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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1001 - 2011-11-19 22:33:57 UTC
Atuesuel wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
if you arent a ultra bad and fly in a group with logistics then it does in fact work.

solo in eve has its place but ffs every ship and race should not be able to do it well.


like all ways the other races call it crying, explain how to get a kill here, you are in a brutex , a cane is at 18km, how you going to win this smart guy let alone put damage on him. ?


Perhaps something like this

[Brutix, New Setup 2]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Berserker SW-900 x2

You should be able to close and do damage, of course then there is still the neuts and large close range DPS to contend with so the brutix would probably still lose, sad thing is the Hybrid changes have done the most to improve the shield gank fits, you could argue it is not Hybrids that are broken now but armour tanking, and unfortunatley for Gallente especially active armour tanking.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1002 - 2011-11-19 23:17:31 UTC
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
ok, CCP, you still have not fixed the fact that all the ships with armor tanking bonuces cannot usethe bonus you gave them, because they cannot fit a full rack of guns, reppers, MWD, and boosters, unless you are fitting electron blaster on them (which is pathertic).
So atm hyperion and britux cannot be fitted with 2 reps and 2 boosters even with maximum fitting skills, meaning they cannot possibly under any circumstance utilize their bonuces. It just is impossible. Thus the ship is useless. That is wihtout even begining to look into effectiveness of their fitting or active vs buffer tank or getting in range or anything like that . THey simply cannot be fit. That is stupid. CHange their bonuces, or change their fitting.

Secondly, remove speed penalty from active armor tank rigs. I liked flying active armour ships, but atm it is just silly. Leave penalty on trimarks, so buffertanks and amarr stay slow.

Thirdly pelase consider giving some gal ships a shield-tank. I seriously think it would massively improve the situation. Minmatar use two tanks, so can we.


You pretty much hit the nail on the head here man. Only thing i could add to this suggestion is the addition of 1 low slot to Brutix and Hyperion hulls.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1003 - 2011-11-20 01:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Believe me you can easily fit a nice Hyperion, however it's' obviously not designed to fit the biggest guns, mwd, 1-2 heavy cap boosters and dual reps without any fitting mods... It's called balance and all the Hyperion need is a boost to active tanking in general.

With the new changes I could upgrade my favorite Hyperion fit from using electrons to using Ions - And I never had trouble with electrons except at one time my targets slipped outside my optimal range...

Pinky
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1004 - 2011-11-20 01:37:13 UTC
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

most t1 platforms for the race cant tank nearly as well as the other three races


Maelstrom has the most powerful tank of all t1 subcaps. Of all races.



Ya my guess would be he missed that part were ccp fixed Minmatar tanks to be on par with everyone alse but left the OP weapons on them.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1005 - 2011-11-20 01:54:13 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Believe me you can easily fit a nice Hyperion, however it's' obviously not designed to fit the biggest guns, mwd, 1-2 heavy cap boosters and dual reps without any fitting mods... It's called balance and all the Hyperion need is a boost to active tanking in general.

With the new changes I could upgrade my favorite Hyperion fit from using electrons to using Ions - And I never had trouble with electrons except at one time my targets slipped outside my optimal range...

Pinky

You are telling me that you can make the ship work if you try hard enough. That is correct. However i do not think that current situation is acceptable nevertheless.
We have to use bad guns, use fitting mods and still get a ship that is inferior to it's competition in just about everything. Even rokh is better as an active tank, it hits 40km away, tanks 40% more dps and has bigger EHP. A ship with a resist bonus and no damage bonus is superiour than a ship designed for the sole purpose of active tanking. That is embarrassing. And yes, i do fly rokh over hyperion in some cases, and i have higher skill in gal. BS.
And don't even get me started on the Abbadon.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1006 - 2011-11-20 01:55:45 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

most t1 platforms for the race cant tank nearly as well as the other three races


Maelstrom has the most powerful tank of all t1 subcaps. Of all races.



Ya my guess would be he missed that part were ccp fixed Minmatar tanks to be on par with everyone alse but left the OP weapons on them.


maelstrom has a great tank? would you like to buy the brooklyn bridge? i am finally ready to sell it. the bank wants me to short sell so, i will sell it to you cheaply.
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1007 - 2011-11-20 02:36:19 UTC
Atleast make Null 50% optial/falloff and give rails another 5% damage to help them atleast abit as you don't want to do any major changes with them for the time being :s
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1008 - 2011-11-20 03:00:01 UTC
The Hyperion has several advantages over the Rokh :
  • Speed
  • Damage Bonus
  • Twice the drone bay in addition
  • Versatility (5 meds for shield/ganksetups or plenty EWAR/Tackle)

Even before the current talk about boosting hybrids the Hyperion was a nice ship only being let down by the poor performance of active tanking mods and silly Gallente people naive enough to think it should be a straight out better ship than a Megathron...
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1009 - 2011-11-20 03:29:12 UTC
Shouldn't it be tho? Considering it's a tier 3 battleship and meant to be the 'ultimate blaster platform'.

If they could change the active tank bonus to something more fleet oriented to put it on the same caliber as an Abaddon would be pretty nice.

I still prefer a Domi though.



Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Rigel Silek
Spartan Forgeworks
#1010 - 2011-11-20 05:55:53 UTC
I like the changes coming to hybrids but I think they still don't go far enough where blasters are concerned. They need more falloff since, as they are, there can be a large gap between max range of blasters and ranges where autocannons and pulse lasers can effectively apply damage.

I'd also like to see change changes in how hybrids apply damage. I think it'd fit with the idea behind the weapons if, for blasters, the damage multiplier was increased and rate of fire decreased to make them high alpha/low DPS guns. Similarly, railguns could have damage multiplier left as it is and rate of fire increased to make them relatively low alpha/high DPS guns.

Lasers could also be changed to make beam and pulse lasers relatively equal in alpha and DPS but vary mainly in range.

On a side note, I think it's conceivable that hybrids could deal all four damage types at once. The change would mean giving them explosive damage that varies based on ammo type while all ammo types deal the same amount of EM damage. Now, before you shout overpowered, the amount of EM and explosive damage would be quite low.

The idea behind this is that the 'shell' of the blaster bolt would cause EM damage while railguns would apply a slight EM effect to the charge. Explosive damage would be caused by the heat/speed of the charge impacting the armor/hull causing a small explosion. This idea for explosive damage could also be used for lasers as well.

Well... Enough of my rambling. I'm sure someone will call my ideas stupid and me an idiot for even suggesting such changes but oh well! lol
Gavius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1011 - 2011-11-20 09:45:25 UTC
Not sure if anything like this has ever been suggested, but as a possible fix for rails, why not give them a sort of inverse fall-off? The idea being, if you have a 500 dps @ 50km optimal (arbitrary numbers just for simplicity) rail fit, it does 250 dps @ 25km, 300 @ 30, 400 @ 40km, etc. Like the polar opposite of blasters. Then at ranges past 50km, you have a sharp fall off again. Or not. Just a rough concept I'm sure someone can polish into a better idea.

This would give rails a very unique flavor, and would support hybrids philosophy of extreme damage at extreme ranges. It would make rails the premier sniping platform at extreme ranges while leaving the "middle" ranges left to lasers and projectiles. Low damage and high ROF would keep them outdamaging arties while leaving artillery with the high alpha strike flavor. That way blasters would facemelt up close but have very little damage at range, and rails would have negligible damage up close but would facemelt things at the opposite end of the spectrum.

It would also allow a clarification of roles between Gallente and Caldari platforms as you could change all the optimal bonuses on the Cald boats to supplement the new inverse fall off, and cater the gallante bonuses towards blasters without inadvertently buffing them as rail platforms.


Of course adding new game mechanics like that is not a simple fix...
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1012 - 2011-11-20 10:04:25 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
i'm actually looking forward to the changes that are coming. 2 vigs 2 DD's and 2 comets ready to go.

been flying minmatar for far too long and these damage and tracking changes are the shot in the arm i needed to change races




yeah, like blaster frigates needed a boostRoll


also, the cynabal will still be much superior to the vigilant.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1013 - 2011-11-20 11:42:58 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
i'm actually looking forward to the changes that are coming. 2 vigs 2 DD's and 2 comets ready to go.

been flying minmatar for far too long and these damage and tracking changes are the shot in the arm i needed to change races


yeah, like blaster frigates needed a boostRoll


Yeah, hybrid frigates are basically fine and don't need any changes. The Daredevil and Taranis, for example, certainly don't need to become any better, and applying these changes will damage game balance.

I'm a bit worried that CCP hasn't commented on this at all. They seem to be going down their usual route of blanket changes again, despite the problems that arose when they did this with projectiles. In both cases, the result is that the ships that benefit most from the changes are the ships that don't actually need boosting at all. It's not a clever way of doing things.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1014 - 2011-11-20 12:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
The changes to small blasters is not great. If you knew anything about what you're talking about you know this has changed nothing. What has changed in a significant way is rail set-ups. If you were using the Taranis and Comet (like I have) to destroy Dramiel. This has become easier. Caldari frigates that use blasters have had a significant increase though. Tracking is very important when it comes to frigate combat. In the past or now. You could abuse the tracking of a Harpy, with a Jaguar for example. That will change. Also alot less capacitor usage is a logical and big plus, but more so for Caldari blaster ships.

Also, unlike what happened to small auto-cannons (increased damage output and applied damage + falloff). Blasters did not get a increase to applied damage. No increase in optimal and falloff.

Suggesting this makes them unbalanced. Shows that alot of you have no idea what you're on about. Small blasters would have been better helped with a increase in applied damage. Also, small rail-guns are superior to blasters in frigate versus frigate combat. Blasters are superior in dealing with larger ships, for the most part.

Anyway, thank CCP for some slight love to small blasters and stfu.... Small blasters are not as great as most of the r3t@rds claim them to be...

Thank you CCP


-proxyyyy
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1015 - 2011-11-20 12:25:30 UTC
1: Hyperion and other tier 3 BS are not supposed to be ultimate anything - They are supposed to be strong battleships dedicated to survive a punishment that would make other battleships explode while doing good dps.
Each race has a dps battleship already that is designed for damage (armageddon, raven, megathron/dominix, Tempest/Typhoon) so plz don't come here tell me Hyperion is supposed to be the ultimate blasterboat that should do more dps.
(And yes the dominix is an amazingly versatile fast battleship that can do a lot of dps with a stupid hard tank)

2: Blasters has a lot of dps because of the short range. changing the blaster for more range is against the concept of Eve and instead the next part of balancing will be looking into each individual ship making sure they have a FAIR chance of getting to blaster range without making them overpowered. this might not be easy against races like minmatar but you do have an option for drones and railguns as well as flying with other people helping with tackle.

3: Small blasters seems to be working better because frigates are good at getting close to people. But let it go for now and help tweak individual ships next...
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1016 - 2011-11-20 16:16:38 UTC
Seriously, if any of you are thinking of flying hybrids in fleet after crucible is released, probably you have to do it at your own expense. No fleet FC is going to favor this platform.
Armour - Abbadon - shoot any thing within 90 kms - have a tank of 200k EHP
Shield - Maelstrom - Alpha from 50km onwards till 120km - Full tank fit with a sensor/prop mod - Lows full gank fit.
This is going to stay.
Probably hybrid may be used for tackle soon after the release. After sometime when this much hyped hybrid rebalance cools down, because of massive fails of hybrid ships things will come back to hurricanes/drakes as before.

People will definitely fly Vigi, DD and Vindi, but only in roams.

In PVE no changes.

CCP will not do any more changes to Hybrid after this release.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1017 - 2011-11-20 16:27:30 UTC
For some reason that sounds good - Hybrids are not to be the new FOTM... They are just to be a balanced alternative.
Granted hybrid buff still need a little more edge to be unique but at least hybrids no longer limp after everything else like a 3-legged dog...
And PvE wise I'm sure people will start using hybrids more against gurista and shadow serpentis. I would prefer Rokh over Raven with the current buff to cap and damage just to get away from trivial missile slinging.

Pinky
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1018 - 2011-11-20 16:36:32 UTC
You have to use a Rokh to know its advantages and disadvantages.
And after you use it in PVE will you realise that these changes have done NOTHING to upgrade the performance of the Rokh
and I can say it will be same for all PVEing hybrid ships.
Cheekything
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1019 - 2011-11-20 16:44:09 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
The Hyperion has several advantages over the Rokh :
  • Speed
  • Damage Bonus
  • Twice the drone bay in addition
  • Versatility (5 meds for shield/ganksetups or plenty EWAR/Tackle)

Even before the current talk about boosting hybrids the Hyperion was a nice ship only being let down by the poor performance of active tanking mods and silly Gallente people naive enough to think it should be a straight out better ship than a Megathron...



Sadly Range and shield (buffer and damage lows) is why people choose the rokh.
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1020 - 2011-11-20 16:55:33 UTC
True that for shield buffer.....

But if you are talking about Rokh advantage over blaster range, then with antimater it gains about 2km in optimal (net) at BS L5.
Since what it gains from the BS bonus it loses it from the ammo range penalty.
With NULL ammo it gains about 12km in optimal.

And I hope you wont use fail rails even after these changes go live.