These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#2701 - 2013-10-28 16:51:06 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
There's difference between themepark addons and sandbox addons. Themepark relies on addons to survive, as its content depletes rapidly. Sandbox only benefits from additions that expand the ways to have fun in it.

Rebalance like the one CCP is performing, and one done well with some consideration (same for adding ships. You won't get the balance right in the first pass, but they sure look better than say, the Blackops which wound up with a hodgepodge of random bonuses barely fitting their style and then were forgotten for a long time.) works well when it comes to revitalizing the content in the Sandbox.



It works for games like LoL or WoT.

In a sandbox contents are created by players so they need proper tools and frameworks to create contents and to shape the world. And a major area where EVE lack of proper tools and frameworks is just everything related to pilots and WiS.

Keep shuffling the same old stuff, +1 or -1 to a module attributes is daily mantainence, any games do it. It's good, have to be done and have to continue as always been in EVE, but cannot work as core business; can work for theme parks games, to give a refresh feeling, but means nothing in sandbox terms.

For sure +1 or -1 to a module attribute is not what make you sell a game, hold customers or earn new ones. And doesn't pay the bills.

Mostly when competitors starts to stick their noses in your golden niche.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#2702 - 2013-10-28 17:07:42 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jara Blackwind wrote:
Well, here are the words of another bitter carebear.

I once started playing EVE because it remindered me somewhat of Elite II: Frontier and Privateer games which I used to miss school for. The "unforgiving and harsh nature", "Nigeria online", "tear harvesting" etc. aspects of EVE were okay as I found my little corner in the sandbox and a few people that more or less supported my bubble of suspended disbelief and kept playing and even PvPing, on and off.

But post-Incarna (as epic fail as it was. No, really, Incarna was beyond epic fail. It was a ******** **** **** of whale-like proportions) the bitter reality had to settle in.

1. CCP, no doubt, considers the existence of the thousand-account nullsec alliances as the epitome of the social function of their game and the subscribers of those accounts as the core player base of EVE.

2. The "content" generated by players in the sandbox (which basically has minimal differences with your average high school yard with some street gang flavour thrown in, complete with ASCII phalluses in local and Jita chat) is of primary value.

3. Whatever NPC content there is serves three basic functions: A. Tutorial. B. Farming ISK. C. Providing barebones framework for the "sandbox" of EVE.

This is The Vision of CCP, and it won't change. Whatever changes will be enacted by the CCP after Incarna fiasco will be aimed to reinforce this vision and, where possible, reaffirm loyalty of the (perceived) core customer base. The Rubicon expansion just underlines this once more.

Аfter both SC and Elite IV hit (I backed both), EVE will be Goonswarm Spreadsheets online, and it will drag on (for quite a few years - Ultima and Everquest are still alive in some form!) and slowly die as such.

As for me, I applaud CCP for all they have done, and I've paid them enough subscription money to reward their effort.

But as soon as I could return to the cockpit of my Eagle among the pinkish ice fields of Ross 154 with Aster rising over horizon and Sirocco Station domes a few miles away, days of EVE for me will be over.

And no, no forum warrior will ever have my stuff. I'd rather contract it all to my alliance; they are mostly good guys/gals and there should be more like them.


Star Ctiizen just hit 25 million less than 6 days after reaching 24 million. Even if such enthusiasm is misplaced or not as sincere as it seems (LTI gray market is blooming, and obviously it relies on buying pledges from CIG), the question remains:

Giving people what they want is a powerful tool. But so far EVE development is at a stage in which it's not just that they don't care nor know what players want -not even CCP themselves know what they want for EVE.

And meanwhile CCP's old habits remain. Just a few days ago, CCP Affinity told a player that if he wanted the best Ghost Sites, he should leave his comfort zone, meaning that high security space will not get the best rewards for those new anomaly sites. i bit my tongue until my wishes to call her an arrogant b*** faded and i was able to write a indignant but civil reminder that hiseccers too pay the game, and later I exposed a sensible way to distribute the best drops between differerent spaces so everyone had a chance to hit jackpot, rather than tell players to F themselves if they want good rewards and can't or don't want to pay the price of leaving hisec. I wonder wether I'll get any response.

