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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5701 - 2013-10-16 08:19:56 UTC
gascanu wrote:


hint: kronos is not the only "one" marauder out there Straight


It highlights the problem they had though.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5702 - 2013-10-16 08:51:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:


hint: kronos is not the only "one" marauder out there Straight


It highlights the problem they had though.


not really: a marauder in a guristas anom was one of the worst choices you could do; marauder main weakness is their poor sensor strength;
knowing that guristas racial ew is ecm, why will anyone bring a marauder close is beyond me
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5703 - 2013-10-16 08:51:46 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#5704 - 2013-10-16 09:19:49 UTC
Id very much like to see the proposed changes before its "Lol too late patch is already going live in a week!"

Also, Kronos still has **** dps beyond 40km. due to lack of sentry drones.

Vargur has generally **** dps anyway if it needs to stand still(cant take advantage of its mobility, WHICH IT DOESNT HAVE ANYMORE)

Also, bastion module stacking penalized with other modules just screws torps and Golem so badly over its not even funny.

Vargur and blaster Kronos is even worse.



Im actually really disappointed, I seriously hope youre not releasing the Vargur and Kronos in this condition, also. more info about getting any sort of use outside of bastion? I seriously CAN NOT FATHOM you made it WORSE outside of Bastion than THEY CURRENTLY ARE.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5705 - 2013-10-16 09:38:26 UTC
gascanu wrote:

not really: a marauder in a guristas anom was one of the worst choices you could do; marauder main weakness is their poor sensor strength;
knowing that guristas racial ew is ecm, why will anyone bring a marauder close is beyond me


So they were not only outclassed in pvp but were near useless in a lot of pve.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5706 - 2013-10-16 09:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Shantetha
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Scram you so you can't MJD... Thats what my Hyena will do. And web you so you are even slower than your already slow pace.
Yes, they are made for different jobs. But the Machariel is almost as good at the Marauders job as the Marauder is. While the Marauder sucks at the Machariels job. Meaning overall the Marauder is significantly a worse ship.


Web incoming hyena with ours, pop it at range with the rails, put both webs on the mach.

Again, please show us the mach that can match the tank, resists and extra range of the new kronos.



see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.

and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.

Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#5707 - 2013-10-16 09:47:02 UTC
Shantetha wrote:

see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals. The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.


My golem now has 3 large vamps and a lot more cap boosters than your geddon.

Have fun. Straight

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5708 - 2013-10-16 09:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Shantetha wrote:



see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals. The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.

and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.

Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.


Where did you get that neutgeddon from in null?Blink

If you bring a neutgeddon with you, and you use probes etc and get the marauder then yea, its gonna suffer. But your average roaming gang is not going to have one. Come november the average roaming gang is going to be light, fast and E-War heavy. They might bring a curse but not likely. Battleships are going to be rare, people think they are too slow in warp.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#5709 - 2013-10-16 10:47:10 UTC
Good changes, just ignore the themepark carebears, they will always cry in sandbox mmo-rpg forums, it's in their DNA.

The Tears Must Flow

Octoven
Noir Holdings
#5710 - 2013-10-16 10:54:35 UTC
The real killer for me is pretty much the price of it, and im sure existing marauder pilots wont mind the cost but those who havent trained into them will. Basically you have a battleship that is designed to tank and snipe...i cant even begin to wonder what CCP was smoking with that concept. You either tank or snipe you dont do both.

The Bastion Mod would be perfect for those who are CQ brawlers, but to be honest it is absolutely pointless in a sniping role. Again would be the MJD bonus. If you are sniping you need not warp in and MJD out 100km thats a bit redundant just flipping warp in at 100km

Overall you can take for instance a Naga, slap on some tracking computers with optimal range scripts and shoot. Granted in most cases that will be rails but as many have pointed out if a ship is burning toward you it has no transveral and goes instapop.
The question is why in the hell would I drop 2.5 billion isk spend 3 months to train into for instance a paladin when I can spend a little over 100 mil and train into a Naga in far less time and essentially do the same in terms of role and damage?

The only real benefit would be the MJD bonus because in a sniping role I definitely wouldnt want to tank it and have to be locked in place for 1 minute.

