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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#981 - 2011-11-19 05:07:48 UTC
ok, CCP, you still have not fixed the fact that all the ships with armor tanking bonuces cannot usethe bonus you gave them, because they cannot fit a full rack of guns, reppers, MWD, and boosters, unless you are fitting electron blaster on them (which is pathertic).
So atm hyperion and britux cannot be fitted with 2 reps and 2 boosters even with maximum fitting skills, meaning they cannot possibly under any circumstance utilize their bonuces. It just is impossible. Thus the ship is useless. That is wihtout even begining to look into effectiveness of their fitting or active vs buffer tank or getting in range or anything like that . THey simply cannot be fit. That is stupid. CHange their bonuces, or change their fitting.

Secondly, remove speed penalty from active armor tank rigs. I liked flying active armour ships, but atm it is just silly. Leave penalty on trimarks, so buffertanks and amarr stay slow.

Thirdly pelase consider giving some gal ships a shield-tank. I seriously think it would massively improve the situation. Minmatar use two tanks, so can we.
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#982 - 2011-11-19 05:25:18 UTC
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
ok, CCP, you still have not fixed the fact that all the ships with armor tanking bonuces cannot usethe bonus you gave them, because they cannot fit a full rack of guns, reppers, MWD, and boosters, unless you are fitting electron blaster on them (which is pathertic).
So atm hyperion and britux cannot be fitted with 2 reps and 2 boosters and a rack of ions even with maximum fitting skills, meaning they cannot possibly under any circumstance utilize their bonuces. It just is impossible. Thus the ship is not for-filling it's purpose, it is virtually unusable. That is without even looking into effectiveness of their fitting or active vs buffer tank or getting in range or anything like that . They simply cannot be fit. That is stupid. Change their bounces, or change their fitting. Maelstrom and Abbadon have enourmous amounts of fitting room, especially in powergrid, whereas gallente are restricted on powergid insanely, and it's not like we hae spare cpu either.

Secondly, remove speed penalty from active armor tank rigs. I liked flying active armour ships, but atm it is just silly. Leave penalty on trimarks, so buffertanks and amarr stay slow.

Thirdly pelase consider giving some gal ships a shield-tank. I seriously think it would massively improve the situation. Minmatar use two tanks, so can we.

Atuesuel
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#983 - 2011-11-19 05:56:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Atuesuel
dont care how good you make the guns tracking if the target ship get close to a gall ship there going to get webed down, so the tracking is not so much the problem, its the range and falloff, witch is ok as well as i like being up in peoples faces, more damage would be nice or more speed to the ships as armor tank is slow , and our bass speed is to slow , like min ships have the highest and they can orbit out of webs and scrams and our falloff, we may as well fit mining lazzors to our ships and get some ore as we are getting killed. let the flaming begin.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#984 - 2011-11-19 09:40:53 UTC
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:
ok, CCP, you still have not fixed the fact that all the ships with armor tanking bonuces cannot usethe bonus you gave them, because they cannot fit a full rack of guns, reppers, MWD, and boosters, unless you are fitting electron blaster on them (which is pathertic).
So atm hyperion and britux cannot be fitted with 2 reps and 2 boosters even with maximum fitting skills, meaning they cannot possibly under any circumstance utilize their bonuces. It just is impossible.


Might want to check this out :

Active Tanking
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#985 - 2011-11-19 09:46:22 UTC
Atuesuel wrote:
dont care how good you make the guns tracking if the target ship get close to a gall ship there going to get webed down, so the tracking is not so much the problem, its the range and falloff, witch is ok as well as i like being up in peoples faces, more damage would be nice or more speed to the ships as armor tank is slow , and our bass speed is to slow , like min ships have the highest and they can orbit out of webs and scrams and our falloff, we may as well fit mining lazzors to our ships and get some ore as we are getting killed. let the flaming begin.



You will get no flaming from me that more or less covers most blaster ships ranging from battle ships to cruisers. Med and Large hybirds suck. Small and Capital are fine.


Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#986 - 2011-11-19 10:15:51 UTC
1) Speed penalties imposed by armor plates and rigs are a significant factor in the hybrid problem. I would suggest changing them from a speed reduction to signature radius increase to mirror shield extenders and rigs.

2) Ships using small blasters don't need buffs of this magnitude. In particular the Taranis needs looking at.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#987 - 2011-11-19 14:04:15 UTC
Ferox:

As the Ferox is a supportship mostly I fit it up for a roaming BC fleet. The Ferox is great because you rarely get primaried first due to the relative strong tank, mediocre speed and low damage.
These numbers are using 3 damage mods even if I would normally fit a few TEs. I am also comparing with the shortest range T1 ammunition and have no drones on the ship. EHP is measured undocked and with overheated inv. fields.

425mm Autocannons : 67,6k EHP, 316,2 DPS (1,5km+12km) Tracking 0,132
Heavy Neutron Blasters : 69,7k EHP, 452,7 DPS (3,4km+6,3km) Tracking 0,15
250mm Railguns (Need 1 ACR rig) : 62,9k EHP, 306,9 DPS (27km+15km) Tracking 0,03

The AC Ferox has an obvious advantage in using no cap and being able to select its damage type. The fitting is also much easier and you should be able to fiddle a medium neutralizer in with a few tweaks. Also the fall-off suits the Ferox fine as it isn't very agile and this allows it to hit targets while travelling towards them. This setup will also benefit most from fleet bonus and implants because it has powergrid to fit 2 extenders and 1 inv. field.

The Blaster Ferox needs to get closer before being able to hit the targets well, but the tracking is a little better and and the damage will punish anyone getting caught. I personally consider 400 dps with a cruiser/battlecruiser very sufficient with a good buffer/tank.

Rail Ferox
Now fitting into the support role I attempted to fit 250mm railguns. I'm sure 200mm will do fine as well but I might as well go all-out hehe. I did need a ACR rig compromising the tank a little but as you see not much.
Tracking will always be a huge thing for railguns, but as a supportship I wouldn't mind. It still hits cruisers+ fine as long they don't get too close. As you can see it does nearly the same max dps as autcannons but it does 100% damage all the way upto 27km and switching to long range ammo it is capable of hitting recons very easily.

This ship won't knock the socks off hurricanes and a Brutix likely does twice the damage. But for a cheap tier 1 battlecruiser I really like these stats. In fleets likely being ignored able to sneak up on targets with blasters or sit at range with rails easily hitting any targets called by the FC dealing a solid amount of dps.

Don't forget you can add 100 DPS from drones...
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#988 - 2011-11-19 15:00:50 UTC
they are not going to give you whiners the god like capabilities you will not stop going on and on about. if you cant figure out a way to factor in the cons of each hybrid platform into your play style then, train something else. there is no gun to anyones head here saying you must use hybrids. a 1000 dps proteus 800 dps vig and 1500 vindi show that the changes are reasonable and balanced.

again fly something else if you can't get into situations where you can get on top of your opponent and tickle him from the inside.

good day sirs

CCP, changes are great +2000
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#989 - 2011-11-19 15:19:24 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
they are not going to give you whiners the god like capabilities...


Why this offense?
Is everybody a whiner who wants to improve gameplay and balancing?
Is everybody a whiner who asks why a AC has so many advantages over other weapon systems?
Is everybody a whiner who doesn't share your opinion?
Is everybody a whiner who asks why a die-most or bruttix are useless hybrid plattforms?

Please bring something constructive and stop offending other people.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#990 - 2011-11-19 15:29:14 UTC
the buffs are plenty enough for the platforms to do what they need to do now.

you and the others in this thread whining are just reinforcing the old adage "give a man an inch and he will take a yard"

minmatar have little else asides from their awesome weapons. most t1 platforms for the race cant tank nearly as well as the other three races, guess what? the other three races each have weapons systems that have serious drawback when certain conditions are met.

these balances that have been posted by ccp are great and will make the ship capable of doing alot more with the same ammount of slots.

if you dont like the tracking issues of rails. get a friend in gang that can slow things down at range.

if you dont like the range of blasters, fly ac's or a drone boat.
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#991 - 2011-11-19 15:59:37 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

most t1 platforms for the race cant tank nearly as well as the other three races


Maelstrom has the most powerful tank of all t1 subcaps. Of all races.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#992 - 2011-11-19 16:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

you and the others in this thread whining are just reinforcing the old adage "give a man an inch and he will take a yard"


See thats exactly your problem. I'm not whining at all but you keep offending people.
Your contribution is worthless to this topic and you are a distraction in this thread.
Others would call you propably a troll.

In my opinion the balancing is finished when all races have equal chances to win a battle with equal ship types (for example cruiser vs cruiser) and equal weapons (short vs short or range vs range).

So lets do this test, lets put a AC Hurricane vs a Blaster Bruttix, both T1 BC with short range weapons, both T2 fitted.
Lets run 10 tests and see what comes out.
Ouch, the Hurricane won 9 of 10 fights...
... but yeah, the Bruttix-Pilot was a whiner.

As long as one weapon system dominates the entire game it is not fixed. But guys like you offending people and tell them they are whiners just want to stay in their comfortable seat named Hurricane with AC.
Btw, I'm not a Gallente Fanboy and I also fly other ships and it doesn't take too much time to cross train to T2 medium ACs (if I feel the need for that) but a crap balanced game is a crap balanced game.
And EVE isn't only crap balanced, it also has some fundamentaly broken aspects by design.
For example making the short range guy slow and armor tanked and making Rails work on a distance where you simply can use warp to zero.

"give a man an inch and he will take a yard"?
How about to put it that way: Ignore your paying player base for 3 years and they will be happy after that 3 years even if you only give them some bullshit to eat?
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#993 - 2011-11-19 16:18:48 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

minmatar have little else asides from their awesome weapons. most t1 platforms for the race cant tank nearly as well as the other three races, guess what? the other three races each have weapons systems that have serious drawback when certain conditions are met.


I lol'ed at this part. Yeah they have nothing else besides their awesome weapons, besides the best speed, best slot layout, tons of extra fitting space to fit everything they want and tons of utility slots. Go troll somewhere else you easy moder. Fact is I use almost nothing but blaster ships to get my kills, and guess what, just because someone can get kills relying on the rest of their gang, doesn't mean the ships aren't **** and need redoing. The whole pvp balance in eve is messed up because of minmatar ships, all the other races have some way of dealing with it but not Gallente ships. So we're asking for these frankly reasonable changes because we know that this will not make Gall ships more desirable and only slightly more effective.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#994 - 2011-11-19 18:13:03 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
again fly something else if you can't get into situations where you can get on top of your opponent and tickle him from the inside.



ah yes, the fabled "warp in at 0 tactic".



that works about 1 out of 50 times btw.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#995 - 2011-11-19 19:29:16 UTC
if you arent a ultra bad and fly in a group with logistics then it does in fact work.

solo in eve has its place but ffs every ship and race should not be able to do it well.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#996 - 2011-11-19 20:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Weren't gallente suppost to be the solo race? Niche got smaller, and thus people wanted them to work in fleets?

With minmatar, it was really just a problem with the battleships and caps, most of the other classes were the most useful in thier class. Then the boosts came, and all those great ships became greater, whilst we now see artillery in abaddons.

I've pretty much said from the outset that there was little beyond changes to ammo and tracking that needs to be done to hybrids, however the lack of ship changes, the lack of a meaningful synergy towards how the ships behave is depressing.

Deimos, Phobos, Eos, Astarte, Hyperion, Eris, Brutix and Mymidon all need a look at with specific changes (form fitting tweaks to major redesigns) which I think would give gallente a more competitive line up beyond (for me anyway) the ishtar and the Proteus.

Also Zarak1, you can't accuse me of flying with bads! You know full well that a Mach > Vindi for top damage dealing in almost every situation which is kinda sad.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#997 - 2011-11-19 20:25:52 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
... but ffs every ship and race should not be able to do it well.


I agree with "every ship" since there are ships designed for fleets, for solo and some even for... ... mining!
I disagree with race since there is no reason why one race should be the fleet race, the other the solo race and the third race the gate camping race.
I say yes to different strategies and approaches, to a different "balance point" every race has, but every race must have something competitive to get the basic jobs done.
Otherwise Gamemasters should tell beginners to choose Amarr if they want to fight in fleets, Minmatar if they want to own everything in canes, Caldari if they want to run missions and Gallente if they want to haul stuff in a Iteron 5 :P
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#998 - 2011-11-19 21:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
the buffs are plenty enough for the platforms to do what they need to do now.


not for the Deimos. this ship is still subpar in comparison to its counterparts, and rails simply dont work well with it. please buff the Deimos in some way.

Pattern Clarc wrote:


Deimos, Phobos, Eos, Astarte, Hyperion, Eris, Brutix and Mymidon all need a look at with specific changes (form fitting tweaks to major redesigns) which I think would give gallente a more competitive line up beyond (for me anyway) the ishtar and the Proteus.



and this. Ishtar has always been ok, and the Proteus is showing a lot of promise with the rail buffs. but the others are terrible.
Atuesuel
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#999 - 2011-11-19 22:01:01 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
if you arent a ultra bad and fly in a group with logistics then it does in fact work.

solo in eve has its place but ffs every ship and race should not be able to do it well.


like all ways the other races call it crying, explain how to get a kill here, you are in a brutex , a cane is at 18km, how you going to win this smart guy let alone put damage on him. ?
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1000 - 2011-11-19 22:15:49 UTC
i'm actually looking forward to the changes that are coming. 2 vigs 2 DD's and 2 comets ready to go.

been flying minmatar for far too long and these damage and tracking changes are the shot in the arm i needed to change races