EVE is not the game I wanted to play when i joined it. It will never be, in part because it can't. But also because CCP has stopped trying to make it any different than it is. EVE is a dish of reheated porridge which after Rubicon will be given a new presentation and will be microwaved once more to look new and warm.

And that doesn't cuts it. Player built stargates, new pockets of unknown space, space elevators or even virtual reality spaces, those are cool ideas. But not for EVE. It's the same old game since 10 years ago, and 2 years ago it abandoned all intent and all hope to expand in a truly new direction.


Hi-sec'ers are often disregarded because of their unwillingness to leave hi-sec in search of bigger and better things. Simple risk vs reward

Thank me later :D
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2703 - 2013-10-28 17:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Hi-sec'ers are often disregarded because of their unwillingness to leave hi-sec in search of bigger and better things. Simple risk vs reward

Still, they are paying customers, and many of those are all but fed up by a) the neglect from CCP and b) the persecution from other, presumably "better" (playing the game as it is supposed to be played) gamers... many of those have been waiting for EVE to change to make either of those issues better, but I doubt many of them will wait much longer.

Catering only to one group of ones playerbase, and calling that "a sandbox" doesn't cut it... a true sandbox has content for every type of player.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2704 - 2013-10-28 17:48:50 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Hi-sec'ers are often disregarded because of their unwillingness to leave hi-sec in search of bigger and better things. Simple risk vs reward

Still, they are paying customers, and many of those are all but fed up by a) the neglect from CCP and b) the persecution from other, presumably "better" (playing the game as it is supposed to be played) gamers... many of those have been waiting for EVE to change to make either of those issues better, but I doubt many of them will wait much longer.

Catering only to one group of ones playerbase, and calling that "a sandbox" doesn't cut it... a true sandbox has content for every type of player.


Neglect?

Reworked bounties
Reworked killrights
Reworked crimewatch
Reworked war declaration system
Mining barge buffs

Were major changes aimed for the most part at hisec. What did others get?

Tech nerf. Exploration rebalance that crashed prices on commodities that used to be very valuable. General moon mineral rebalance. Anomaly changes curbing low-risk high-profit ratting.

Of course, say, 0.0 benefited from cruiser rebalance that made cheap T1 cruiser fleets hilariously fun and actually viable on the battlefield (Caracal, never forget!) but in the light of problems with sovereignity mechanics and a few other glaring issues it's like a moisture in the middle of goddamn Sahara. We already saw a step in the good direction with industry changes that made null mining and manufacturing more viable but it's still a long highway to the fun-zone. A bumpy one, and filled with danger.

The only reason many presume other part of the playerbase is content with the current state of things is that they're not exactly the sort to whine on the forums. From pilots up high to a newbie in a slasher an old wisdom is passed that makes them say "no" when offered to make a massive whine post. Sang by CCP Guard himself, the wisdom says: "Harden The **** Up".

Barges harder to gank? HTFU and change fits/ships/tactics. Tech nerfed? HTFU and devise another plan to make mad money, start a war over it. Exploration changes unprofitable? HTFU and either adapt or find another revenue stream. Anomalies changed? Come up with the new FOTM ratting ship.

Persecution comes because hisec refuses to HTFU. Rather than do so, they whine on the forums, entertaining the rest. Squeaky chair gets the oil, after all. Truth is, the crowd whining about miner ganking or bumping, pitting themselves as "poor, defenseless miners" makes actual industrialists look bad.

Why? Because an industrial corporation can have just about as much teeth as a group of battle-hardened pirates. Thing is, those groups mostly belong to the followers of Holy HTFU so they don't whine either. For those people hulkageddon isn't a time to dock up and whine on forums, it's time to ramp up catalyst and hulk production due to increased demand.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2705 - 2013-10-28 18:02:45 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jara Blackwind wrote:
Well, here are the words of another bitter carebear.

I once started playing EVE because it remindered me somewhat of Elite II: Frontier and Privateer games which I used to miss school for. The "unforgiving and harsh nature", "Nigeria online", "tear harvesting" etc. aspects of EVE were okay as I found my little corner in the sandbox and a few people that more or less supported my bubble of suspended disbelief and kept playing and even PvPing, on and off.

