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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1041 - 2011-11-21 13:31:53 UTC
CCP, please update the op in this thread to highlight all the changes to blasters and not just the addendum of changes added recently

and

Buff null for all gun sizes.

plzkthx!
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1042 - 2011-11-21 18:36:58 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
You are having difficulties for many reasons.
  1. Battleships does not belong in lv 3 missions because of numebr 2
  2. Big weapons are designed to hit battleships and larger
  3. Railgun and especially 425mm have bad tracking so stay at range
    4. - > (warp to range when possible, snipe fast stuff first and use drones for the rest)


this is what I do. and it works. my problem was with the blaster, not the rails for level 3's.


Quote:
  • Being capstable with MWD beats the purpose and should be reserved for very few ships

    • At no point do I think gallente battleships need to be capstable on MWD. I was asking if they COULD, because if yes, then my 2 Isk on boosting MWD speed bonus as a racial ability changes it from a rush in and attack to being more minmatar than minmatar. Not my idea of a great fix, necessarily. I think MWD being atrocious power hogs makes this potentially feasible.

    Quote:
  • PvP is a toally different game, but yes gallente need the sprint option which in my opinion should be a combination of low mass, high agility and low cap making MWD clean your cap out fast (active rep boats should have more cap though)

    • Pinky


    Active rep boats are all gallente ships unless you're porting logistics, and even then, the logistics can only repair so many ships at a time. I'm not going to claim expert on PvP because my experience with PvP involves losing a couple ships to the gatecamps.

    Oh well, went and bought new ships and figured out how to bypass the gatecamp.

    But as far as I was thinking, you can active rep, or you can MWD, I don't thinks gall ships can do both for very long. 600 cap every what, ten seconds if a pretty ferocious rate for MWD. even once you knock it down to 450/10 sec with skills your capacitor doesn't last too long and if you active rep while running MWD we need to send ya back to capsuleer boot camp.

    Giving the Gallente a speed boost from the MWD and NO mitigation for the capacitor consumption might be a good way to go for allowing ships to tub into blaster range without encroaching on the minmatar high-constant speed.
    Maxsim Goratiev
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1043 - 2011-11-21 18:41:31 UTC
    Kaylyis wrote:

    But as far as I was thinking, you can active rep, or you can MWD, I don't thinks gall ships can do both for very long. 600 cap every what, ten seconds if a pretty ferocious rate for MWD. even once you knock it down to 450/10 sec with skills your capacitor doesn't last too long and if you active rep while running MWD we need to send ya back to capsuleer boot camp.

    Well, apparently Someone did not realize that running MWD, Dual reps and 8 capacitor consuming guns at the same time is not a good idea.
    Kaylyis
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1044 - 2011-11-21 18:51:28 UTC
    Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
    Kaylyis wrote:

    But as far as I was thinking, you can active rep, or you can MWD, I don't thinks gall ships can do both for very long. 600 cap every what, ten seconds if a pretty ferocious rate for MWD. even once you knock it down to 450/10 sec with skills your capacitor doesn't last too long and if you active rep while running MWD we need to send ya back to capsuleer boot camp.

    Well, apparently Someone did not realize that running MWD, Dual reps and 8 capacitor consuming guns at the same time is not a good idea.


    hence why in my original post... you get in range, you use the webber/scram/both, and you turn the MWD OFF. Hence why I say sprinting. Get into range fast, turn off the speed, rock out your guns. Hope to hell you can kill them before they evac because once you start shooting if they get outta range you're pretty well screwed in the cap department
    Dare Devel
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1045 - 2011-11-21 19:00:11 UTC
    SMT008 wrote:
    Also, capboosters exist for a reason.

    Amarr ships have capboosters fitted.

    Gallente have more medslots than Amarrs => Fit capboosters.



    Yes you are absolutely correct.

    Heavy Cap booster is a must for a blaster boat along with.
    1) A prop mod.
    2) A webbing mod.
    3) A scram Mod.
    4) A Tracking Mod.

    Now how many Abbadons fit all of the above ???

    It is very easy to criticise others.
    Vincent Gaines
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1046 - 2011-11-21 19:02:54 UTC
    Kaylyis wrote:
    Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
    Kaylyis wrote:

    But as far as I was thinking, you can active rep, or you can MWD, I don't thinks gall ships can do both for very long. 600 cap every what, ten seconds if a pretty ferocious rate for MWD. even once you knock it down to 450/10 sec with skills your capacitor doesn't last too long and if you active rep while running MWD we need to send ya back to capsuleer boot camp.

    Well, apparently Someone did not realize that running MWD, Dual reps and 8 capacitor consuming guns at the same time is not a good idea.


    hence why in my original post... you get in range, you use the webber/scram/both, and you turn the MWD OFF. Hence why I say sprinting. Get into range fast, turn off the speed, rock out your guns. Hope to hell you can kill them before they evac because once you start shooting if they get outta range you're pretty well screwed in the cap department



    Yep, I would love to have a mega MWD towards my curse.. that way since he'll be down to 1/4 cap I can empty him in 1 cycle instead of 2.

    Cool

    Not a diplo. 

    The above post was edited for spelling.
    Kaylyis
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1047 - 2011-11-21 19:09:28 UTC


    that's great. I love how people read "I'm kinda new" as "I'm a complete F*cking idiot that doesn't understand the basics and must explain to them in most basic terms the concept they have already shown basic grasp of."

    I was asking if gallente ships can be rendered cap stable fitted MWDs, because if they CAN there is no sane reason to give them the suggested speed boost to MWD velocity. Addressing the idea of getting a blaster boat into engagement range, not asking for fitting advice. I've gotten a cap booster and am dickering around with how best to employ it.

    Which leaves the question: Can gallente cruisers, battleships and battlecruisers be fitted with an MWD and stay cap stable or retain cap long enough that an MWD speed boost would be OP? If I had more experience (especially with cap boosters) I wouldn't have asked.
    Mekhana
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1048 - 2011-11-21 19:28:29 UTC
    You mean with all modules active? No. Gallente doesn't have as much cap problems as Amarr but we can still get screwed over without proper cap management.

    When you are buffer tanked most of your cap is spent on MWD and guns. And keeping those running will dry you out of 800s quite quickly.

    Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
    Kaylyis
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1049 - 2011-11-21 19:38:08 UTC
    Vincent Gaines wrote:
    Kaylyis wrote:
    Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
    Kaylyis wrote:

    But as far as I was thinking, you can active rep, or you can MWD, I don't thinks gall ships can do both for very long. 600 cap every what, ten seconds if a pretty ferocious rate for MWD. even once you knock it down to 450/10 sec with skills your capacitor doesn't last too long and if you active rep while running MWD we need to send ya back to capsuleer boot camp.

    Well, apparently Someone did not realize that running MWD, Dual reps and 8 capacitor consuming guns at the same time is not a good idea.


    hence why in my original post... you get in range, you use the webber/scram/both, and you turn the MWD OFF. Hence why I say sprinting. Get into range fast, turn off the speed, rock out your guns. Hope to hell you can kill them before they evac because once you start shooting if they get outta range you're pretty well screwed in the cap department



    Yep, I would love to have a mega MWD towards my curse.. that way since he'll be down to 1/4 cap I can empty him in 1 cycle instead of 2.

    Cool


    If Someone MWDs towards your curse alone because they brought the knife to a gunfight? They deserve to die horribly.

    The question of getting into engagement rage doesn't have the same answer as "is getting into engagement range alone a good idea?"

    MWD speed boosts would make blaster boats viable as pack hunters, but not so much for solo PvP. Unless you're brilliant and have an easy counter for cap neuts. One megathron charging you puts himself at a disadvantage to get you to where he can use his teeth. Rather like wolves, you just shoot him incoming. the equation changes if you have to deal with 2, 3 5, 10 or 50 of them doing a hard burn straight at you. That's the angle I'm looking at the problem from.

    Why make galente solo gankers? there's other ships for that which do the job better. But if the tactic enables a better fleet usage than solo they'll still take losses but good luck alpha killing all of them before they're on top of you. Might encourage fleets to bring a mixed bag of ships since unless I'm mistaken MWDs can be killed by warp scrams.

    Send the tacklers after the gallente chasers to keep as many of them as you can out of engage range while drilling them as much as you can. but the Command & Conquer blob of identical units is gonna get stormed under because if they're killing a couple of them every 15-30 seconds they still wind up with a majority of close range berserkers inside their lines, or they have to warp out and abandon the attack.
    Kaylyis
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1050 - 2011-11-21 19:41:03 UTC
    Mekhana wrote:
    You mean with all modules active? No. Gallente doesn't have as much cap problems as Amarr but we can still get screwed over without proper cap management.

    When you are buffer tanked most of your cap is spent on MWD and guns. And keeping those running will dry you out of 800s quite quickly.




    which is why I suggest making the prevailing engagement tactic of MWD speed boost. Blasters get close, disengage MWD (this is the important part) and start slamming their tackle gear and cap boosters while they start cutting things up.

    Is this viable solo? Yeah, if your opponent's stupid enough to let you get that close. But I think it's a better fleet solution than a solo solution because a pack of wolves is gonna get the farmer with the shotgun, where one wolf probably isn't.
    ClusterFook
    Doomheim
    #1051 - 2011-11-21 21:19:22 UTC
    Well im pretty sure they are done "balancing" hybrids. You know what they say you cant polish a terd. Redesigning them with any of the numerouse great ideas put forth would take actual effort, Instead we are given some very basic stat changes.
    Honestly i think i have put more thought and effort into thoery crafting a fix for hybrids than CCP has in impementing their "balance."
    I wonder how much coding they still do at CCP for EVE? Crusible seems to be vastly all art and superficial changes.

    Oh well nothing to see ehre move along back to Mimatar
    Maxsim Goratiev
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1052 - 2011-11-21 21:20:04 UTC
    Kaylyis wrote:

    I was asking if gallente ships can be rendered cap stable fitted MWDs, because if they CAN there is no sane reason to give them the suggested speed boost to MWD velocity. Addressing the idea of getting a blaster boat into engagement range, not asking for fitting advice. I've gotten a cap booster and am dickering around with how best to employ it..

    All frigates can permanently run MWD quite easilly, however let's leave frigates out of this because they generally don;t have trouble getting in range.
    Cruisers can be made cap stable while MWD'ing, but you are sacrafacing quite a lot of your slots and fitting in many cases, so your ship will be weaker than most of the competition. For pvp they can run the mwd for quite a while with a cap booster.

    BS run out of cap while mwd'ing very quickly, and whlist rood skills and a bunch of cap rechargers will allow you to permanently run mwd, that ship will be much weaker in pve (because it just sacrificed half of all it's slots for this) and pretty much useless in pvp.

    Autonomous Monster
    Paradox Interstellar
    #1053 - 2011-11-21 21:53:43 UTC
    Kaylyis wrote:
    Which leaves the question: Can gallente cruisers, battleships and battlecruisers be fitted with an MWD and stay cap stable or retain cap long enough that an MWD speed boost would be OP? If I had more experience (especially with cap boosters) I wouldn't have asked.


    What?

    Hmm.

    Well, if it's possible anywhere, it'll be possible on the Thorax or one of its derivatives...

    ...

    Okay, here we go. I'll just start by saying that I haven't spent a lot of time with HACs, and none of these are as tanky as I'd like on a 100M uninsurable ship- so I doubt I'll be winning any prizes for these. But:

    http://i.imgur.com/EQLoX.png

    First varient; works by cap regen alone. This means it can use those two mids for web/scram instead of a cap booster, and it's the fastest of all of them- but with the thinnest tank. I think you can squeeze 250mm IIs on there. You'll have to drop to meta on some of the stuff in the lows and maybe grab a grid implant, but it's doable. (wtf are rails using more grid than blasters for? I feel for the Caldari, I do)

    http://i.imgur.com/XEZhn.png

    Second varient; drops the scram (or web; pick whichever you prefer) for a cap booster and the CCCs for Trimarks. Advantage: ~20% more tank; disadvantage; ~9% less speed. 250s is... trickier. Again, you can make a lot of savings in CPU if you need to, but there's not a lot you can do about grid short of going down a plate size. I think a PG8 will work... but I'm too lazy to check Lol

    http://i.imgur.com/wf2Ff.png

    Third varient; drops to Ions and grabs a PG6 to go up a plate size. MOAR BUFFER. 250s, not a prayer. Probably not even 200s Sad. Happily, it's not significantly less tanky than the others, though it does lose a substantial amount of range.

    Options for splurging (Big smile): IN EANMs, FN Mag Stabs, and, pricier still, deadspace MWDs and T2 rigs.

    This is viable primarily because, the derpy way the 'Rax's MWD bonus works, with high skills the cap penalty of high meta MWDs becomes a bonus. LolBig smile. No, it's not just bug in EFT/pyfa, I just tested this on Sisi.

    (And yeah, none of these are active tanking fits- good luck with thatLol)
    Magosian
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #1054 - 2011-11-21 21:54:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
    Kaylyis wrote:
    Ok I fly gallente, and I adore the megathron hulls. But they're ohmygod pregnant-whale sluggish. I'm not at everything elite and in order to survive level 3 missions I have to use a battleship....


    Nothing else beyond here matters.

    There is Eve Survival, who dedicates its entire site explaining how to run missions, as well as a wealth of knowledge on Battleclinic on how to create effective PVE fits. Combine those two with some decent skills and that is really all you will ever need up through level 4 missions. I'm not sure why you would start talking about PVE here, but since you've already drawn the attention....Gallente and Caldari are absolutely fine in the PVE department. The shortcomings are largely noticed when other players are literally flying circles around you, while literally shooting you at ranges hybrids cannot match. That's why this thread exists.

