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[Rubicon] [Updated] Interdictor Rebalance

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xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2013-10-15 16:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
The best way to address this (although probably too late now) is in a similar way to how old command ships worked:

1) Give the old interdictors stats geared toward small-scale pvp / gatecamping, much like the proposals in the OP
2) Use the newer destroyer models to make 'fleet interdictors' with bonuses to speed / agility / EHP.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#82 - 2013-10-15 16:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Interdictors ahoy!
The single biggest buff these guys are getting is from the already announced warp speed changes, where their 8au/s will allow them to get on their targets extremely quickly.








ahahaha, great rebalance Fozzie: their 8au/s will allow them to get on their targets extremely quickly.

so they will get to their targets "extremely quikly" so they can ... die "extremely quickly", eh? i get it now ... great "rebalance"
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#83 - 2013-10-15 16:17:59 UTC
shouldn't interdictors be regarded as interceptor versions of T1 dessies like inties are of T1 frigs ...
i.e. smaller faster and able to use MWD's effectively without being popped immediately??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#84 - 2013-10-15 16:25:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
shouldn't interdictors be regarded as interceptor versions of T1 dessies like inties are of T1 frigs ...
i.e. smaller faster and able to use MWD's effectively without being popped immediately??


dictors are t2 version of t1 destroiers, they are more skill intensive, more expensive and... and that's it; oh and they can drop bubbles so they can die in it;

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-10-15 16:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Maximus Andendare wrote:
It really should be a ship (and indeed the whole Roden line) that lets you choose which weapons system you want to use instead of only 4 of each weapon hardpoint. It's not even about damage output. Balance that around having all of one weapon on the ship. It's about optimal range/max flight time, instant weapon damage, etc. This is a step backward, Fozzie.


I have to second this. I really don't want to see missile split weapon systems again, especially after this was fixed in the Minmatar T1 line. The Khanid lineup changes to add light missiles on top of rockets are nice, as it gives Amarr ships a secondary weapon system that actually works for the range the ships operate at, but the Roden line with split systems is just terrible. Please set up bonuses and hardpoints similar to the Scythe Fleet Issue - to use your words:

"Instead of forcing both weapon systems it gives both as viable choices." -CCP Fozzie
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#86 - 2013-10-15 16:31:20 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why do all races have missile ships now?

I don't get it.. We don't see lasers or Ac's being flavour for other races :S


I would not mind having a Caldari Laser ship on another hull. I'm just saying.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#87 - 2013-10-15 16:31:52 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
shouldn't interdictors be regarded as interceptor versions of T1 dessies like inties are of T1 frigs ...
i.e. smaller faster and able to use MWD's effectively without being popped immediately??


dictors are t2 version of t1 destroiers, they are more skill intensive, more expensive and... and that's it; oh and they can drop bubbles so they can die in it;


Agreed. Still flying coffins.

Hay CCP, have you guys thought about giving them bubble/interdiction nullification like the Interceptors? If they could MWD around through bubbles they'd be worth something... but right now they are just racing faster to a certain death.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#88 - 2013-10-15 16:49:16 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Try again on the Eris, Fozzie. The "new generation" split weapon systems (as seen on the Minmatar Fleet Issue ships) are amazing and done 100% correctly. The Eris' new split weapon system is exactly the same "old generation" design that was deemed as bad and worthless and then targeted for removal.


Well put.

It seems like the damage and speed bonuses move these ships toward filling a T2 dessie role, rather than helping much with their current 0.0 role, which requires much more survivability than they currently or will, given these changes, have. It would be cool to use them as solo, T2 dessie platforms (like some currently do with the Sabre) but it would be better to also be able to tank them (sig tank esp.) well to survive for more than a second in null.

Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-10-15 16:53:06 UTC
It looks like these are being designed with a 7 weapons + bubble setup in mind with very little consideration being given to the 6 weapons + bubble + cloak setup. The Heretic looks like it would be in the worse shape with the cloak setup since it would drop to 7.25 weapon slots with only 1 damage bonus, at least the Sabre still gets a tracking and damage bonus.

I like the idea of the Eris being able to fit blasters or missiles, but with the limit at 4 of either of them you are forcing us to fit both; increase the turret and launcher slots to 6 so that people can choose one or the other, and use both only when they want to go for max damage. Isn't that what you did for the Scythe FI?

Another problem I have with the Eris is the 2 mids; the ship gets a turret falloff bonus which naturally points towards using blasters, but with only 2 mids you can take either a web or a scram but not both. The only other blaster ship with 2 mids is the Catalyst, but at least that one gets a 10% tracking bonus to make up for the lack of a web.

Would changing the Eris' layout to 7H, 3M, 4L; 6 turrets, 6 launchers leave it in too good a shape? People can still reach a 10.5 weapon slots equivalent by using 6 turrets and a launcher or vice versa, if they fit an interdiction probe launcher they can match the Flycatcher's 9 weapon slots and if they go for the popular bubble + cloak they will be at 7.5 weapon slots which is still better than the Heretic and Sabre in a similar setup.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#90 - 2013-10-15 16:57:06 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
David Kir wrote:
And there we go, the Minmatar ships has the worst agility of the lot.
Yup, makes sense.

Well, it has the best speed and with a nano it's the most agile and speediest dictor.
Standard lowslot is nano and gyro, and it will still perform amazingly. The Sabre is not magically **** just because the other dictors are not.



Well DUH. fit an agility mod and its agile! And then fit one on 'any other dictor' and its less so. Its a nerf!

Minmatar are meant to be small and agile and fragile in place of slow and tanky. This puts them at the opposite end of the whole minatar ethos.


Well DUH right back at you, the Gallente and Amarr are both armor tank, so no way you fit nano on them, the Caldari has ONE lowslot, and you fit either DC or BCU. Minmatar is shield tanked with 2 lows for gyro and nano.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-10-15 16:57:32 UTC
What's up with split weapons on Eris?

Rockets + Hybrids

Dude WTF
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-10-15 17:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
I propose replacing the "10% bonus to Interdiction Sphere Launcher rate of fire per level" on each interdictor with "10% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty per level" and then reducing the base rate of fire of the Interdiction Sphere Launcher by 50%.

Using the proposed signature radiuses this would give interdictors bloomed signatures of between 245 (Saber) and 297.5 (Eris) at max skills before shield extenders/rigs and implants/boosters are taken into account. This is about the size of a BC and would allow anti support ships to target and track an interdictor reasonably well while making it hard for a battleship to do so before the interdictor burned away. This would also leave Interceptors the kings of MWD speed tanking due to their larger bonus and greater speed while not rendering the Talwar redundant as an MWD fit frig killer due its smaller base signature and also having a larger bonus in that specific role.

It would also give people a reason to train interdictors V as at the moment the 10% bonus to Interdiction Sphere Launcher rate of fire per level and a small weapon buff just doesn't seem worth the training time on a ship that often carries two bubble launchers and no weapons.

It might be necessary to bring the base signature radiuses of the interdictors a bit closer together so that the ships can be more clearly differentiated on their weapon systems and tank types rather than their raw ability to evade fire in a large fight.

I will leave the debate regarding the split weapon system on the Eris to other posters as in practice very few interdictors use weapons in a fleet fight.

Edit: Fixed my sig bloom math.
Totured Veracity
Galaxy in danger proj.
#93 - 2013-10-15 17:08:36 UTC
Jesus, why make it so unneccessary complicated?

Make flycatcher and heretic more fleet/big gang oriented (resist bonuses + missiles). Giving heretic resist bonus and not giving it to flycatcher makes little sense as for me.
Make sabre and eris more solo/small gang oriented (more damage dealing and more maneuverability compared to heretic and fc).
Make each dictor 8 high slots and 7 gun slots.
In terms of basic agility/mwd speed: sabre > eris > heretic > flycatcher (in the end fc might appear to be more agile because of shield tank).
In terms of damage dealing: eris > sabre > fc/heretic.

And that terrible split weapon system on eris needs to be removed and changed to full hybrid bonus.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#94 - 2013-10-15 17:12:13 UTC
Why this massive range of base signatures? Wouldn't it make more sense to have them all at 75-80, so that the fittings do the rest to balance the speed/sig ratio?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-10-15 17:15:38 UTC
I see Roden Shipyards' design team are still inhaling paint fumes.

Seriously, scrap the split damage nonsense and give Roden ships a theme other than 'kinda crappy and unfocused'

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#96 - 2013-10-15 17:25:07 UTC
Not pleased with the changes. Sig radius issue needs to be fixed badly. HP buff is not nearly useful enough - still flying coffins. Dictors could use bubble immunity same as interceptors, they more than any ship in the game should be built for operating inside bubbles with full functionality.

Split weapon bonus is horrible, making the Eris even worse than it already is. I'm not a fan of missile dessies, so I'll have to say I'm not entirely impressed here that Heretic is remaninng missile too. I was hoping for a Carthum lazor dictor. Or a Creodron drone Eris.

Katrina Oniseki
Totured Veracity
Galaxy in danger proj.
#97 - 2013-10-15 17:27:50 UTC
No need to make dictors bubble immune. That would create a huge imba issue.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-10-15 17:29:34 UTC
SWEET, get rid of hybrid tracking bonus on a gall dessy for a MISSILE EXPLOSION RADIUS BONUS! Now, I don't have to use all my ship bonuses at once, I can just use one and suck a giant c-ock even more!!

Quote from you fozzie (more or less) "we want to move away from split weapons" Can I get a hybrid bonus on the abaddon while we're at it please, seems just as god damn likely as missile bonuses on hybrid ships.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#99 - 2013-10-15 17:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Doed
Planet sig radius.

t1 resists/EHP

ERIS???? REALLY????

6 launcher Flycatcher having effectively 0.25 more launchers when using kin missiles over Heretic(has an exp velocity or radius bonus thingy but.. .yeah.. no.) 1 lowslot..

Make Flycatcher 7/5/2, give them all somewhat decent resists.

Split Eris is bad. fix this please.

0/10, would not fly.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#100 - 2013-10-15 17:31:09 UTC
Bubble immune dictors would be wtfbbqop. Just saying.

Rest of your feedback I'm looking into and taking note of, keep it coming.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie