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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2011-11-20 17:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Pinky Denmark wrote:
1: Hyperion and other tier 3 BS are not supposed to be ultimate anything - They are supposed to be strong battleships dedicated to survive a punishment that would make other battleships explode while doing good dps.
Each race has a dps battleship already that is designed for damage (armageddon, raven, megathron/dominix, Tempest/Typhoon) so plz don't come here tell me Hyperion is supposed to be the ultimate blasterboat that should do more dps.
(And yes the dominix is an amazingly versatile fast battleship that can do a lot of dps with a stupid hard tank)


You missed the quotation marks there. I just think the Hyperion needs to be a better fleet ship. Like the Maelstrom and the Abaddon. The Scorpion could use a buff as well regarding survivability, generally, decent logi has trouble keeping it alive. Both the Hyperion and the Scorpion need to be brought up to par with Maelstrom and Abaddon as mainstay fleet ships.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1022 - 2011-11-20 17:25:45 UTC
i plan on using the vig as a point man for armor gangs. with the capability to bring a target that is mwd'ing around down to 25m/s or lower at 14km (fed navy webs), my collegues will be applying nearly perfect damage. in this way, it is far superior to the cynabal since A) the cynabal cannot armor tank B)the web bonus of the vig lets my heaviest hitting t3's in gang do full dps C) it can finally have a reasonable tank and compete with the other t3's and pirate ships we fly dps wise.

comparing a cynabal and vigilant is analogous to comparing a race car to a bear trap. they have two completely different applications.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1023 - 2011-11-20 17:31:50 UTC
Only reason you are touching the Vigilante in the first place is the web bonus isn't?

Sorry bro but three ships that require Gallente ship skills to fly them, doesn't make up for the all the others.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1024 - 2011-11-20 17:34:57 UTC
that and the fact i'll be able to do 800~ while doing it.

i've said it before in this thread and i'll say it again. its not my fault you all fail at getting money.

imo t1/t2 suck urethra compared to t3 and *most* pirate ships.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1025 - 2011-11-20 17:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
That's pretty funny.

Hey bro, everyone can fly a Vigilante and afford to lose it. Those that can't would just sell a plex anyway.

You think this is 2006?

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1026 - 2011-11-20 20:34:13 UTC
not my problem
Delphineas Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#1027 - 2011-11-20 20:44:16 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
that and the fact i'll be able to do 800~ while doing it.

i've said it before in this thread and i'll say it again. its not my fault you all fail at getting money.

imo t1/t2 suck urethra compared to t3 and *most* pirate ships.



So Rokh > Raven?
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1028 - 2011-11-21 00:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev
Ok, so here everybody is screaming about hybridss lacking damage projection. Others argue that it's balanced. Meanwhile I am very surprised nobody noticed that Null is messed up. Think about it:
Vast majority of effective weapons range for lasers is in optima; buffing optimal by 50%(scorch) is buffing the laser range by almost 50%. That is a very large boost.
If almost the entire range of autocanons is in faloff, and you buff faloff by 50%, you are extending the range of autocanons by almost half.
If blasters depend on both optimal and falloff, buffing both of them by 25% just leaves it at that, 25% extension. That is not much. Range of null is worse than long-range t1 ammo.
So to prove that it's not rubbish i will support it with numbers:

Weapon -----------------------Effective range (km) -------------Long-range ammo (km)--------Range improvement
Mega Pulse Laser I.......................24 + 8.....=32..................36+ 8......=44.............................37.5%
800mm Repeating Artillery II.............4.8+19.2 =24.................4.8+28.8..=33.6...........................40.0%
Neutron Blaster Cannon II...............7.20+10 .=17.2...............9+12.5.....=21.5..........................25.0%

So not only do we have shortest range weapons, we also have the shortest bonus. Solution is obvious: up the range bonus on null to 37.5 or 40%. This just makes things fair.

Please do something about this CCP.

Second problem: please increase warp-to range, the current one prevents use of rails in sniping.


Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

comparing a cynabal and vigilant is analogous to comparing a race car to a bear trap. they have two completely different applications.

Good one Big smile
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
not my problem

95% of the time i fly drone ships. I should ignore the whole thread?
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1029 - 2011-11-21 01:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarak1 Kenpach1
you took my last quote of context.

Quote:
Mekhana
Posted: 2011.11.20 17:43

That's pretty funny.

Hey bro, everyone can fly a Vigilante and afford to lose it. Those that can't would just sell a plex anyway.

You think this is 2006?


this guy was alluding to the fact that its not 2006 and folks arent rolling in it IRL anymore

to which i said not my problem.

if you fly drone boats and love it then you really havent got much to be complaining about anyways. your secondary weapon systems are alot better now. i was checking them out on eft and if they are flown as dps/buffer setups in gangs they are pushing some of the best numbers in each ship class now.

i do agree with you completely on the null issue however. that one change would make a great deal of difference in the applicability of blasters for most users.
ClusterFook
Doomheim
#1030 - 2011-11-21 02:16:24 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:



Isn't your corp the one that used exploits to gain a metric fuckton of isk in c6's...?
No wonder you dont care about losing ships you probably have tens of billions lying around from when you used Blasters Boats with void to hit out at 150km+ doing wrecking blows everytime becuase of said exploits.

I think your opinion on balance is a bit skewed, at the very least your opinions on such are dismisable.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1031 - 2011-11-21 02:58:14 UTC
I used the cane with hail actually. i even made quite a few peoples ships instapop using this too. the best part was the insta lock part of it.

i made so much i single handedly drove up plex prices this month Lol
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#1032 - 2011-11-21 05:21:46 UTC
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
Ok, so here everybody is screaming about hybridss lacking damage projection. Others argue that it's balanced. Meanwhile I am very surprised nobody noticed that Null is messed up. Think about it:
Vast majority of effective weapons range for lasers is in optima; [b]buffing optimal by 50%(scorch) is buffing the laser range by almost 50%. That is a very large boost.
I think many people pointed this travesty out many times.... An person from Iceland who passed 7th grade algebra should have been able to figure it out a long time ago.


Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1033 - 2011-11-21 05:30:40 UTC
buffing Null would swiftly make blaster boats balanced. i guess common sense is too much to ask for.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1034 - 2011-11-21 06:36:07 UTC
If they buffed Null I mite have to change my opion on Hybirds Shocked

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1035 - 2011-11-21 08:24:11 UTC
A null buff would be pretty :unsmith:
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1036 - 2011-11-21 08:27:42 UTC
After much, much extensive testing. It is my opinion that while it is an improvement on hybrids; it is simply not good enough. I am just happy I cross trained for Minmitar and projectile weapons.

Trust in the rust.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1037 - 2011-11-21 09:50:26 UTC
buffing Null ammunition might not be a bad idea, however simply giving it more range or damage will just make it work like autocannons which might be good, but also wrong... But then again I miss the days where we just had T1 ammunition and some rare faction ammo from faction spawns Cry
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1038 - 2011-11-21 10:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaylyis
Ok I fly gallente, and I adore the megathron hulls. But they're ohmygod pregnant-whale sluggish. I'm not at everything elite and in order to survive level 3 missions I have to use a battleship. From what I'm reading I'm guessing this is normal.

But since I'm not captain number cruncher and I don't know all the relevant and viable fits yet, I have to ask...

Is it actually possible to fit a gallente blaster boat (specifically battleships) with a viable combat loadout and be cap-stable with a microwarp drive?

All of my dickering around with EFT and such (with all skills set to 5 which I most assuredly do NOT have) indicates that a gallente blaster boat with 5 mid slots and a Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive and 4 cap rechargers runs out of capacitor after 5 minutes, give or take.

I do not know how the cap boosters fit well in the equation, I'm still learning. Someone else please field this.

Now, for PvP fleets and such I guarantee you don't want to take a 300 million ISK module like the Gist X-type MWD on a commit or die battleship, so that 5 minutes drops sharply with other MWDs because the Gist has the lowest capacitor penalty and activation cost per cycle by craptons. And this cap check was done without any activated low or mid-slot modules, just guns, a MWD and 4 capacitor rechargers of the Ammatar Navy variety. So your mileage may vary, especially if, like me you're rocking tracking computers and webbers and all sorts of other stuff like hardeners.

People are calling for Gallente to have burst speed capability, why not simply put a +% speed bonus to microwarp drives as a racial ability? I've dicked around with the philosophy in tranquility and while it's absolutely great for getting in close and snatching level 3 rats with a webber, it only works once or twice before you cap-screw yourself. Bear in mind I haven't messed with it overmuch.

