity to fix wider nullsec manufacturing issues as part of the package. But I don't see any clear sign that CCP are actually taking that approach.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Tear Dancer
Armada vi Vulnezia
#253 - 2013-12-09 20:02:07 UTC
I would love to see more Avatar depth to the game. Spaceships are fun but don't really Immerse me. It would be fun to walk around more places in the station or on your ship and to meet others in a virtual sense. Just, playing a game , having a virtual beer together while we wait for our criminal tag to expire for another strike on retrievers.

Pi$$ed off Exotic Dancer

I blow up Miners for fun and Dance for entertainment.
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#254 - 2013-12-09 20:21:40 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Off the top of my head, Industry is hopelessly lacking, the entire PvE system is so rudimentary and anti-fun that it feels like a pre-beta placeholder for a proper system that fell unnoticed into a development black hole, the Dominion sov system was a failure of suicide-inducing perma-grind which has never been revisited, a good 75% of all modules in the database are hilariously useless, risk/reward balance is a joke, and the only significant isk sink appears to be when rich vets burn out and quit the game.

More worrying than the issues is the lack of progress on dealing with them. CCP at times seems caught like a rabbit in the headlights by the idea of actually applying a big picture fix - likely a consequence of the post-Incarna fallout - and would much rather nibble around the edges of what exists already while talking up a Future Vision which makes little mention of fixing the foundations. If we're lucky, the issues will be fixed as part of the roadmap - for example, if we're going to develop the ability to manufacture stargates of our own it would be an obvious opportunity to fix wider nullsec manufacturing issues as part of the package. But I don't see any clear sign that CCP are actually taking that approach.


Throw in all of your listed problems with the game to the big pot with Factional Warfare problems, POS problems, Industry interface problems, UI issues, ship balance issues, mining being a complete bore, etc etc etc. Eventually you realize that CCP will never be able to fix them all. Because they fix one thing and people will go on to complain that something else is broke or needs fixing. If they cater to one group's desires or complaints, there will be 10 more standing in line behind that griping that their problems are now being ignored and not being fixed. Then they do expansions based purely on fixing things and people gripe that there's no new content. That it was a lackluster expansion because it wasn't really an expansion but just a repair job. I'm not going to deny. I've been a part of that boat for the last couple expansions.

Point being, this whole fix this or fix that will always be a never ending story.

What I would personally just like to see is an expansion that actually EXPANDS on pre-existing content that everyone could enjoy. In this case, WiS. Instead, they are putting resources into completely new content that again I read, from the bits of news they've given us, as only being accessible by a very small contingent in Eve.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#255 - 2013-12-09 20:35:48 UTC
Ambassador Crane wrote:
(...)

What I would personally just like to see is an expansion that actually EXPANDS on pre-existing content that everyone could enjoy. In this case, WiS. Instead, they are putting resources into completely new content that again I read, from the bits of news they've given us, as only being accessible by a very small contingent in Eve.


That's my main gripe with the Hallelujah Plan; rather than be a transversal development that affects everyone, they're introducing it as a toy for nullsec uberalliances, and what an expensive toy! As it will take 3 years to be complete, and as Ripard Teg put it:

Quote:
Q: "Overall, how optimistic (or pessimistic) are you about the continuing development of EVE?"

A (Ripard Teg): (....). The basic answer to your question is "it depends." If you buy into CCP Seagull's vision of space exploration and capsuleer ownership of space that she laid out at Fanfest and consistently since then, then I think you have good reason to be very excited about developments over the next few years. Think about a movie or TV show or book that you like that had a long slow gradual build-up, laying groundwork as it went for several MAJOR pay-offs at the end -- Babylon 5, say, or Raiders of the Lost Ark. If you buy into the space colonization vision, then I can safely say that you have several HOLY **** moments ahead of you.

On the other hand, if you do not buy into the vision, then with one exception I think you may find the next few expansions to be not your cup of tea. A few scraps will fall from the table onto everyone's plate, but EVE is definitely on a journey for the next three years and you're either part of it or you're not. As I mentioned though, there is one sizeable exception that doesn't necessarily follow the space colonization vision that CCP is nevertheless going to do that I personally am quite excited about but which is quite NDA. But I suspect CCP will start letting details about this one out soon(tm).


It begs to wonder what are they thinking...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Sato Page
Auctor Illuminatas Infinitum
#256 - 2013-12-09 21:08:14 UTC
Some oculus rift based virtual strip club would undoubtedly boost subscription. Given the fact that a large portion of our players are lonely males in their sexual prime.

Dinsdale Pirannha for [u]CEO [/u]of [u]CCP[/u]
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#257 - 2013-12-09 22:09:06 UTC
Sato Page wrote:
Some oculus rift based virtual strip club would undoubtedly boost subscription. Given the fact that a large portion of our players are lonely males in their sexual prime.


I'll support this!





wait a minute...... X
Dante Rayner
State War Academy
Caldari State
#258 - 2013-12-09 23:18:01 UTC
wasn't WIS canceled? WIS just needs to be put to rest....forever
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-12-09 23:56:40 UTC
Ambassador Crane wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Off the top of my head, Industry is hopelessly lacking, the entire PvE system is so rudimentary and anti-fun that it feels like a pre-beta placeholder for a proper system that fell unnoticed into a development black hole, the Dominion sov system was a failure of suicide-inducing perma-grind which has never been revisited, a good 75% of all modules in the database are hilariously useless, risk/reward balance is a joke, and the only significant isk sink appears to be when rich vets burn out and quit the game.....


Throw in all of your listed problems with the game to the big pot with Factional Warfare problems, POS problems, Industry interface problems, UI issues, ship balance issues, mining being a complete bore, etc etc etc. .


I consider all of those things to be irritations rather than actual game-breaking flaws that need immediate and urgent action.

I also consider the lack of avatar content to be an irritation, but I rate it as a more important irritation that should be prioritized ahead of all that stuff. I know for a fact that I am not alone in this.

All of which just goes to prove that waiting for community consensus on when the time is right and in what order things should be prioritized would leave us doomed, stuck in development hell.

Personally, I feel like a cycle of working on new features for a bit then working on polish, then features, then polish would serve CCP well. I think we've had much polish and little feature of late, I hope we move into a "features" cycle soon, and I hope that cycle includes more avatar content.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#260 - 2013-12-10 07:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Stitcher wrote:
Ambassador Crane wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Off the top of my head, Industry is hopelessly lacking, the entire PvE system is so rudimentary and anti-fun that it feels like a pre-beta placeholder for a proper system that fell unnoticed into a development black hole, the Dominion sov system was a failure of suicide-inducing perma-grind which has never been revisited, a good 75% of all modules in the database are hilariously useless, risk/reward balance is a joke, and the only significant isk sink appears to be when rich vets burn out and quit the game.....


Throw in all of your listed problems with the game to the big pot with Factional Warfare problems, POS problems, Industry interface problems, UI issues, ship balance issues, mining being a complete bore, etc etc etc. .


I consider all of those things to be irritations rather than actual game-breaking flaws that need immediate and urgent action.

I also consider the lack of avatar content to be an irritation, but I rate it as a more important irritation that should be prioritized ahead of all that stuff. I know for a fact that I am not alone in this.

All of which just goes to prove that waiting for community consensus on when the time is right and in what order things should be prioritized would leave us doomed, stuck in development hell.

Personally, I feel like a cycle of working on new features for a bit then working on polish, then features, then polish would serve CCP well. I think we've had much polish and little feature of late, I hope we move into a "features" cycle soon, and I hope that cycle includes more avatar content.


Personally, I think we're in for a few more years of polish as eve is in maintenance mode. All the money and the resources are going elsewhere. I honestly don't believe that valkyrie was put together by some talented devs in their spare time and pitched to the executive board who said yes. **** like that just doesn't happen in the real world, one or two guys can make a game outside of their work, when an entire team can't fix eve or rebalance ships in one go.

plus it's made by the same team that made dust and pitched it just as their contracts were coming to an end as dust is 'finished'.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...