These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] [Updated] Interdictor Rebalance

First post First post
Author
Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#341 - 2013-10-21 16:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Doctor
Covops cloak is daft. Far too powerful.

Movement while cloaked (not to blops level where its faster cloaked), reduction in sensor recalibration penalty and cloak reactivation wouldnt be terrible. But I'm thinking a maximum of 0% speed nerf and 40% reduction in the other two at most.

I dont think the Sabre or Heretic are in a bad place right now, I've not had a chance to play with the other two. People want more damage and tank but what they really want is an assfrig with a bubble.... which would obsolete assfrigs. Dictors are high risk high reward and shouldnt be much if any better than current because their bubble is SUCH a good and powerful tool. Maybe slightly smaller sig and a small bonus to standard cloaks but not much more.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#342 - 2013-10-21 17:46:47 UTC
Morniee wrote:
Here is my 2 cents

1 Give dictors Cov ops cloak
2 Or give dictors no penalty moving while cloaked.


Both bad ideas.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

S1euth
Perkone
Caldari State
#343 - 2013-10-21 18:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: S1euth
These ships should be balanced around their core function and value they provide; the ability to drop warp disruption bubbles.

If CCP wants to keep the Sabre as king decloaker with its agility, speed and able to fit double bubble and guns, then
Give another dictor a bonus to bubble diameter per level
Give another dictor the ability to launch bubbles more quickly per level
Give another dictor the ability to launch a bubble like a bomb, with travel time and delayed deployment
Give another dictor the ability to make its bubbles last longer per level
Etc...

There are a ton of ways for CCP to "balance" the dictors and further specialize them without crowding out Assault frigates or their destroyer counterparts.
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#344 - 2013-10-21 20:58:06 UTC
David Kir wrote:
And there we go, the Minmatar ships has the worst agility of the lot.
Yup, makes sense.


Well it's not as if they traditionally as a faction rely on great mobility and speed tanking...
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#345 - 2013-10-21 23:39:49 UTC
Witchking Angmar wrote:
David Kir wrote:
And there we go, the Minmatar ships has the worst agility of the lot.
Yup, makes sense.


Well it's not as if they traditionally as a faction rely on great mobility and speed tanking...

That school of reasoning went bye-bye with tiericide, I should know I tried my damnedest to use it when Amarr suddenly got a Vagabond'esque kiting cruiser in the Nomen .. or when drones+missiles suddenly started popping up in the weirdest places.

All races will have all options available to them in as many size categories as feasible. That is seemingly CCP's interpretation of "tiericide" .. racial flavour/bonuses are a distant tertiary consideration, at least until we can knock some sense into the volcano huggers Smile
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#346 - 2013-10-22 07:40:38 UTC
That failure to keep racial identities has been expressed and pointed at with concertn on every thread of the tiercide.

IT represents the grewatest failure of this team on their game balance work. Homogenization means you are ot capable of prober balance and is removeing interestign stuff. ITs a failure..

and the game continues to loose more and more content, flavor... to gain.. NOTHING in return.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Alain Badiou
Gradatim Ferociter
#347 - 2013-10-22 08:35:55 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Capt ****** wrote:
And yet another ...

Buff everything, nerf Minmatar.

Holy crap - its like the end of days for minmatar.

Missile boats ahoy - with no range.

Autocannon nerformama - TEs down the pan.

Worst Caps by a staggering margin.

Command ship loveliness perforated with shotgun.

Lowest DPS marauder FTL (for the loss).





QFT



Completely off topic, but disagree with most of that. Missiles and Minmatar are a good fit (speed with no tracking). TE's were ridiculously OP with respect to autocannons. Also Minnie Marauder is best marauder. Period.

Caps are bad, true.
Alain Badiou
Gradatim Ferociter
#348 - 2013-10-22 08:40:06 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
For Goddess sake, do you all absolutely have to quote the entire wall when adding only a single line or character? Yes it is a good read, but contains nothing that has not already been stated numerous times throughout the thread and years .. kudos to Ganthrithor for gathering most of it up in a rational and legible post though.

Lets get down to it and go through the motions in proper fashion, I'll start with two of the biggest points:
1. What is the purpose of Interdictors and where do/should they fit into current and possible future meta?
My take - Mobile bubbling where statics have yet to go up or not wanted/needed. Act as hard counters to everything sub-cruiser. AoE battle field controllers.
2. What hindrances do they face in performing above mentioned duties?
My take - Too slow. Too big. Too weak (tank and dps both) and flat out uninspired bordering on obsolete.

Ideas for "solutions" (rather random, sorry Cry):
- Add +50% (or similarly insane amount) unstacked resists for 30s immediately after dropping a probe.
- More speed. Lower signature. Better damage+application and more consistent tanking.
- Add Void (continuous drain) and Lockbreaker (as if inside POS bubble) effect probes to be used by Interdictors. Design them around fitting twin launchers to facilitate the use of available probes.
- Let them get double link bonuses (for when they come on-grid).
- Give them a BO'esque cloaked movement bonus albeit even larger.

Bottom line: It is insanity to consider each ship on its own, doubly so with regard to ships meant to collaborate with others. 'Dictors are fleet/gang tools so primary concern should be to make them as indispensable and powerful in that theatre as logistics/eWar.


Or, you could have just quoted Ganthrithor which states many of your points only far more lucidly. :)
Randy Wray
That's Really Witty M8
Shattered Foundations
#349 - 2013-10-22 08:42:18 UTC
Alain Badiou wrote:


Or, you could have just quoted Ganthrithor which states many of your points only far more lucidly. :)

If fozzie doesn't listen to ganthrithor at this point it's gawn be jita riot all over again.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#350 - 2013-10-22 08:59:11 UTC
Alain Badiou wrote:
Or, you could have just quoted Ganthrithor which states many of your points only far more lucidly. :)

Why on Earth would I quote something that does not add anything to the thread/discussion at large, make no sense. The post was merely a 'the story so far' type of thing only it excluded all suggestions made thus far that at least tried to help CCP with a few extra neurons.
Stamping ones feet and holding ones breath can only get one so far Big smile

Besides, the incessant full quotes with a single word or single line are (subject to interpretation) against the forum rules and I am an obedient sheep to authority!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2013-10-22 10:56:51 UTC
Just in the case you did not got the message CCP tiercide team.

NO ONE LIKED! And not many are liking the homogenization and destruciton of racial identities!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Whisperen
Delta vane Corp.
DARKNESS.
#352 - 2013-10-22 12:04:12 UTC
So Fozzie any updates?
Taoist Dragon
The Flying Dead.
#353 - 2013-10-22 22:36:29 UTC
Hmmm another gallboat getting split weapon bonus'

Wasn't one of the big things about Teiricide was removing them from a lot of the minnie ships? So now gall gonna become the new minnie?

And I agree with al ot of the above post about racial flavour being lost. Sure give each race the ability to have fast agile stuff, but come on minnie should have the fastest, most agile stuffs. Amarr/caldari the toughest (armour/shield resists), gall the most dps.

a lot of the minnie ships are getting close to the fattest (mass) this really messes with prop mods etc....seriously?! there is nothing to them being pretty much scaffold with weapons/engines attached.

I don't want 'winmatar' back but at least give them their racial flavour back!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Damian Gene
Bloodtear Industries
#354 - 2013-10-23 05:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Damian Gene
Ganthrithor wrote:


The problem isn't primarily one of tank size or resists: it's dictors' horrible combination of a cruiser-sized sig and cruiser-sized top speeds with frigate tanks. It's really the speed and sigs that need tweaking more than EHP (although a decent-sized EHP increase to keep pace with the tank-creep that's been pervasive among small ships since the tiericide started would also be welcome).

What they'd do if they actually wanted to make dictors into viable combat hulls rather than bubble-and-run mobiles would be to increase EHP by ~20-25% (via raw HP or resists-- I don't think it would matter that much, although at least with resists you could theoretically keep dictors up using remote reps for small gang fights), increase the top speeds across the board such that nano-fit dictors can manage 3-3.5km/s while MWDing, and shrink their base sig radii down to 45-50 instead of the absurd ~75 they're sitting at right now.

Essentially, dictors should really resemble frigates more than they do cruisers: small tanks, high mobility (which helps them mitigate damage AND do their job of grabbing initial tackles / decloaks better) and small sigs.