    I figured the title of this thread: "Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets," implies a PVP problem with hybrids. Please don't derail this thread.
    M1AU
    Zappenduster Inc.
    #1055 - 2011-11-21 22:22:50 UTC
    Magosian wrote:
    Kaylyis wrote:
    Ok I fly gallente, and I adore the megathron hulls. But they're ohmygod pregnant-whale sluggish. I'm not at everything elite and in order to survive level 3 missions I have to use a battleship....


    Nothing else beyond here matters.

    There is Eve Survival, who dedicates its entire site explaining how to run missions, as well as a wealth of knowledge on Battleclinic on how to create effective PVE fits. Combine those two with some decent skills and that is really all you will ever need up through level 4 missions. I'm not sure why you would start talking about PVE here, but since you've already drawn the attention....Gallente and Caldari are absolutely fine in the PVE department. The shortcomings are largely noticed when other players are literally flying circles around you, while literally shooting you at ranges hybrids cannot match. That's why this thread exists.

    I figured the title of this thread: "Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets," implies a PVP problem with hybrids. Please don't derail this thread.


    I think it's a PVE problem too. I for example fly some lvl4s from time to time and generally fly only Gallente ships, with exception to the Tengu which i traind just recently. And while I have over 10m sp only in gunnery support skills and hybrid, the performance in PVE still lucks by a fair amount compared to my low skills in missiles, flying the Tengu...
    It really is no fun to play when you need the range and use rails instead of blaster, but can't track any rat as soon as it comes near 20-30km. Just saying in my opinion Hybrids are under performed even in PVE environments.
    Zarak1 Kenpach1
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1056 - 2011-11-21 22:57:55 UTC
    if you are gallente, why on earth would you consider using something other than a drone boat for missions? infinite ammo...

    i'm with the guy calling you out for derailment
    Maxsim Goratiev
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1057 - 2011-11-21 23:24:10 UTC
    Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
    if you are gallente, why on earth would you consider using something other than a drone boat for missions? infinite ammo...

    i'm with the guy calling you out for derailment

    Every time i have to do the following highly entertaining sequence:
    Warp in
    Activate gate
    Turn on reppers
    Aggro everything
    Release drones
    Go watch something on youtube
    check for $$$$$ in 10-15 minutes

    However, even though this sequence is really involving and highly engaging, after flying dominix and doing this for a bout 3 years i am getting a little bored. The only thing that changed in 3 years, is me having to check for isk more frequently cause my skills improved. So i would like some changge.

    PvE is kinda part of the game. ATM i have guns taht reach to 180 km, and guns that don;t reach anywhere at all. WIth the improved javeling it will get a little better, but it's still annoying, dornes end up killing most of the rats even if you fly a gunship.
    Mekhana
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1058 - 2011-11-21 23:43:44 UTC
    Do missions in low sec?

    Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
    Chi Quan
    Bibkor Enterprises
    #1059 - 2011-11-22 00:41:17 UTC
    Mekhana wrote:
    Do missions in low sec?

    how is that supposed to help balancing hybrids?

    -- Please like me, I'm an attention w*ore.
    Kaylyis
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1060 - 2011-11-22 01:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaylyis
    Magosian wrote:
    Kaylyis wrote:
    Ok I fly gallente, and I adore the megathron hulls. But they're ohmygod pregnant-whale sluggish. I'm not at everything elite and in order to survive level 3 missions I have to use a battleship....


    Nothing else beyond here matters.

    There is Eve Survival, who dedicates its entire site explaining how to run missions, as well as a wealth of knowledge on Battleclinic on how to create effective PVE fits. Combine those two with some decent skills and that is really all you will ever need up through level 4 missions. I'm not sure why you would start talking about PVE here, but since you've already drawn the attention....Gallente and Caldari are absolutely fine in the PVE department. The shortcomings are largely noticed when other players are literally flying circles around you, while literally shooting you at ranges hybrids cannot match. That's why this thread exists.

    I figured the title of this thread: "Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets," implies a PVP problem with hybrids. Please don't derail this thread.


    *Snerk*

    This wasn't a request for advice on how to survive level 4's, I already know what fit and skills I need. It was more a commentary on how hard it was to currently get into engagement with blasters combined with issues spelled out earlier as an exampIe. weighed in on improving the ships to get into blaster engagement range. Do I think CCP will use the idea? Not a chance in hell. but them's the breaks.

    Just cause someone's new doesn't mean they're an idiot.

    I leave the number crunching on the actual buffs to the Blasters and rails to you all, because you all know those numbers better. I'm more concerned with delivery, because if ya can't get in range, then the numbers are more or less meaningless.