CCP can continue with their changes but imo they have seriously ****** up the role of marauders. I can't really see many players who havent trained into them actually training into them.
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5711 - 2013-10-16 11:05:09 UTC
Is anything going to be done about Kronos and Vargur DPS now that Marauders are mandated to be long range boats?

Using a Vargur with artillery is a joke - a Dominix has better range, more than enough tank, and way better dps, nearly every T1 BS outperforms it.

With autocannons, its barely better than T1s, and it got stuck with having to fly to its targets to apply it - now, you get stuck with low dps in both cases.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#5712 - 2013-10-16 11:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
baltec1 wrote:
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:

i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s


They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).




nah, few peps showed they are very good at pvp. if you didn't saw those videos you never played eve : D

also they are the best ratting mashines becouse they salavage at the same time so best isk/hour with single ship : )

with vargur on angels you can make easy 70m/20min : >


We used to rat with blasters in anoms and we didn't use them. Not only were they easy to jam but the Vindi was better. Thats the story of the kronos, whatever job you gave it the vindi would do it better.


well i am sure not after this patch, witch carrier sentrys and railguns + 4x slavager kronos will be uber ratting maschine :>

you drop this wreck puling thing salavage all the wrecks and carier pick up the loot xd.

vindi can't do that :P

and vindi can't pull/savage wrecks like kronos ... so vinid ain't better in everything : )
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5713 - 2013-10-16 11:09:25 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.

and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.

Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.


This is idiotic. I can use the "see it on dscan, reship into the direct counter" argument to "prove" that every ship in the game is an underpowered piece of crap.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#5714 - 2013-10-16 11:11:09 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Is anything going to be done about Kronos and Vargur DPS now that Marauders are mandated to be long range boats?

Using a Vargur with artillery is a joke - a Dominix has better range, more than enough tank, and way better dps, nearly every T1 BS outperforms it.

With autocannons, its barely better than T1s, and it got stuck with having to fly to its targets to apply it - now, you get stuck with low dps in both cases.


true but they can salv/loot and the same time :)

if they had more dps/range they would be to powerful ... think about it
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5715 - 2013-10-16 11:11:23 UTC
Octoven wrote:
The real killer for me is pretty much the price of it, and im sure existing marauder pilots wont mind the cost but those who havent trained into them will. Basically you have a battleship that is designed to tank and snipe...i cant even begin to wonder what CCP was smoking with that concept. You either tank or snipe you dont do both.

The Bastion Mod would be perfect for those who are CQ brawlers, but to be honest it is absolutely pointless in a sniping role. Again would be the MJD bonus. If you are sniping you need not warp in and MJD out 100km thats a bit redundant just flipping warp in at 100km

Overall you can take for instance a Naga, slap on some tracking computers with optimal range scripts and shoot. Granted in most cases that will be rails but as many have pointed out if a ship is burning toward you it has no transveral and goes instapop.
The question is why in the hell would I drop 2.5 billion isk spend 3 months to train into for instance a paladin when I can spend a little over 100 mil and train into a Naga in far less time and essentially do the same in terms of role and damage?

The only real benefit would be the MJD bonus because in a sniping role I definitely wouldnt want to tank it and have to be locked in place for 1 minute.

CCP can continue with their changes but imo they have seriously ****** up the role of marauders. I can't really see many players who havent trained into them actually training into them.


This is a prime example of someone who has looked at the basic idea on paper and never tested it.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#5716 - 2013-10-16 11:12:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Johann Rascali wrote:
I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to.


The second iteration was terrible.
no, actually it was a better stab at a compromise, for those who still use their web bonuses (granted it was stupid to slap the bonus on all 4 Marauders), and T2 resists were way superior for anything 'non' solo. You still had the range buffing effect of bastion too.

I get it that you don't make use of webs, that's great for you, but your shield tanking Megathron is a gimmick, nothing more, and really won't work at all with the warp acceleration changes coming in...


It got rid of the massive reps and resists which is the biggest selling point of these new ships in exchange for a web bonus on a ship with range bonuses. It made zero sense and its only fans are the min/max bears who only ever do level 4s. It would have been useless in pvp.

The Kronos is already used in PvP and has been since it came out, I don't understand why you continue to deny this.

