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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#501 - 2013-10-23 10:20:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Now they have decided to switch to incursions as an argument, despite specifically stating in the original thread that started all this that I was not talking about incursions and despite specifying that I was talking about missions in this threads original post.

no, the argument hasn't changed, you just refuse to comprehend what people are saying to you

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Speaking of incursions I read this a while ago and thought it might shed some light on incursions vs anoms thing even though they're completely seperate, one solable, the other requiring fleets...

this ancient post by a single renter npc corper is irrefutable evidence of, uh, something
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#502 - 2013-10-23 10:32:00 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Speaking of incursions I read this a while ago and thought it might shed some light on incursions vs anoms thing even though they're completely seperate, one solable, the other requiring fleets...

this ancient post by a single renter npc corper is irrefutable evidence of, uh, something

Ridicule again, I saw this in 0. numerous times, the Incursion was often ignored and people moved to other systems to do anoms if they could, sometimes fleets will get formed to do them, but not often as most people prefer to do anoms because they have the ships there to do them effectively rather than a ship to do the Incursion, but it is a very good point by Infinity Ziona and using ridicule just does not cut it...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#503 - 2013-10-23 10:37:07 UTC
The main issue at hand here is that despite it being spelled out for you every which way till Sunday, you seem to continue to both ignore and misunderstand statistics.

Your lucky streak does not equal normal statistical loot drop percentage.

- if you made 2 billion in 4 hours yet 7 billion total over a month, obviously your numbers don't jive and this even more highlights the fact that the 2-bil run was a total luck fest, if we divided that 7 billion over lets say 60 hours you probably spent in null over the last month (including travel time, hauling, etc) we're talking more like 120m/hour

- others have chimed in, that they often go for long periods of time with no drops, therefore you should average out dry spells, you're not going to make 500m per hour every hour indefinitely, if ISK was so easy to print it would have close to zero value in Eve;

- there are many clever players out there, you're not the first to have stumbled upon this, and many of these clever players have found incursions to pay better overall

Please advise why you continue to ignore these points, and continue to parade around your fictitious 500m/hour "average"?

I seriously advise you brush up on and review
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2013-10-23 10:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
The main issue at hand here is that despite it being spelled out for you every which way till Sunday, you seem to continue to both ignore and misunderstand statistics.

Your lucky streak does not equal normal statistical loot drop percentage.

- if you made 2 billion in 4 hours yet 7 billion total over a month, obviously your numbers don't jive and this even more highlights the fact that the 2-bil run was a total luck fest, if we divided that 7 billion over lets say 60 hours you probably spent in null over the last month (including travel time, hauling, etc) we're talking more like 120m/hour

- others have chimed in, that they often go for long periods of time with no drops, therefore you should average out dry spells, you're not going to make 500m per hour every hour indefinitely, if ISK was so easy to print it would have close to zero value in Eve;

- there are many clever players out there, you're not the first to have stumbled upon this, and many of these clever players have found incursions to pay better overall

Please advise why you continue to ignore these points, and continue to parade around your fictitious 500m/hour "average"?

I seriously advise you brush up on and review
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

I'm going by the statistics I have a month of casual plexxing. The income was consistently very high, drops were frequent and I made 7 billion prior to making this post. If you look at the dates on my screenshots they post date this threads OP. In fact the next session I did I got the 2 billion. Then the next session only a few hundred million and then the next 4 billion in one session.

Don't give me this "your statistics don't match with regular statistics" without providing those statistics.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#505 - 2013-10-23 11:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
The main issue at hand here is that despite it being spelled out for you every which way till Sunday, you seem to continue to both ignore and misunderstand statistics.

Your lucky streak does not equal normal statistical loot drop percentage.

- if you made 2 billion in 4 hours yet 7 billion total over a month, obviously your numbers don't jive and this even more highlights the fact that the 2-bil run was a total luck fest, if we divided that 7 billion over lets say 60 hours you probably spent in null over the last month (including travel time, hauling, etc) we're talking more like 120m/hour

- others have chimed in, that they often go for long periods of time with no drops, therefore you should average out dry spells, you're not going to make 500m per hour every hour indefinitely, if ISK was so easy to print it would have close to zero value in Eve;

- there are many clever players out there, you're not the first to have stumbled upon this, and many of these clever players have found incursions to pay better overall

Please advise why you continue to ignore these points, and continue to parade around your fictitious 500m/hour "average"?

I seriously advise you brush up on and review
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability


The OP was comparing to level 4 missions, I have compared anoms in another thread to levels 4's and for the average player anoms in 0.0 are more profitable than level 4's in hisec. People will go on about the LP's well faction warfare nerfed some of those, and of course people flooded into other like SOE missions which reduced the value of LP's there. Jenn for example is likely to be using her period of running SOE missions in Osmon before the hordes of people started doing it, I saw my earnings from the LP's drop by 50% in a couple of months, which is why I stopped doing them. Jenn mentioned them because they were at one point the most profitable missions for LP benefit, but they lost that due to the sheer number of people doing them, Jenn did not mention that did she in that earlier thread. Now that people are running SOE missions for those new ships perhaps the price of sisters launchers and probes will pick up?

Selectively quoting and not able to go back and adjust their thinking on changes is what hyprocrites like Jenn do when they run as forum warriors, Jenn is a troll and nothing more than that working to an agenda. Look at this link:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/outpost/49-U6U

The name of the station, Jenn referred to me as a raving squirrel, as Jenn, but here it is as Sister Bliss, and yet in this thread Jenn pretended that she was not a major person in a 0.0 alliance, a little bit tenouos, but I am 95% sure that Jenn is Sister Bliss.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#506 - 2013-10-23 11:10:26 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The reason is simple. I made a statement that you can make up to 500 million an hour in null sec. I was ridiculed and called names. I then proved that it was not only possible but you could make 4 billion in a couple of hours if you were lucky. My drops were consistent not pot luck drops.

Now they have decided to switch to incursions as an argument, despite specifically stating in the original thread that started all this that I was not talking about incursions and despite specifying that I was talking about missions in this threads original post.

I think its just an ego thing and they also are a bit upset that I exposed their isk printing machine most likely.


I think you have made a very good argument and have been very patent with the personal attacks these people have resorted to.

They resorted to name calling, and switched the argument, one of their methods is to make an argument which they try to sell as if you made it and then ridicule it. It is most definately an ego thing, but they are also trying to get hisec nerfed and I can tell you in terms of the ISK printing that there is a lot of people going into CFC areas and running their sites, when I was briefly in EXE there was so many neutral T3's running sites in Cloud Ring it was ridiculous!

Baltec often goes on about the number of people running in Goon systems, but the issue is that the Goons have the least number of systems per member compared to any other CFC alliance, it was a strategic decision to develop the CFC and not what happens in so many other areas and just recently they started to get more systems to try to do something about it, I know a Goon FC who a couple of months back was telling me about this exact issue. Baltec argument here is based on his alliances strategic decision to keep the CFC coalition sweet.

I ran in Cobalt Edge with a Carrier and an Oracle, the carrier was fit for potential PvP so was not optimised for PvE yet that combination made 108m an hour and I did that 5 hours a day during the week from 06:00 to 12:00 eve time for 2 months, I compared that to running Sisters of Eve missions in Osman for a similar period of time and I made much more ISK in 0.0, of course my mission running was not optimal, but that is the issue, its so much easier and cheaper to run anoms at an optimal level as compared to missions.

Incursions have issues, most notably when there is only one in hisec, getting into a fleet is an ordeal and of course you have to have a bling fitted ship which is very vulnerable to ganks which of course takes out a large chunk of your profits, with a single Incursion you wait around to get into one and then you are contested, cuts the income, and of course don't forget those people trying to close off the Incursion fast. And as other people have noted its is not a solo activity.

In conclusion 0.0 is a much more fun and profitable area to operate in and nerfing level 4's is just not sensible.

Thanks you. I have been posting on EvE's forums for a decade and I think I'm pretty much immune to the nasty people now lol. Besides I think the moment people do start with the insults and redirection, I think that's a very good indication I'm on the right track.

There are still a ton on neutrals running sites in cloud ring. Lots of Fidalas Constans there too for some reason. I missioned for so long. I doubt that I was optimal at missioning but it was pretty boring, not great isk and so few missions, no exciting regarding any rare drops. I think its akin to running a WoW instance with all the bosses removed lol. All you get to loot is junk and a few silver. Combat sites are like running top tier instances but unlike WoW you can run them solo and have all the uber loot for yourself... I'm so going to get in trouble for using a wow analogy :)

And yes I think the comparison to incursions is pretty stupid. I think incursions are to PvE as fleet battles are to PvP. Combat sites are more 1 v 1's. Totally different.

Yeah nerfing L4's is absolutely not necessary imo either.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#507 - 2013-10-23 11:11:38 UTC
considering the OP has spent 26+ pages responding to a topic that has been beaten to death (i.e. no new points, arguments or information, has been produced or given in the last 10 pages) plus the bombastic tone of the original thread, I can only assume OP is very much a fan of Internet attention and has nothing better to do. Therefore I won't feed the troll, as OP clearly is not interested in responding to any of the points made by any of the respondents, and instead spent 26 pages bragging about a 2bil loot fluke with no further evidence or points. o7
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#508 - 2013-10-23 11:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
considering the OP has spent 26+ pages responding to a topic that has been beaten to death (i.e. no new points, arguments or information, has been produced or given in the last 10 pages) plus the bombastic tone of the original thread, I can only assume OP is very much a fan of Internet attention and has nothing better to do. Therefore I won't feed the troll, as OP clearly is not interested in responding to any of the points made by any of the respondents, and instead spent 26 pages bragging about a 2bil loot fluke with no further evidence or points. o7

Translation of the above quote by Infinity Ziona:

Quote:
The OP has asked me for my statistics, which I referred to in my previous post. I don't have any actual real statistics so I will instead escape from this thread by declaring the OP an attention whore. The OP is an attention whore, I mean its obvious by how they replied to replies in their thread. What a ridiculous idea replying to replies in a thread on a forum... Anyone that does that must be looking for attention... Now for my escape....

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#509 - 2013-10-23 11:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustaf en Gravonere
You're the one that posted the thread, so you should be producing the statistics. What I am pointing out is your lack of conclusive evidence, trying to turn the tables by asking me to produce contrary statistics is an escapism inofitself and a fallacy. Since you are the self proclaimed null site running expert, who has been gathering statistics and now wants to share with the class, well, let's see some real statistics. The other side of the argument (the ones talking about how good Incursions are) have produced the numbers - in terms of ISK/hour. You however have not, you are basing your entire thread on 3 plex sessions. If you're bored enough, you should probably post some more meaningful information, preferably over a larger sample set, such as:

- total hours spent in null over the course of 2 months
- total profit

You still haven't told us exactly how many hours were spent obtaining said 7 billion isk. Be truthful, and include the hours spent getting around, waiting in stealth, hauling the gear, etc. Just having 7 billion of loot sitting in a nullsec station is not enough. There is time and risk involved in moving the loot to high sec, whether it be waiting for a WH to open, or whether it be trying to blockade run it out. Also include any ship losses you incurred (you stated you lost a ship, but didn't elaborate).

Even if you produce those numbers, the sample set is too small. Perhaps you should spend another month in null, and something more than just "3 sessions". You know, if a similarly minded person went to a casino and pulled the slots 3 times, and on the 3rd try got a big jackpot, they may also think that slots is the best thing since sliced bread, and that slots must have a 1 in 3 win rate, not realizing that 3 sessions with 1 lucky session, could be followed by 25 unlucky sessions with no tangible gain.

Also, do you enjoy speaking in the third person? Now it really is starting to look more and more like a troll.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2013-10-23 11:40:52 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Speaking of incursions I read this a while ago and thought it might shed some light on incursions vs anoms thing even though they're completely seperate, one solable, the other requiring fleets...

this ancient post by a single renter npc corper is irrefutable evidence of, uh, something

Ridicule again, I saw this in 0. numerous times, the Incursion was often ignored and people moved to other systems to do anoms if they could, sometimes fleets will get formed to do them, but not often as most people prefer to do anoms because they have the ships there to do them effectively rather than a ship to do the Incursion, but it is a very good point by Infinity Ziona and using ridicule just does not cut it...


Its ignored because you have to risk so much for pretty much very little more than a highsec incursion. 0.0 incursions are annoying too because they actually inconvenience you, the gate rats hit really hard and JBs get offlined. For some reason highsec doesn't have anything like this maybe we need to make super goku npc gate camps in highsec and slow jumping into incursion systems down to 1 jump per minute.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#511 - 2013-10-23 11:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
You're the one that posted the thread, so you should be producing the statistics. What I am pointing out is your lack of conclusive evidence, trying to turn the tables by asking me to produce contrary statistics is an escapism inofitself and a fallacy. The other side of the argument (the ones talking about how good Incursions are) have produced the numbers - in terms of ISK/hour. You however have not, you are basing your entire thread on 3 plex sessions. If you're bored enough, you should probably post some more meaningful information, preferably over a larger sample set, such as:

- total hours spent in null over the course of 2 months
- total profit

You still haven't told us exactly how many hours were spent obtaining said 7 billion isk. Be truthful, and include the hours spent getting around, waiting in stealth, hauling the gear, etc. Just having 7 billion of loot sitting in a nullsec station is not enough. There is time and risk involved in moving the loot to high sec, whether it be waiting for a WH to open, or whether it be trying to blockade run it out. Also include any ship losses you incurred (you stated you lost a ship, but didn't elaborate).

Even if you produce those numbers, the sample set is too small. Perhaps you should spend another month in null, and something more than just "3 sessions". You know, if a similarly minded person went to a casino and pulled the slots 3 times, and on the 3rd try got a big jackpot, they may also think that slots is the best thing since sliced bread, and that slots must have a 1 in 3 win rate, not realizing that 3 sessions with 1 lucky session, could be followed by 25 unlucky sessions with no tangible gain.

Also, do you enjoy speaking in the third person? Now it really is starting to look more and more like a troll.

I didn't mention statistics. You said my experience doesn't match the statistics of others in regards to drop rates - I'm saying to you, show the statistics. If you have none then how can you possibly say my experience doesn't add up? What are you basing that on.

As I have already said previously in this thread, I play about 2 hours each night during the week and about 5 hours on a Saturday and Sunday. The sample set isn't enough for what? To compare to your nonexistent statistics? They're good enough for me given that they're really the only ones we have to go on right now

I died a total of 0 times. Hauling is not dangerous at all, there are wormholes in most systems, it takes all of 30 minutes usually to find a way back to high or low sec.

Regards my ship blowing up today, I was testing out Blood Raider Complexes in a Loki on test server.


La Nariz wrote:

Its ignored because you have to risk so much for pretty much very little more than a highsec incursion. 0.0 incursions are annoying too because they actually inconvenience you, the gate rats hit really hard and JBs get offlined. For some reason highsec doesn't have anything like this maybe we need to make super goku npc gate camps in highsec and slow jumping into incursion systems down to 1 jump per minute.

Translates in my head to, we make way more doing Anoms and Combat Sites, why would we risk our ships doing an incursion?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#512 - 2013-10-23 11:49:13 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Speaking of incursions I read this a while ago and thought it might shed some light on incursions vs anoms thing even though they're completely seperate, one solable, the other requiring fleets...

this ancient post by a single renter npc corper is irrefutable evidence of, uh, something

Ridicule again, I saw this in 0. numerous times, the Incursion was often ignored and people moved to other systems to do anoms if they could, sometimes fleets will get formed to do them, but not often as most people prefer to do anoms because they have the ships there to do them effectively rather than a ship to do the Incursion, but it is a very good point by Infinity Ziona and using ridicule just does not cut it...


Its ignored because you have to risk so much for pretty much very little more than a highsec incursion. 0.0 incursions are annoying too because they actually inconvenience you, the gate rats hit really hard and JBs get offlined. For some reason highsec doesn't have anything like this maybe we need to make super goku npc gate camps in highsec and slow jumping into incursion systems down to 1 jump per minute.


Higher risk for little more reward, true, however the point is that people do not run them, when they are actually at the same level of risk in an anom, The last 0.0 incursion I went through the gate rats were not too bad, its the low sec ones that make small children cry... But honestly, the risk is the same as running anoms, one could argue that because you are in a fleet you are better off too in terms of that risk.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#513 - 2013-10-23 11:59:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Higher risk for little more reward, true, however the point is that people do not run them, when they are actually at the same level of risk in an anom, The last 0.0 incursion I went through the gate rats were not too bad, its the low sec ones that make small children cry... But honestly, the risk is the same as running anoms, one could argue that because you are in a fleet you are better off too in terms of that risk.


Yeah that's not true at all, you have lots of expensive ships all located in one area, that definitely won't attract people who want to kill expensive stuff. From what you're saying you have no idea what you're talking about.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#514 - 2013-10-23 11:59:39 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:



Now they have decided to switch to incursions as an argument, despite specifically stating in the original thread that started all this that I was not talking about incursions and despite specifying that I was talking about missions in this threads original post.

I think its just an ego thing and they also are a bit upset that I exposed their isk printing machine most likely.


Some L4 stats for you to consider. All times are dock-dock, which I did because my agent has a habit of putting missions in the same place. (note my personal conversion was actually ~1400 because I can't be bothered moving from a navy).

@ conversion 1000 isk/lp
Dread pirate scarlet. Jumps : 2+2. Hull : Dominix. Elapsed : 25. Loot : 1 implant. effective isk/hr : 93m
Smash Supplier. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 6 Loot : nil. Effective isk/hr 99m
Serp assault. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 9 Loot : nil Effective isk/hr : 79m
Serp Blockade. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 23 Loot : nill Effective isk/hr : 78m

@conversion 3300 isk/lp (best anyone has admitted to)
Dread pirate scarlet. Jumps : 2+2. Hull : Dominix. Elapsed : 25. Loot : 1 implant. effective isk/hr : 130m
Smash Supplier. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 6 Loot : nil. Effective isk/hr 234m
Serp assault. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 9 Loot : nil Effective isk/hr : 181m
Serp Blockade. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 23 Loot : nill Effective isk/hr : 118m

average for an hours running in those missions at best conversion : 141m isk/hr.

How to make sure you are only doing tasty missions. use an alt to trigger more missions. Doubles the number you can free reject. find a location with 2 agents, for even smoother isk (as your rejects will be dominated by the many free ones you have)

Use the site to find the best conversions. Hint some of them are pretty stable.

Now consider how long it took to find your spot, and how much you fell behind the best converters in that time, and then reconsider when your loot streaks, which it will.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#515 - 2013-10-23 12:00:27 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Translates in my head to, we make way more doing Anoms and Combat Sites, why would we risk our ships doing an incursion?


Now we at least know you have a problem.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#516 - 2013-10-23 12:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustaf en Gravonere
what you are comparing is:

- your very limited null plex experience (a few hours a week for a month), which included an extremely lucky drop(s)

to

- extensive statistics that are well known regarding L4 mission and also incursion profit/hour

how can you have a sound argument?

what I said is that there are other people complaining that sometimes nothing drops. I did not say I have a large, numerical data set of how often nothing drops. All we know is that it does happen, otherwise people wouldn't be complaining about it. So since in your experience the phat loot drops, and we know that there are other people who maybe don't get drops for long periods of time, what we can conclude is that your side of the argument (pro-nullsec plexing) is disasterously lacking in any tangible and conclusive statistics.

Like I said, your argument water bucket is made of paper.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#517 - 2013-10-23 12:11:48 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Higher risk for little more reward, true, however the point is that people do not run them, when they are actually at the same level of risk in an anom, The last 0.0 incursion I went through the gate rats were not too bad, its the low sec ones that make small children cry... But honestly, the risk is the same as running anoms, one could argue that because you are in a fleet you are better off too in terms of that risk.


Yeah that's not true at all, you have lots of expensive ships all located in one area, that definitely won't attract people who want to kill expensive stuff. From what you're saying you have no idea what you're talking about.


Can you use Incursion gates with a carrier, not that I have ever tried of course, its a genuine question?

Because most renters or smaller alliances tend to keep less in 0.0 due to the risk, would I seriously keep my hisec incursion ship in 0.0, like Cobalt Edge for example which is 5 jumps to lowsec? You post yet again with your CFC lense firmly in place, its like Baltec talking as if the over crowded issues in Goon space was the same elsewhere. Resorting to personal insults,from a character who is from 20012, only been in the Goons, LMFAO at you!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#518 - 2013-10-23 12:14:35 UTC
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:


It is possible for me to run an anomaly while watching a film for instance. I only have to dscan if there are other people in system which mostly there are not*, whereas (bear in mind I only have experience with pvp fleets) I imagined that to take part in an incursion you would have to be on comms or dedicate a fair proportion of attention to broadcasts? I was under the impression that incursions were a "mains" kind of task, compared to solo stuff that is more friendly to using a second character to do while your main does whatever it does.


Incursions require attention, but no more so than just being in null sec ins space to begin with. I have literally hundreds of Incursion sites (mostly HQs and VGs, I didn't join the incursion craze when Assults were "good") behind me and let me tell you, it's about as intense as autopiloting. in the last 2 months of incursions I've maybe caught aggro twice. The FC "drives", you just sit back, relax, and stay anchored up.
Quote:

Then factor in things like the ability to wander off and go afk when a friend pops round, and then pick up where I left off when they leave, or that sometime I log on in the quiet hours when population is low, and I still feel like solo activities are somewhat different in nature to fleeting up with others. More flexible I should probably have said. With that flexibility it seems reasonable that there is a reduced income compared to the rigidity and increased income of fleet pve.

You mention needing other people to upgrade sov, and I sort of understand where you are coming from there. I am in fw and we require fleets to cooperate to bust systems and such which I guess is analogous to the kind of thing you mean. But then that only effects those who care, we are also flooded with farmer alts that never contribute to system upgrades or bunker busting and still farm the systems. In the same way someone like me can appear in sov null and ninja some of the benefits without being a member of the holders alliance, incurring costs, or contributing positively in any way. So I don't quite see a direct link between the ability to run sites in null and having to work with others to earn that ability, even though for those in the "in group" the link would seem entirely direct.


You said it yourself, you have no incursion experience. Hell, some communites let people dual box in incursions.

Quote:

If i can try to put it simply, and I'm not great at doing so, I see that incursions (as far as I understand them) require teamwork 100% of the time. But running sites only requires teamwork if you care about certain conditions. That's the core of why I feel they aren't equal.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why having a lv4 alt is good, hell - I still have mine as a backup! - because the income is so easy. I am not sure if it is better or worse once travel/cloaked time/other considerations are taken into account, but I have seen in my eve-time that many people will take maximum ease over maximum gain if the option is available to them. Whether high/low/null income is in balance I am not sure and certainly not qualified to opine, it was only comparing solo to fleet activities that seemed strange to me.

Either way, the numbers quoted in this thread blow my mind, I have never made a billion in a night even on a good night! I just added the bit about fun as with all the ad hominems in the thread I thought it would be nice to inject a little lightheartedness!

(*I don't mean to imply null sec is totally empty, but that I move on until I find somewhere that is quiet or try another hole.)


Income is totally out of whack when all factors are considered. Thats why low sec (with its lucrative faction warfare, level 5 missions, new tag dropping npcs, lvl 5 missions and lvl 4s with more rewards than high sec is relatively empty compared to high sec (I used low sec this time because just typing the word null makes the prejudiced people start yelling).

I'm a PVe player. I do PVE for fun. I've done everything in low and null from Dual ASB maelstroms and vargs in lvl 5s to ninja plexing proteuses in cloud ring to null sec cosmos sites. EVERYTHING.

And yet I still have lvl 4 high sec mission alts which I've converted to high sec incursion alts. I personally hate missions, but I run 4 accounts and it's sooo much less of a hassle to do PVE in high sec than it is anywhere else, and because my mach or navy raven isn't blingy and i'm nto wardecced, there is zero risk (except risk of luls when a guy comes in and tries to get me to aggress, like I'm some 2012 character lol).

I've farmed anomalies in null sec with many set ups, like Vindi + double FoF tengus in guristas space, Nightmare plus Typhoon fleet issue in Blood Raiders space, triple Domis in drone regions etc. Only to fighure out that all you really needs is ONE logi ship in empire, get into an incursion fleet, and make the same or sometimes more isk in HIGH SEC.

It's ridicules. if Infinity Ziona wanted to know the truth of high sec vs the rest, he'd compare the amount of effort he's doing (using multiple accounts to ninja) vs the amount of effort of doing empire lvl 4s for the right factions (hello sisters probes and nomad implants......) or using ONE account in incursions.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#519 - 2013-10-23 12:20:24 UTC
March rabbit wrote:



yea, need to agree watching local is deadly effort Shocked
that's why i lost so many carebear ships for my life in 0.0Cry[/quote]

Someone wanna explain to March Rabbit that anecdotal evidence isn't evidence?

You here this a lot from some people "well, i never lost a ship". Well, i've never lost my ishtar or rattlesnake in a lvl 5 mission, therefore rattlesnakes and ishtars are immune to lvl 5s and low sec is safer than high sec.

The above sentence is me trying to mimick high sec stupidity lol.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#520 - 2013-10-23 12:28:46 UTC
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
and in addition:


Jenn pretty much hit the nail on the head on all of your character flaws, reasoning flaws and basic
stubbornness and inability to carry on a logical argument that doesn't leak like a paper bucket,


Well, I don't know about Infinity's character flaws, maybe he needs to train Advanced Weapons Upgrades 5, that always fixed my characters flaws (Smile).

But really,it's ok, Infinity can think whatever crap he wants to, these forums are just a talking shop. it's a bit irritating to see people call a blue sky red and then look at you like YOU are crazy for calling it blue (that's the mental image I get when i read infinity claiming yet again that null sec is safer than high...totally ignoring the varifiable facts of ship kills in total and especially per capita).