This gives gallente the sprint ability without taking away the overall spiffyness of minmatar speed. The tradeoff is, this is gonna be a short ride, you arrive at target with significantly reduced cap and if you don't turn OFF the MWD once you get close you kill yourself as soon as you light up any other module faster than a neut-happy bhaalgorn could ever dream of.

Add to this, no reduction in signature penalty on the MWD and yer taking more damage on the way in. . Which means a gallente ship will be coming in fast and hard, taking more damage from long-range fire and then once out of MWD and in range, pray to god the active tank kicks in before you lose the rest of your ship.

Oh. by the way, get that webber and scram online or you lose forever.

But making the blasters the hardest-hitting weapon in EVE by a wide margin hardly seems unfair, given they require suicide ranges and left as they are the gallente boats just do not have any real capacity to close any gap with anyone. I think with my current skills I can reach like... 505 M/s. And by the time I hit 505 I have to shut the bastard off because it drains cap so fast (still using tech 1 MWDs)

Now, I am hardly an expert here, and I'm relatively certain that someone here can point out glaring flaws in my theory, and I welcome it. The more I learn now, the less I have to learn the hard way (Yay gatecamps and getting podded!)

But my experience with blasters on a battleship on tranquility has been as such running level 3's with 2 tracking computers with tracking speed scripts and 2 magnetic field stabilizers:

Warp in, Pick target, charge with MWD, turn off MWD and throw on webs and trackers then start shooting. Kill 1-2 targets. the rest are now right at my optimal orbiting me. Even after I web them I cannot hit them. when I hit them the heavy neuts I'm using don't do significantly more damage (frequently less) than my 425 rail fit. All of my gunnery skills are level 3 or more, and rising. All of my cores are at MINIMUM level 3 and rising with many at 5. But long story short? I spend time trying to kill something, then warp out to recover, warp back in, warp out, then get pissed off and refit rails and even then I have to rely on drones as my primary DPS in a lot of cases. Like the ever-popular warping into the middle of a random gurista blob from an accelerator gate.

But the problem with running the MWD on the battleship is I'm still slower than a cruiser or frig on afterburner, and the very idea of chasing a minmatar capship and overtaking them almost seems laughable. ok I exaggerate, but i'll never catch a Minmatar Battleship in my megathron. ever.

So thoughts on racial MWD speed boost for cruiser to battleship sized Gallente boats? As has been said about a trillion times, all I need is to get to optimal (and my skills up, obviously) and it's on like Donkey Kong. The trick is getting to optimal, and giving a bonus to the most cap-hungry speed module in the game seems a good way to get there to me at least. You're not gonna outrun a minmatar popping the MWD pill, because you're going to run out of cap faster. But you should be able to catch him just long enough to have a prayer of snatching him.

And one of the big disappointments in the game for me as a relatively new player has been the description of gallente ships being the masters of blasters, with blasters touted as the highest damage output in exchange for stupidly danger-close range. Imagine my ecstasy, trying out the blasters, and finding that I can't catch anything, nor does the blaster do more damage than a freaking glorified machinegun.

I don't care if the range never ever gets extended, but right now the flesh-shredding advertisement fails at engagement range. I don't care if Blasters don't become the new "must-have" weapon. But I would like to see them competitive in the fights I get into. Plus it might help force more creative tactics than the artillery abaddon blob.

Sorry for the wall of text.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1039 - 2011-11-21 12:12:12 UTC
You are having difficulties for many reasons.
  1. Battleships does not belong in lv 3 missions because of numebr 2
  2. Big weapons are designed to hit battleships and larger
  3. Railgun and especially 425mm have bad tracking so stay at range
  4. - > (warp to range when possible, snipe fast stuff first and use drones for the rest)
  5. Blasters for missions will often not be effecient due to short range, but if it works for you go ahead
  6. Being capstable with MWD beats the purpose and should be reserved for very few ships
  7. PvP is a toally different game, but yes gallente need the sprint option which in my opinion should be a combination of low mass, high agility and low cap making MWD clean your cap out fast (active rep boats should have more cap though)

Pinky
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1040 - 2011-11-21 12:42:42 UTC
Also, capboosters exist for a reason.

Amarr ships have capboosters fitted.

Gallente have more medslots than Amarrs => Fit capboosters.