Why? A 90% web, plus 3 utility highs, plus the equivalent to 8 blasters. Yes sensor strength was a pita, but you could work around that and if you were solo in a Battleship hull it made little difference. Mine was always fit with double smartbombs plus neut. Switched from Ion's to Neutrons this last year when MJD came out and made things interesting. Eventually got titan bridged onto, oh noes...

Clearly you don't/have not used it is it's current form - I get that, but your experience of PvP is not the be all and end all of everything that goes on, on TQ.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Octoven
Noir Holdings
#5717 - 2013-10-16 11:20:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Octoven wrote:
The real killer for me is pretty much the price of it, and im sure existing marauder pilots wont mind the cost but those who havent trained into them will. Basically you have a battleship that is designed to tank and snipe...i cant even begin to wonder what CCP was smoking with that concept. You either tank or snipe you dont do both.

The Bastion Mod would be perfect for those who are CQ brawlers, but to be honest it is absolutely pointless in a sniping role. Again would be the MJD bonus. If you are sniping you need not warp in and MJD out 100km thats a bit redundant just flipping warp in at 100km

Overall you can take for instance a Naga, slap on some tracking computers with optimal range scripts and shoot. Granted in most cases that will be rails but as many have pointed out if a ship is burning toward you it has no transveral and goes instapop.
The question is why in the hell would I drop 2.5 billion isk spend 3 months to train into for instance a paladin when I can spend a little over 100 mil and train into a Naga in far less time and essentially do the same in terms of role and damage?

The only real benefit would be the MJD bonus because in a sniping role I definitely wouldnt want to tank it and have to be locked in place for 1 minute.

CCP can continue with their changes but imo they have seriously ****** up the role of marauders. I can't really see many players who havent trained into them actually training into them.


This is a prime example of someone who has looked at the basic idea on paper and never tested it.


To be fair I actually did get on SIS grab a pally and naga and fit them as i describe here and guess what the pally is slightly more dps...but the cost isnt worth 60-80 more dps.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5718 - 2013-10-16 11:30:57 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:

The Kronos is already used in PvP and has been since it came out, I don't understand why you continue to deny this.


[/quote]

It is as rare to find in pvp as a sentinel.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5719 - 2013-10-16 11:33:08 UTC
Octoven wrote:


To be fair I actually did get on SIS grab a pally and naga and fit them as i describe here and guess what the pally is slightly more dps...but the cost isnt worth 60-80 more dps.


You get E-war immunity, a massive active tank, a big resist bump and better damage applied at long range.

The naga is a glass cannon that a single intercepter will kill.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#5720 - 2013-10-16 11:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
baltec1 wrote:

It got rid of the massive reps and resists which is the biggest selling point of these new ships in exchange for a web bonus on a ship with range bonuses. It made zero sense and its only fans are the min/max bears who only ever do level 4s. It would have been useless in pvp.


Nonsense, the web bouns is fairly useful for a lot of stuff while the tank is completely useless for any proficient L4 pilot(because you don't need any kind of serious tank for L4 and active tanking is only a small niche for pvp to) and the speed and and dps nerfs make them crap for nearly any other application.

Also rattlesnake is the cheapest pirate BS for a reason(because it is useless outside semi afk pve and station games/engaging gate camps and a similar thing was true for the hype). People always tell that this things will be useful in balance threads while they don't fly the ships enough to see that they only cover a very small niche while being overall not used for much else.

It is a great shame that marauders don't get a single of her core problems revisited(quite similar to hybrids) and instead get dumped down into a even smaller niche, lose her appeal for her old applications and will overall end up as ineffective lazy mode ships. Overall one more time that CCP shows that they have little understanding of the use of her ships and the overall game mechanics and completely ignoring feedback for people that actually use the hulls in a halve decent way in favour of feedback from people that are to dump to fly L4 with minimum tank, think that it would be effective for L5 by the tank(I can do them in nighthawk and rattlesnake to, that doesn't mean they are efficient for it) or comedy pvp scenarios where a static 1B isk BS would not be a bad idea.

The best pve use of marauders, is actually WH and Incs, where bastion is completely useless, because you spider tank/use logis and the web bonus is worth it's weight in gold.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread