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Two years later: Walking in Stations

First post
Author
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#201 - 2013-12-08 20:59:49 UTC
BUMP

Not going to waste my time and pixels regurgitating stuff I've already said in other similar threads, so I'll reserve my text wall.

Just want to make a post in support of WiS.

I still believe in CCP's old mantra of wanting to be the "best sci-fi simulator" in existence. That's sci-fi sim, not just spaceship sim. Pirate

Avatar-based gameplay and/or interactions will be required to achieve this status - or even just to pursue it.

Most of those players against WiS are in fact simply fearful that CCP cannot introduce it without the spaceships game suffering as a result. They're actually not against avatar gameplay itself. So the ball rests squarely in CCP's court.

I believe we will eventually see it. It's just 'when' and not 'if'.

Suggestions for the Dev team? Well I really only have one suggestion - How can you take load off the development team, yet also introduce constant new avatar-content? Follow the example of places like IMVU and SL by seeding a derivable framework of items and allow players themselves to create the content such as rooms, clothes, items and accessories. Then go back to focussing on spaceships and let your community do the rest. Smile

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Garric Blackk
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2013-12-08 22:00:04 UTC
I like the WiS stuff but at this point they need to focus on inspace things.
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#203 - 2013-12-08 22:15:24 UTC
Garric Blackk wrote:
I like the WiS stuff but at this point they need to focus on inspace things.


When will that change, exactly? I keep seeing it said, but they've been focusing on inspace things for ten years. It's NEVER going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There is only "good enough."

So when, in your view, will EVE have reached the point that they won't need to focus on inspace things at the expense of any other option? When will inspace have been sufficiently fleshed out that you think that the game will be ready for EVE in Stations?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#204 - 2013-12-08 22:30:28 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
When will inspace have been sufficiently fleshed out that you think that the game will be ready for EVE in Stations?

When another game using the same genre successfully exceeds in content what CCP has as in game content for Eve.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2013-12-08 22:37:36 UTC
WIS would encourage more player interaction, probably induce more female players to play and make industrial/marketing/scamming aspects of the game far more interesting.

Will this be to the detriment of the "rubber ducks in bathtub physics/click and hit function key/my fit pwns your fit" PvP aspects of EVE beloved of the more macho type of nerds?

Probably not. But some people may worry.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#206 - 2013-12-08 22:57:18 UTC
dreada0 wrote:
But CCP can stick with the current player base and limit itself from growing further or it can invest in something new and reap the rewards. Its that simple.


It's actually worse than that. EvE has lived so well because the others failed.

Imagine a random game (say Star Citizen) actually gains traction. This means it'll take away players that would see SC delivered where CCP didn't and those would call their friends as well. After all if a game shows being stagnant, people are easier to jump ship (pun intended). After friends, others would start reading MMO websites talking about the new game being the new thing to play. Those guys would log in EvE to discuss with their corpies, wouldn't find them and get told "those guys switched to the new game". That's how MMOs start bleeding increasing amounts of players, causing a ripple effect that leads to development to run out of funds and stall. And then it's bad times.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#207 - 2013-12-08 23:10:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Those guys would log in EvE to discuss with their corpies, wouldn't find them and get told "those guys switched to the new game". That's how MMOs start bleeding increasing amounts of players, causing a ripple effect that leads to development to run out of funds and stall. And then it's bad times.


And then the only remunerative option for the company become F2P/P2W, that in EVE means XP packages to inject, "VIP" Implants, boosters and gold ammo.

And have fun with that ****. And good luck in keep asking for new POS system, SOV overhaul and bla bla bla...



Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2013-12-08 23:14:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Garric Blackk wrote:
I like the WiS stuff but at this point they need to focus on inspace things.


When will that change, exactly? I keep seeing it said, but they've been focusing on inspace things for ten years. It's NEVER going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There is only "good enough."

So when, in your view, will EVE have reached the point that they won't need to focus on inspace things at the expense of any other option? When will inspace have been sufficiently fleshed out that you think that the game will be ready for EVE in Stations?

When the fundamental big issues with Eve are actually tackled and resolved, rather than ignored or sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak there.

It's all very well to say they've been doing in-space content for ten years but when much of that in-space content is incomplete, flawed, and generally unsatisfactory it isn't exactly a state that encourages us to think CCP needs to start throwing resources at a whole new game-within-a-game until they've demonstrated they can finish what they started and fix what they broke.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#209 - 2013-12-08 23:38:40 UTC
The only thing I don't understand about that point of view Scatim is that if EVE is so terribly broken and incomplete as you say, with players rioting when a single update doesn't focus on their playstyle, why the heck are you playing it at all? Ugh

Surely you must love the game despite all of this. We all do. Or we wouldn't be here.

So why be so selfish? For lack of a better term. Oops

Why MUST developers focus 110% of their attention on a single playstyle-aspect of the game "or else"?

EVE is more than that. Or rather it could be and should be. We all have our individual visions for how we'd like EVE to be. I'd love to see avatar-based content but I'm just as excited as you are for fresh spaceship content too, and fixes.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#210 - 2013-12-08 23:51:38 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Garric Blackk wrote:
I like the WiS stuff but at this point they need to focus on inspace things.


When will that change, exactly? I keep seeing it said, but they've been focusing on inspace things for ten years. It's NEVER going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There is only "good enough."

So when, in your view, will EVE have reached the point that they won't need to focus on inspace things at the expense of any other option? When will inspace have been sufficiently fleshed out that you think that the game will be ready for EVE in Stations?

When the fundamental big issues with Eve are actually tackled and resolved, rather than ignored or sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak there.

It's all very well to say they've been doing in-space content for ten years but when much of that in-space content is incomplete, flawed, and generally unsatisfactory it isn't exactly a state that encourages us to think CCP needs to start throwing resources at a whole new game-within-a-game until they've demonstrated they can finish what they started and fix what they broke.


Let's face it though. This will never happen. I'm not saying CCP isn't capable. Or that what you think is flawed or unsatisfactory can't be fixed or made better. But as soon as they appease you, there will be another crop of people saying something else is broke or needs significant improvement, because we all see our own way of how things should be.

I would personally love to see some improvements and changes such as a total overhaul of the O.O sov or an overhaul of the POS (modular POS hell yeah) But instead of putting effort into that, we get focus being put on a new feature of building stargates to new systems. And from the way they talk about this stargate construction, I have a hard time seeing it being something open to the entirety of Eve, such that wormholes offered. Instead, it sounds like something only a few people in Null, whoever the biggest powerbloc is (which I'm sure we all see as being the CFC) being the only ones who get to experience this new content.

So to me the development of WiS would be something everyone could experience and enjoy. You want to focus on flying internet spaceships? Go for it. That will never go away. You worried that nobody will ever undock? Highly unlikely. Same people that spend most of their eve time in station will stay in station. Some will lose focus on spaceships and spend more time in stations sure, but I personally think it will draw even more people to Eve and make our favorite sci-fi MMO a deeper, more immersive experience.

So how do I picture WiS? I don't picture it replacing our spaceships. We are pod pilots. Our main reason for existence is flying our massive ships into combat. Whether it be to control nullsec sovereignty or to fight off the nasty Serpentis or Guristas. So no, I don't think there should be missions based entirely in-station. There shouldn't be close quarters combat or in-station gun fights. A game of cards or chess, sure. Mini-games like that would be cool. But leave the actual combat in space.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#211 - 2013-12-09 00:00:20 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
It's all very well to say they've been doing in-space content for ten years but when much of that in-space content is incomplete, flawed, and generally unsatisfactory it isn't exactly a state that encourages us to think CCP needs to start throwing resources at a whole new game-within-a-game until they've demonstrated they can finish what they started and fix what they broke.


Yes, but the resources are already thrown to whole new games: Dust, WoD, Valkyrie... and who knows what else... And is not for game-within-a game, but just totally new game, not integrated, not in line with EVE standards and not even on the same platform.

No resource here to fight for, only crumbs. Is clear as anything relevant will be ignored for long time, maybe forever, excpet little things that can be "sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak".

The first goal should be to bring EVE resources back. And to have a chance have to be for something giving to CCP a chance to extend gameplay and grow.

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#212 - 2013-12-09 00:03:58 UTC
My EVE is all about wormholes, with some roleplay too.

I personally don't care two cents about Sov, null, etc, etc.

I don't argue that wormholes should be CCPs main focus. I don't riot when an update comes out with no WH content.

I love EVE as it is right now. I have fun each time I login. Spending time fixing Sov issues, or bringing out an update that's all about lowsec ain't gonna effect my existing enjoyment a bit. I appreciate that there's many aspects to EVE, that everyone plays different and dreams of future uodates to the parts they enjoy. I appreciate that games as a whole will warp and change development direction over time (like anything in life).

So why do those opposed to WiS not appreciate those same things? Is your scope of ingame enjoyment really that narrow? Does your enjoyment truly hinge so finitely on update content? If so then again I can't understand why you're still here.

Unless it's all just a cover story, a leverage argument. In which case what are you truly afraid of with WiS?

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2013-12-09 00:27:54 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
When the fundamental big issues with Eve are actually tackled and resolved, rather than ignored or sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak there.

It's all very well to say they've been doing in-space content for ten years but when much of that in-space content is incomplete, flawed, and generally unsatisfactory it isn't exactly a state that encourages us to think CCP needs to start throwing resources at a whole new game-within-a-game until they've demonstrated they can finish what they started and fix what they broke.


Could you maybe give specific examples? It's all well and good saying that "much of the in-space content is incomplete" but A: we're coming back around to the issue of different resources (balancing a ship or creating a more interesting version of mining uses a very different skillset to what would be used in producing EiS) and B: different people seem to disagree wildly on what it is, exactly, that needs fixing.

I mean, what ARE the fundamental big issues with EVE? I personally don't really see any. I see minor irritations - the corp interface is opaque and unwieldy but it works, POSes could do with an overhaul but they're hardly a BIG problem. ECM needs an overhaul but again, what we have right now isn't exactly catastrophic... FacWar is ticking over nicely (albeit it's not great from an RP perspective, but you can't have everything), Incursions work as intended (again, they don't make a whole lot of sense from an RP point of view, but even speaking as a roleplayer myself I can't really call that a "fundamental big issue")....

Weapons seem largely balanced, ships seem mostly balanced (yes, I know, condors and crows, but can that REALLY be called a "fundamental big issue"?) Everyone seems to love the Tengu more than the other tech 3s but that's more down to metagame, I think. There are no tech 3 frigates and battleships, but that's not a major problem so much as a wishlist item. Mining is boring as hell but so many people do it that the boredom doesn't seem to be a game-breaking issue. The same goes for missions.

Again, we're back to subjective values here, because in my view one of the few remaining fundamental flaws with EVE is just how nonexistent the avatar gameplay is. We have a room, and we can change our clothes - that's it. There's literally zero PvP potential in the system as it is, which means that thus far all the effort that went into making WiS in the first place HAS gone to waste. I want EVE in Stations (EiS) not a closet with a mirror.

If any spaceborne feature were so completely underdeveloped there'd be hissing and spitting all over the forums. But because it's not a spaceborne feature, there's this notion that it's not a problem for it to be neglected like this, and lots of people actively WANT it to be ignored, which I don't get.

I mean, there was hissing and spitting about it being underdeveloped anyway. But what I really, REALLY don't understand is why the reaction to that has been to leave it underdeveloped rather than actually develop it. If people throw a rage party over how incomplete a feature is, my reaction would be to complete it, post haste. Not to leave it as-is for the foreseeable future.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#214 - 2013-12-09 00:55:09 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Garric Blackk wrote:
I like the WiS stuff but at this point they need to focus on inspace things.


When will that change, exactly? I keep seeing it said, but they've been focusing on inspace things for ten years. It's NEVER going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. There is only "good enough."

So when, in your view, will EVE have reached the point that they won't need to focus on inspace things at the expense of any other option? When will inspace have been sufficiently fleshed out that you think that the game will be ready for EVE in Stations?

When the fundamental big issues with Eve are actually tackled and resolved, rather than ignored or sidestepped with a new widget here and a stat tweak there.

It's all very well to say they've been doing in-space content for ten years but when much of that in-space content is incomplete, flawed, and generally unsatisfactory it isn't exactly a state that encourages us to think CCP needs to start throwing resources at a whole new game-within-a-game until they've demonstrated they can finish what they started and fix what they broke.


So what do you think future devs are going to be saying in ten years time about the new deployable structures? Today's super awesome and amazing code is tomorrow's outdated and unworkable crap fit only for the recycle bin. Eve could stay in maintenance mode for ever according to your post.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#215 - 2013-12-09 01:01:20 UTC
That's true ^^

I think a big question folks need to ask themselves when discussing WiS is:

If CCP announced that they would never be releasing another update, that the current EVE right now (today) is how EVE is going to stay forever, would you leave or would you still play?

I'd still play. Because I have a **** ton of fun in the EVE of today.

If your answer is the same, you'd stay, then what's the problem with developing WiS??

If your answer is no, you'd leave, then it sounds like you don't much enjoy EVE as it is right now, you're not having fun and are only here for the pure chance that it might take a future development direction that you like.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#216 - 2013-12-09 01:17:56 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
If your answer is no, you'd leave, then it sounds like you don't much enjoy EVE as it is right now, you're not having fun and are only here for the pure chance that it might take a future development direction that you like.


In which case why not welcome any and all expansions, no matter the content, on the hope that they may be the one to introduce the final element to make it all fall into place and start being fun for you?

Excellent point, well made.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

P3ps1 Max
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2013-12-09 02:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: P3ps1 Max
I've always thought adding WiS would be great for the game but I agree it was poorly implemented. I thought they would go the direction of earning a Captain's quarter (Through Pve Loyalty points and/or Factional Warfare) and then purchase at a designated station. Instead it was open for everyone and at each station you docked at. Then I thought the "walking in station" part was like an open lobby with bars and stuff for everyone at "each station" to meet up or party up. ... .. .. . .. . . . .
Naydra Adni
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-12-09 09:29:38 UTC
I don't want to emote. I don't want to /dance. I don't want to "dress up" in nex clothes and show off. I don't want to play chess/cards/whatever
I want to dock in a station, strap on a side arm, slip a blade in my boot and walk down to the seedy bar on the lower level of a station., I want to head to the dark back corner where someone even more seedy is sitting at a table waiting and we work out a contract for moving some contraband. I want to speak face to face with an agent. I want to walk up to a shop owner and haggle over the price of some officer mod.. I want to turn a corner and see 5 guys from some corp with bad standings to me standing around down the corridor and think "ah crap!" I want immersion. if other people want the eve version of 2nd life fine. they can play their eve their way.. I wanna play my eve my way.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#219 - 2013-12-09 09:35:13 UTC
Naydra Adni wrote:
if other people want the eve version of 2nd life fine.


Thats what you just asked for.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Naydra Adni
Doomheim
#220 - 2013-12-09 10:21:14 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Naydra Adni wrote:
if other people want the eve version of 2nd life fine.


Thats what you just asked for.


well I've never played 2nd life.. seen bits of it shown here and there and to me it looked like "hey guys, come to my house.. we'll dance and emote all night long! look at my clothes.. aren't they super special!?!" not my thing but I wouldn't deny others enjoying eve that way.
I want an extension of eve outside of the pod.. more than the static CQ room. the old interface would still be there for contracts, market, agents.. click, click, click.. it's cool if you want to click windows forever. but to me it seems very impersonal.. I'd like the simulation to be fully fleshed out.. if I have a day off and want to walk, teleport, tram, elevator over to an agent or store.. more fun for me.. if I'm in a hurry I'll click the old "accept/deny" buttons.
if you see that as eve/2nd life then that's your view.. I see it as a deeper level of immersion