But post-Incarna (as epic fail as it was. No, really, Incarna was beyond epic fail. It was a ******** **** **** of whale-like proportions) the bitter reality had to settle in.

1. CCP, no doubt, considers the existence of the thousand-account nullsec alliances as the epitome of the social function of their game and the subscribers of those accounts as the core player base of EVE.

2. The "content" generated by players in the sandbox (which basically has minimal differences with your average high school yard with some street gang flavour thrown in, complete with ASCII phalluses in local and Jita chat) is of primary value.

3. Whatever NPC content there is serves three basic functions: A. Tutorial. B. Farming ISK. C. Providing barebones framework for the "sandbox" of EVE.

This is The Vision of CCP, and it won't change. Whatever changes will be enacted by the CCP after Incarna fiasco will be aimed to reinforce this vision and, where possible, reaffirm loyalty of the (perceived) core customer base. The Rubicon expansion just underlines this once more.

Аfter both SC and Elite IV hit (I backed both), EVE will be Goonswarm Spreadsheets online, and it will drag on (for quite a few years - Ultima and Everquest are still alive in some form!) and slowly die as such.

As for me, I applaud CCP for all they have done, and I've paid them enough subscription money to reward their effort.

But as soon as I could return to the cockpit of my Eagle among the pinkish ice fields of Ross 154 with Aster rising over horizon and Sirocco Station domes a few miles away, days of EVE for me will be over.

And no, no forum warrior will ever have my stuff. I'd rather contract it all to my alliance; they are mostly good guys/gals and there should be more like them.


Star Ctiizen just hit 25 million less than 6 days after reaching 24 million. Even if such enthusiasm is misplaced or not as sincere as it seems (LTI gray market is blooming, and obviously it relies on buying pledges from CIG), the question remains:

Giving people what they want is a powerful tool. But so far EVE development is at a stage in which it's not just that they don't care nor know what players want -not even CCP themselves know what they want for EVE.

And meanwhile CCP's old habits remain. Just a few days ago, CCP Affinity told a player that if he wanted the best Ghost Sites, he should leave his comfort zone, meaning that high security space will not get the best rewards for those new anomaly sites. i bit my tongue until my wishes to call her an arrogant b*** faded and i was able to write a indignant but civil reminder that hiseccers too pay the game, and later I exposed a sensible way to distribute the best drops between differerent spaces so everyone had a chance to hit jackpot, rather than tell players to F themselves if they want good rewards and can't or don't want to pay the price of leaving hisec. I wonder wether I'll get any response.

EVE is not the game I wanted to play when i joined it. It will never be, in part because it can't. But also because CCP has stopped trying to make it any different than it is. EVE is a dish of reheated porridge which after Rubicon will be given a new presentation and will be microwaved once more to look new and warm.

And that doesn't cuts it. Player built stargates, new pockets of unknown space, space elevators or even virtual reality spaces, those are cool ideas. But not for EVE. It's the same old game since 10 years ago, and 2 years ago it abandoned all intent and all hope to expand in a truly new direction.


Hi-sec'ers are often disregarded because of their unwillingness to leave hi-sec in search of bigger and better things. Simple risk vs reward


In equality of availablity and conditions, it can be called "unwillingness".

But EVE players are diverse, and so are their circunstances. Some can't press d-scan every other second because must attend RL issues. Others don't experience "adrenaline rush" at all, or feel sick because of adrenaline kicks. Some can't play more than an hour at once. Some feel opposed to losing stuff. Some just play to relax or disconnect from their daily routine.

What they have in common is that they like space-themed games, and pay CCP for playing EVE, be it with money or time to buy PLEX.

It is expectable that players abuse and discriminate each other -such is human nature and EVE is not exactly in favor of controlling the lowest passions. What is harder to swallow is when CCP takes my money and say that there are no cookies for me for other reason than they don't like what i do in the game. That i should, according to them, "leave my comfort zone", rather than expect them to do what i pay them for: give me a game i want to play and pay for. Which, accidentally, is compatible with the game others want and pay for.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#2706 - 2013-10-28 18:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Oh cmon guys, please not hate so much CCP Affinity, she's cute.

Come join Affinity Fan Club, Amarrs are at Tier 4 and Alfred is recruting.

Or if you would like to engage in a more laid back isk-acquiring venture you can join ingame channel "Farmerpigs" #1 Factional Warfare eleet channel - only Eleet PVE farmerpigs allowed - people who joined FW for pvp should leave.

A new race is born!!!! Eleet FarmerPigs!!! \o/ join the growing FP community! cloaked and stabbed frigs provided at multiple FW locations!
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2707 - 2013-10-28 18:13:20 UTC
What has this thread become?

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Anslo
Scope Works
#2708 - 2013-10-28 18:14:34 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Rabble rabble.

Careful not to cut yourself on that edge, Trii.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2709 - 2013-10-28 18:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Trii Seo wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Hi-sec'ers are often disregarded because of their unwillingness to leave hi-sec in search of bigger and better things. Simple risk vs reward

Still, they are paying customers, and many of those are all but fed up by a) the neglect from CCP and b) the persecution from other, presumably "better" (playing the game as it is supposed to be played) gamers... many of those have been waiting for EVE to change to make either of those issues better, but I doubt many of them will wait much longer.

Catering only to one group of ones playerbase, and calling that "a sandbox" doesn't cut it... a true sandbox has content for every type of player.


Neglect?

Reworked bounties
Reworked killrights
Reworked crimewatch
Reworked war declaration system
Mining barge buffs


4 out of 5 of those things are totally irrelevant to anyone not interested in PvP.

Bounty system is a idiotic schoolyard mechanic.
Killrights are a scam.
Crimewatch was a bloody mess, now it's just a mess.
Wardec system has always been a way to abuse and harrass non-PvPers.
Mining barge buffs merely adressed endless years of abuse on non-PvPers.

The things I do and like of this game are the same now than 5 years ago. I think that CCP has had ample time to give me something new to chew on.

And by the way, if they wanted to get rid of me, they should had not advertised Walking in Stations. That kept me subbed for all of 2010, 2011 and most of 2012.

They took my money, my hopes, my suggestions, and i got nothing but disappointment and bitterness.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2710 - 2013-10-28 18:19:22 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
What has this thread become?


Something ISD is about to drop a hammer on of being kicked so far off topic it forgot what it was about?

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Anslo
Scope Works
#2711 - 2013-10-28 18:20:38 UTC
Funny enough it isn't that off topic. It just gets down to the heart of the matter. The people who want WiS (casuals) and those who don't (extremists). Not to say that there's no one from groups on either that don't feel vice-versa, but still...

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2712 - 2013-10-28 18:25:09 UTC
To be quite honest, in my case, it's not about wanting it's about priorities. I wouldn't mind WiS done right. It'd be cool to be able to say, customize my hangar to look they way I like it, maybe have the ability to stand on the balcony and look at all the spaceships in the hangar.

But it's non-vital cosmetics that would have to be developed in a way that doesn't hinder gameplay. Developed without diverting resources from gameplay elements that sorely need attention. If I have to choose between shiney hangar and well-working corp roles, POS code ans Sov? I'll pick the latter even if the hangar will become a static screen.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2713 - 2013-10-28 18:25:14 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
What has this thread become?


Something ISD is about to drop a hammer on of being kicked so far off topic it forgot what it was about?


It's easy to get it back to rails. Just look at my avatar; this coat is the best CCP has done for me this year. Now if i just could match it with some stockings developed with the same paint-on technique as sleeve tattoos and the cybernetic arm... I would like to get very dark green stockings with a thin golden seam line on the back...

(But i am aware that such change would make life unbearable to all the HTFU utlra-l33t pivipirs)

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2714 - 2013-10-28 18:31:42 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
To be quite honest, in my case, it's not about wanting it's about priorities. I wouldn't mind WiS done right. It'd be cool to be able to say, customize my hangar to look they way I like it, maybe have the ability to stand on the balcony and look at all the spaceships in the hangar.

But it's non-vital cosmetics that would have to be developed in a way that doesn't hinder gameplay. Developed without diverting resources from gameplay elements that sorely need attention. If I have to choose between shiney hangar and well-working corp roles, POS code ans Sov? I'll pick the latter even if the hangar will become a static screen.


Have a tip free of charge: Artists don't code mechanics. Blink

The whole funny thing with avatar customization is that it requires very minimal manpower and such manpower is untransferable to "serious issues".

Have you seen the cybernetic arm? It takes two persons to do such a thing -an artist, and a QA developer working part time to test and include the packages in the next release build. Probably some supervision is needed too, but all in all is a very little efort that pays out a lot -150$ for each CE that's been bought because it includes the arm and that makes the deal.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2715 - 2013-10-28 18:40:20 UTC
No, they don't. But coders code mechanics on which the assets are based. Someone needs to get camera, transitions, lighting and navigation mechanics to work and that's a coder's job.

Similarily, often artists need to make assets for the coder's new toys - such as shiney buttons, new animations (Bastion) new models (Golem, Stratios, Astero, new structures) along with proper rigging, texturing, mapping.

As for the customization options - they seem to have more in stock, probably it's being held by suits that debate on microtransaction model.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Anslo
Scope Works
#2716 - 2013-10-28 18:42:28 UTC
Camera....navi....the most being done recently is switching database code to re balance ships. Literally changing numbers. I work with clinical databases and can confirm this is no small, simple task, sure but...to focus 70-80% on that is just inefficient.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#2717 - 2013-10-28 18:46:04 UTC
I doubt the rest of the team sits idle. They're quite likely, and a lot of people are hoping for it, reworking the epic clusterfuck that's POS code.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2718 - 2013-10-28 18:50:51 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Camera....navi....the most being done recently is switching database code to re balance ships. Literally changing numbers. I work with clinical databases and can confirm this is no small, simple task, sure but...to focus 70-80% on that is just inefficient.


By definition, restating a ship is wasted on anyone not using it or not interested to use it. With the restat thing, CCP is putting to use existing assets so the players get extra content without extra assets, but it also creates a strong "been there, done that" feeling.

I mean, i may fly my "new" Golem, but essentialy will be doing the same i've been doing for years. It is nice to have a different way to asplode NPCs, but it's nothing new.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2719 - 2013-10-28 19:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Oh, I think it's ver much on topic... we basically just explored why WiS is no longer on the agenda: Because it belongs to the content that benefits mostly players which are no longer of any importance to CCP.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#2720 - 2013-10-28 19:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
Hi-sec'ers are often disregarded because of their unwillingness to leave hi-sec in search of bigger and better things. Simple risk vs reward

Still, they are paying customers, and many of those are all but fed up by a) the neglect from CCP and b) the persecution from other, presumably "better" (playing the game as it is supposed to be played) gamers... many of those have been waiting for EVE to change to make either of those issues better, but I doubt many of them will wait much longer.

Catering only to one group of ones playerbase, and calling that "a sandbox" doesn't cut it... a true sandbox has content for every type of player.


Neglect?

Reworked bounties
Reworked killrights
Reworked crimewatch
Reworked war declaration system
Mining barge buffs


4 out of 5 of those things are totally irrelevant to anyone not interested in PvP.

Bounty system is a idiotic schoolyard mechanic.
Killrights are a scam.
Crimewatch was a bloody mess, now it's just a mess.
Wardec system has always been a way to abuse and harrass non-PvPers.
Mining barge buffs merely adressed endless years of abuse on non-PvPers.

The things I do and like of this game are the same now than 5 years ago. I think that CCP has had ample time to give me something new to chew on.

And by the way, if they wanted to get rid of me, they should had not advertised Walking in Stations. That kept me subbed for all of 2010, 2011 and most of 2012.

They took my money, my hopes, my suggestions, and i got nothing but disappointment and bitterness.


Anyone not interested in PvP is in the wrong game, the only part of sandbox mmo-rpg's that are not about PvP competition is the login screen, and even that can be PVP since you can have a keylogger on your computer.

The fact that a themepark carebear avatar freak like you is crying all over the forums shows that CCP is doing a wonderful job on EvE Online, the sandbox mmo-rpg.

The Tears Must Flow