On a somewhat-related note, I find it hilarious that interceptors-- ships that aren't forced to find themselves inside bubbles constantly and which are the best-equipped ships in the game in terms of their ability to rapidly burn out of bubbles they do find themselves in-- are getting bubble immunity, while dictors-- relatively slow, tankless ships that are forced to drop themselves in the middle of a 20km bubble just to do their jobs-- are stuck in their own bubbles. If anything it should be dictors that are bubble immune (allowing them to not kill themselves by tackling and allowing them to bypass "defensive" bubbles and use their own bubbles on hostile fleets to, you know, do their jobs. But what do I know, I've just been doing small-gang PvP in nullsec since 2007.

Basically these changes do next to nothing to address the fact that the combat abilities of interdictors have become absolutely farcical. Between the speed nerf that destroyed their ability to speed tank damage and the Tiericide-induced power creep that has significantly buffed what seems like every other ship class in the game, the only things that an interdictor can actually fight these days are stealth bombers (assuming they don't have a buddy in another bomber waiting to decloak and bomb you, that is), some scanning frigates (beware ye battle-Helios, however), and some industrial ships. Yeah: some industrial ships: some of those mining barges with 40k ehp and the ability to field drones will probably wreck you. Combat frigates, T1 destroyers, cruisers, some interceptors, all assault frigs, cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships will all completely wreck you if you hang around decloaked long enough to get locked. Our game-designer buddies are acting like they're doing us some kind of big favor by "bringing all other dictors up to the level of the Sabre." Great, except that there's almost nothing that the existing inferior dictors can't fight that a Sabre can. The Sabre is mostly a bubble-and-run machine too, unless you really like losing Sabres...

I'm honestly incredibly disappointed by these changes: while I haven't been enthusiastic about most of the changes of the Tiericide Age, most of them have been things I could work with or around. With interdictors CCP are passing up their best (probably only) opportunity to fix a class that has been seriously underwhelming for years now, and that has only been further emasculated by the tiericide buffs to other small ships. Instead of doing anything to actually make dictors viable and fun ships, CCP are playing it safe by calling the Sabre "good enough" and balancing all the other dictors against it. This is really, obviously not going to do anything to improve the state of dictor-piloting, since anyone with a clue who uses their dictor outside intentionally-suicidal fleet tackling runs has already trained for a Sabre anyway. The only reason people continue to fly Sabres is that dictors are functionally indispensable, and the Sabre is the least-bad of the bunch. That doesn't mean the Sabre (or your new lineup of dictors balanced around it) will be in a good place when your changes go through, and you know it. Shame on you, CCP. I expected more from a team of designers who allegedly spent years playing this game.


The players give feedback, but we've seen less and less feedback from the devs! I miss scrolling down and seeing the blue tags. Can you please give us some more incite to what your thinking? What are your goals? You guys also play, so how will this change the ship class to what you'd like to fly?
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2013-10-23 08:14:16 UTC
only the heretic gets a tanking bonus? why don't any of the other 3 get that?

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2013-10-23 09:25:18 UTC
Yummy Chocolate wrote:
only the heretic gets a tanking bonus? why don't any of the other 3 get that?



bacause now that the heretic is FASTER and more agile than the saber.. it also shoud get the tank bonus so the saber pilots may be 100% doubt free when they reprocess their ships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#357 - 2013-10-23 16:17:01 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Alain Badiou wrote:


Or, you could have just quoted Ganthrithor which states many of your points only far more lucidly. :)

If fozzie doesn't listen to ganthrithor at this point it's gawn be jita riot all over again.


Seconded.

Here is his post:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3750420#post3750420

I took one look at the proposed changes and laughed. I will not bothering to train these ships anytime soon.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#358 - 2013-10-23 16:36:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bubble immune dictors would be wtfbbqop. Just saying.

Rest of your feedback I'm looking into and taking note of, keep it coming.

I see Fozzie posted on the Eve Vegas thread today, hopefully he'll come by and give us something after a week?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#359 - 2013-10-23 18:06:00 UTC
I'm back from Vegas and caught up on the thread. I've been discussing some version 2 stuff with Rise and Ytterbium today.

I expect version two of these changes will go to the CSM within the next day or so then on to you guys asap. Thanks for the feedback so far.

If you decide to shoot the Jita monument in the meantime remember to take a jacket so you don't catch a cold.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2013-10-23 18:56:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If you decide to shoot the Jita monument in the meantime remember to take a jacket so you don't catch a cold.



You need to make that corpse gun so I can shoot my naked body at the monument.