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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#5721 - 2013-10-16 11:35:34 UTC
Shantetha wrote:

see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.

and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.

Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.

You make up the perfect hypothetical situation where the marauder pilot:
1. Is alone, has no friends
2. Does not see YOU and your small gang on scan
3. Has not station/carrier/POS w/e access to reship, while your gang mysteriously does.

And use that as the basis for your argument? /golfclap

Ok, here's a counter argument using your method:
1. Marauder pilot sees your small gang on scan
2. Marauder calls in (new) EAF pilots and pins down your gang while putting facemelting DPS into your ships
3. Marauder has NOS and/or neuts and survives your neutageddon
4. Marauder does not suffer from ewar you bring

etc. etc.

Most ridiculous argument ever Roll
Tramar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5722 - 2013-10-16 11:37:11 UTC
The Djego wrote:

It is a great shame that marauders don't get her a single of core problems revisited(quite similar to hybrids) and instead get dumped down into a even smaller niche, lose her appeal for her old applications and will overall end up as ineffective lazy mode ships. Overall one more time that CCP shows that they have little understanding of the use of her ships and the overall game mechanics, and completely ignoring feedback for people that actually use the hulls in a halve decent way.

So true, this new update makes them even more situational than they were before, especially in null/low.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5723 - 2013-10-16 11:50:00 UTC
The Djego wrote:


Nonsense, the web bouns is fairly useful for a lot of stuff while the tank is completely useless for any proficient L4 pilot(because you don't need any kind of serious tank for L4) and the speed and and dps nerfs make them crap for nearly any other application.


It has the same firepower from the guns now as it did before. The web bonus is pointless when you are going to be engaging at 80+ km. Its use would be for close range blaster work at which point you are better off in a vindi which is faster, has more firepower and can dictate range.

The Djego wrote:


Also rattlesnake is the cheapest pirate BS for a reason.


Yes, there are 25000 CFC grinding them up.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5724 - 2013-10-16 12:02:27 UTC
I dunno seeing as the range bonus is stacking penalised I'll probably use the mjd to jump my ship into all the rats activate bastion and blap from close range (AC's) the web bonus would have been useful for this tactic the reduced drone bay doesn't help either
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5725 - 2013-10-16 12:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


Nonsense, the web bouns is fairly useful for a lot of stuff while the tank is completely useless for any proficient L4 pilot(because you don't need any kind of serious tank for L4) and the speed and and dps nerfs make them crap for nearly any other application.


It has the same firepower from the guns now as it did before. The web bonus is pointless when you are going to be engaging at 80+ km. Its use would be for close range blaster work at which point you are better off in a vindi which is faster, has more firepower and can dictate range.


To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world, where a slow ass and most of the time static(for prolonged times) sniper fit BS can dictate range and doesn't get utterly nailed by a tackler and a few ships with neuts warping on top of it. The Kronos is a much better sentry and rail platform than the Vindi(it will not be that after the changes since the dps without sentry's is pathetic and the new speed for repositioning is just horrible) because it can fit active tank, rails and drone links. Also rails can one volley frigs if you properly utilize a overheated 90% web and take them down at 18km with 2 tracking scripted TCs + javelin plus making the ship actually apply damage at point blank(what is a huge drawback on other rail/sentry platforms like the navy domi or the hype).

It becomes useless for pve with rails by the changes(because the dps is just a joke compared other rail/sentry platforms like the navy domi and hype) and blaster fitted it is also worse than it is today, because it got a close range weapon, can't freely move, has no web strength and overall a lot less damage application and range compared to a rail/sentry Kronos of today.

baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


Also rattlesnake is the cheapest pirate BS for a reason.


Yes, there are 25000 CFC grinding them up.


It is the least used hull in pvp and pve, because the huge tank is only useful for lazy people and a few minor niches and it is just to slow and clumsy in pvp.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5726 - 2013-10-16 12:13:34 UTC
The Djego wrote:


To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world



Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about.


baltec1 wrote:


It is the least used hull in pvp and pve, because the huge tank is only useful for lazy people and a few minor niches and it is just to slow and clumsy in pvp.


Its also the most heavily farmed of the 4 ships.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5727 - 2013-10-16 12:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world



Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about.


I actually tested them on sissi and they are crap compared to what they are atm. The difference might be that I fly marauders since a couple of years and know how to utilize them properly.

Also FFA pvp has little to do with real pvp.

baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


It is the least used hull in pvp and pve, because the huge tank is only useful for lazy people and a few minor niches and it is just to slow and clumsy in pvp.


Its also the most heavily farmed of the 4 ships.


It is still the least used hull, no matter if it gets farmed to hell and back and only costs 1/3 of the other hulls.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5728 - 2013-10-16 12:19:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Octoven wrote:


To be fair I actually did get on SIS grab a pally and naga and fit them as i describe here and guess what the pally is slightly more dps...but the cost isnt worth 60-80 more dps.


You get E-war immunity, a massive active tank, a big resist bump and better damage applied at long range.

The naga is a glass cannon that a single intercepter will kill.


Yet in your own words:

Quote:
... long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km.


So a glass ship shouldnt matter as you will kill them before they get in range to hit you. PLUS you dont need the bastion mode to lock you down for 1 minute thus if you do feel as if you aren't going to survive you can warp unlike the marauder which ties your hands.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5729 - 2013-10-16 12:25:50 UTC
The Djego wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:


To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world



Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about.


I actually tested them on sissi and they are crap compared to what they are atm. The difference might be that I fly marauders since a couple of years and know how to utilize them properly.

Also FFA pvp has little to do with real pvp.



Let me guess, you went and did pve and no pvp, saw no gain and so they are useless to you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5730 - 2013-10-16 12:26:55 UTC
Octoven wrote:


So a glass ship shouldnt matter as you will kill them before they get in range to hit you. PLUS you dont need the bastion mode to lock you down for 1 minute thus if you do feel as if you aren't going to survive you can warp unlike the marauder which ties your hands.


That glass ship can take near no punishment while the marauder can.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5731 - 2013-10-16 12:27:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Octoven wrote:


So a glass ship shouldnt matter as you will kill them before they get in range to hit you. PLUS you dont need the bastion mode to lock you down for 1 minute thus if you do feel as if you aren't going to survive you can warp unlike the marauder which ties your hands.


That glass ship can take near no punishment while the marauder can.


Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5732 - 2013-10-16 12:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:

[list]
  • Capacitor has been decreased from 8000 to 7500 on the Paladin.

  • Drone bay has been restored to 75m3 on the Paladin and Golem, 125m3 on the Kronos and 75m3 on the Vargur.

  • Max Velocity has been increased to 100m/s on the Paladin and Golem, 105 on the Kronos and 110 on the Vargur.

  • Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur.

  • Shield HP has been increased from 6300 to 6900 on the Paladin, 8000 to 8800 on the Golem, 6600 to 7300 on the Kronos, 7500 to 8300 on the Vargur.

  • Armor HP has been increased from 8000 to 8800 on the Paladin, 6100 to 6700 on the Golem, 7200 to 7900 on the Kronos, 6600 to 7300 on the Vargur.

  • Hull HP has been increased from 7700 to 8500 on the Paladin, 7000 to 7700 on the Golem, 8600 to 9500 on the Kronos, 6300 to 6900 on the Vargur.


    • Why buffing those hulls?

  • As mentioned here and based on your feedback, we realized the hulls have been overnerfed in iteration 1 next to the benefits given by Bastion.


    • Why restoring their drone bay to their original values, but keeping the nerfs to the bandwidth?

  • Mainly because those hulls are not supposed to use large drones, especially sentries in combat. They are supposed to use their main turrets / launchers, combined with Bastion mode to deliver damage, and use MJD to move around the battlefield. On those vessels, drones are limited to a support role, indicated by the low bandwidth. However, we have nothing against keeping a bit of flexibility by having high drone bays to allow replacement waves.


    • Why removing the web bonuses?

  • As we realized when internally playtesting iteration 2, web bonuses don't combine that well with hulls using MJDs to move around or increased projection in Bastion. When we gave them web bonuses we had to nerf them from 10% to 7.5% per level not to overstep on ships like the Vindicator, which by itself was a sign that we were trying to take over a role already fulfilled by the Pirate Battleships. Marauders are not supposed to fill the same niche than their Pirate counterpart, which led us to remove those web bonuses and revert back to iteration 1. Trying to hit orbiting NPC frigates at close range with those hulls is not a good idea either, just use your MJD and snipe them before they can come back in range. If you wish to hit close range targets, the Vindicator is much better for that purpose, as it is tailored for Blasters.


    • Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?

  • Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. Max velocity nerf is a good way to compensate, especially when considering the fact they have MJDs at their disposal to hop around the battlefield. However, the first speed nerf was a bit harsh, which is why we are mitigating it by increasing their max velocity a bit next to iteration 1.


    • Why do those hulls have lower mass next to their tech I counterparts?

  • Having less mass help with max MWD velocity and align time. The first one partially helps to compensate the Max Velocity nerf (they're not as mobile than tech I, we estimate their top speed to be 10% slower with MWDs), the second one helps to make those hulls less vulnerable when coming out of bastion mode to align and warp out. Aligning is especially important for MJDs, and we estimated it was a good aspect to preserve.


    • Why buffing the EHP?

  • For being the epitome of tanking, they shouldn't have reduced EHP next to their tech I, Navy or Pirate counterpart. We wanted to avoid giving them full Tech II resists outside Basion Mode to avoid broad use in RR fleets, but we still felt the need to give them some buffer to help survivability as a whole. In practice, that means the Marauders now have 39-41k raw EHP, which compares favorably next to Navy Battleships (35-41k) or Pirate Battleships (34-41k).


    • Why nerfing the capacitor on the Paladin?

  • Combined with the Capacitor bonus it gets it was just too high before. It's not much of a nerf however, but it helps with the general balance of those hulls.


    • Why didn't you buff the fittings?

  • We estimate the CPU / PWG on them to be adequate. We are aware of some tight fittings, but we don't want those hulls to be able to easily fit a full rack of top tier turrets / launchers with Energy Neutralizers plus a full tank, as it would be quite over the top.


    • Why not moving a high-slot to med or low?

  • We feel like the extra high-slot to be needed to compensate for the use of the Bastion module - adding an extra med or low slot could make those hulls quite too much powerful in combat situations.


    • Why not adding damage to the Bastion mode?

  • Those hulls are not supposed to be outdamaging competition, as this would be favoring the power-creep. They are supposed to fulfill a different role / niche through their high tanks, stable weapon platforms (EW immunity, increase damage projection) and MJDs. It's all about trade-offs; if you wish more damaging hulls, then look for Pirate Battleships / Navy Battleships for that particular purpose, knowing full well you will pay for it in other areas.


    • Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?

    [*] We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ...
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #5733 - 2013-10-16 12:30:26 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    gascanu wrote:

    i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s


    They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).




    Another one of your delusions.
    All those guys in Paladins and Kronos in incursions are doing wrong, right?
    And the all Paladin/2 Oni fleet that mopped the floor with all the other armour fleets, and many shield fleets, that doesn't happen, right.

    Give it up.

    We all know that you are trolling, or recognize that these proposed changes wreck the class of boat. A class you have no intention of using, so your attempts a defending this abomination is because of the jollies you get on wrecking the game for others.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5734 - 2013-10-16 12:32:29 UTC
    Octoven wrote:


    Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.


    Things go wrong, in which case you have that massive tank to fall back on.
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #5735 - 2013-10-16 12:32:39 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:


    To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world



    Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about.


    I actually tested them on sissi and they are crap compared to what they are atm. The difference might be that I fly marauders since a couple of years and know how to utilize them properly.

    Also FFA pvp has little to do with real pvp.



    Let me guess, you went and did pve and no pvp, saw no gain and so they are useless to you.


    Yes I in fact did test them for pve(let me guess you didn't at all), because that is what they where designed for and what they are used for most of the time. I also did use them in a FFA and it is just "lol bastion, dual rep tank, mjd out lol" what looks funny on sissi but nobody would do this with a billion isk ship on TQ, quite similar to that not anybody uses vindicators or machs in pvp, because they cost more than 100 ISK in the market.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    Quish McQuiddy
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #5736 - 2013-10-16 12:34:31 UTC
    And sadly - the vargur dies.

    700 dps with artillery, that at 100k will be more like 400 dps.

    A pointless ship with the changes - its DPS has always required close contact and mobility - so it cannot benefit from bastion, MJD or nerfed drone bay.

    Why do they all have to be the same in tanking bonus, MJD bonus etc, then how can 1000 dps match 400-500 dps
    Shantetha
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #5737 - 2013-10-16 12:36:43 UTC
    lollerwaffle wrote:
    Shantetha wrote:

    see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.

    and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.

    Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.

    You make up the perfect hypothetical situation where the marauder pilot:
    1. Is alone, has no friends
    2. Does not see YOU and your small gang on scan
    3. Has not station/carrier/POS w/e access to reship, while your gang mysteriously does.

    And use that as the basis for your argument? /golfclap

    Ok, here's a counter argument using your method:
    1. Marauder pilot sees your small gang on scan
    2. Marauder calls in (new) EAF pilots and pins down your gang while putting facemelting DPS into your ships
    3. Marauder has NOS and/or neuts and survives your neutageddon
    4. Marauder does not suffer from ewar you bring

    etc. etc.

    Most ridiculous argument ever Roll


    i was actually considering both sides had EAF + support which if you had bothered reading..

    the marauder could run nos as someone else said they had 360 cap worth of NOS with an 800 cap injector (2 neuts takes care of that including the cap regen and for the geddon 1 nos + 800 cap booster leaves you with 10 min of cap time under that nos. Running neuts on the other hand the marauder will make itself even more cap vulnerable.

    The point of that was was 2 small gangs, if 1 sees a marauder you are going to reship to a 200m hull because you can get a 1.2-1.5+b killmail.
    lollerwaffle wrote:

    4. Marauder does not suffer from ewar you bring

    The marauder doesn't need to suffer the ewar, besides it's only immune when actively using bastion. It's one less ship that needs to be ewar'd in the fleet. Allowing you instead to apply more it's support fleet. Besides scram still works once it exits bastion.

    again this argument is just as valid as baltec1's argument that small gangs with marauders are going to be unstoppable. Here is a direct counter that is far cheaper to field and just the thought of how easy it is a neut an active tanked marauder to the ground will discourage all but the fool hardy or stupidly wealthy from fielding marauders in pvp.

    Octoven
    Stellar Production
    #5738 - 2013-10-16 12:39:11 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


    Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread Blink.


    Yes it does help, I now know the paladin is useless I will be selling mine, thank you.
    To mare
    Advanced Technology
    #5739 - 2013-10-16 12:39:26 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur.

    Roll
    Debora Tsung
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #5740 - 2013-10-16 12:39:33 UTC
    Octoven wrote:


    Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.


    Unless ofc. a real sniper ship enters the field and destroys your glass cannon with the first volley.

    Also, Interceptors + Your allign time.

    Lets presume you're indeed 80km away from your target.

    An intercepor can go how fast? 5.5km/s? maybe even more? Average.
    I've seen the "how to build the fastest ship in EVE" Video. Shocked

    That means in average You've got 14.54 seconds to kill that interceptor... lets say 18 seconds because it has to accelerate first (see, I'm nice). You'll have to target it first and in Your Nado You'll need Arties to hit that far...

    No chance. The interceptor is under your guns before the targeting cycle is finished. You warp either immediately or not at all.

    Not that big of a problem for the Marauder, I guess.

    Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

    Fighting back is more fun than not.

    Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.