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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1441 - 2013-10-09 13:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
Greetings

Lets keep on topic and not turn this into a personal back and forth between a few parties. All constructive posts welcome.

On On

ISD Flidais Asagiri Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1442 - 2013-10-09 14:15:11 UTC
Deviant X wrote:
Sounds like the impact of virus strength on exploration needs to be tweaked to allow for a more linear progression. If anything, this thread helps underline issues with exploration.

Zero for high-sec
+5 for low-sec
+10 for null-sec.

or update it to be:

+5 for high-sec
+10 for low sec
+15 for null-sec.

That assumes the only limited factor in success is virus strength.

I'd say CCP would also need to adjust sites by skill level too.

level III for high-sec.
level IV for low-sec.
T2 and level V for null-sec.

Allow for progression. Even with the 'ideal' skill set, there should be a chance for failure. SoE probes and modules should also help improve success. Nothing should be 100%.

Agreement or disagreement, this conversation has acted like a mini-Pandora's box. It has let some exploration issues out of the bag for open discussion ... even under the guise of SoE ships. IMO of course.

Good comment, the lack of a progression is the greatest problem, too low in the beginning and you can never make up for it, it is the kiss of death.
An ability to progress, either through skills, upgrades,accessories,rigs, all would be a welcome solution.Forever being forced to be second best would be a disaster for an exploration ship, what is the point of exploring if when you discover something it is of no interest as the ship that can unlock it effectively is 40 jumps away.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1443 - 2013-10-09 14:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
People have frequently reported being able to hack null sites in a T2-bonused ship with a T1 analyzer. I can even do it myself. So let's... analyze... the situation:

A T2-bonused ship gives +10 strength. A T1 Analyzer gives +20 strength. This gives you a total of 30 strength.

Certain parties have said "this is all we are asking for" so we'll use it as the baseline goal, just theoretically.

A T1-bonused ship gives +5 strength. A T2 Analyzer gives +30 strength. This gives 35 strength, which is even higher than the asked-for 30 strength.

Remind me where the problem is, again?

Just for the record, I'm arguing in favor of +5 strength on the SoE ships as a Cheetah pilot who plans on switching to the SoE ships. Trading up for cargo space and actual weapons, yum yum.

...Unless the +5 turns into +10, which will require the weapons being blunted, which basically puts me flying a more expensive and larger-sig version of what I already have.
DrHekki
Confederacy of Independent Forces
#1444 - 2013-10-09 14:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DrHekki
Quote:

What we're shooting for is ships that are themed around exploration and therefor make good platforms for a range of activities including probing, hacking, exploration combat sites, anoms, killing anom runners, spying on people, looking super sexy and generally being kind of awesome.


Difficult to play out this role; give us ships that mean's people don't see them in local for 5/10 minutes and i'll be over the moon with kill anom runners and spying on people.

Idea: Give us a module that needs to be fitted to a ship so that your name doesn't occur in local giving us chance to scan down the carebears. No I have no intention of playing in wormholes, this would be fantastic in regard to proper syping, recon and espyinanoge gaming, BLOPS

Edit: would love the cruiser Stratios to include covert cyno. It be lovely to enter system whip out the cones run a scan and be able to hit warp to ship within seconds rather than the minutes it takes now. It's too easy for people to "get safe" when trying to kill anom runners (in null sec and low sec).
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1445 - 2013-10-09 14:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Deviant X wrote:


+5 for high-sec
+10 for low sec
+15 for null-sec.

That assumes the only limited factor in success is virus strength.

I'd say CCP would also need to adjust sites by skill level too.

level III for high-sec.
level IV for low-sec.
T2 and level V for null-sec.

Allow for progression. Even with the 'ideal' skill set, there should be a chance for failure. SoE probes and modules should also help improve success. Nothing should be 100%.

Agreement or disagreement, this conversation has acted like a mini-Pandora's box. It has let some exploration issues out of the bag for open discussion ... even under the guise of SoE ships. IMO of course.

The problem with this is, in order to keep the (now limited) value of the exploration loot the difficulty of the sites would need increased to compensate for the increased virus strength.

Two things would happen if the site difficulty were increased, it would put fledgling explorers in a position where they may get frustrated and stop exploring. Second it would put players who are wanting a increased virus strength in the same exact place as they are now, wanting greater virus strength due to the site difficulty needed to be increased.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1446 - 2013-10-09 15:04:02 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
People have frequently reported being able to hack null sites in a T2-bonused ship with a T1 analyzer. I can even do it myself. So let's... analyze... the situation:

A T2-bonused ship gives +10 strength. A T1 Analyzer gives +20 strength. This gives you a total of 30 strength.

Certain parties have said "this is all we are asking for" so we'll use it as the baseline goal, just theoretically.

A T1-bonused ship gives +5 strength. A T2 Analyzer gives +30 strength. This gives 35 strength, which is even higher than the asked-for 30 strength.

Remind me where the problem is, again?

Just for the record, I'm arguing in favor of +5 strength on the SoE ships as a Cheetah pilot who plans on switching to the SoE ships. Trading up for cargo space and actual weapons, yum yum.

...Unless the +5 turns into +10, which will require the weapons being blunted, which basically puts me flying a more expensive and larger-sig version of what I already have.



Oh look intelligence.

None of this "must be +10 or useless outside of high sec" when you waste so much time FINDING a site in high sec that exploration itself becomes useless.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1447 - 2013-10-09 15:08:22 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Two things would happen if the site difficulty were increased, it would put fledgling explorers in a position where they may get frustrated and stop exploring. Second it would put players who are wanting a increased virus strength in the same exact place as they are now, wanting greater virus strength due to the site difficulty needed to be increased.



Currently I know a guy that has never paid a sub, with a heron and T1 analyzers and NO CLOAK he did enough sites in null to plex out of his trial. Last time I talked to him he had at least gotten a buzzard and a cov-ops cloak and was complaining that he had too much money.

The entire premise that you need +10 strength is false. Its totally not required.
Sen Starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1448 - 2013-10-09 15:14:00 UTC
I'd like to start by saying thank you for these beautiful and functional new ships. I have long waited for a cruiser to be able to explore in; the frigates are great, though they just lack the staying power for any sort of combat sites that might pop up. As, from what I have seen from the Sister's interests, they seem to be intrigued by both sleepers and Rogue drones, I was wondering if one possibility might be to work in a mechanic such as the one present in the Zephyr. Being able to explore in wormholes, and investigate the workings behind the Sleepers and the "thought" processes of rogue drones would be beneficial to both capsuleers and Sisters alike. I, for one, would love to delve further into what makes both tick, even just for fluff reasons, let alone salvage.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1449 - 2013-10-09 15:26:52 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Two things would happen if the site difficulty were increased, it would put fledgling explorers in a position where they may get frustrated and stop exploring. Second it would put players who are wanting a increased virus strength in the same exact place as they are now, wanting greater virus strength due to the site difficulty needed to be increased.



Currently I know a guy that has never paid a sub, with a heron and T1 analyzers and NO CLOAK he did enough sites in null to plex out of his trial. Last time I talked to him he had at least gotten a buzzard and a cov-ops cloak and was complaining that he had too much money.

The entire premise that you need +10 strength is false. Its totally not required.

I understand the sites are not too difficult if you know what you are doing. My point was to artificially create boundaries for virus strength increases, the sites would need to be proportionally difficult which would create more problems than it would solve.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1450 - 2013-10-09 15:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
People have frequently reported being able to hack null sites in a T2-bonused ship with a T1 analyzer. I can even do it myself. So let's... analyze... the situation:

A T2-bonused ship gives +10 strength. A T1 Analyzer gives +20 strength. This gives you a total of 30 strength.

Certain parties have said "this is all we are asking for" so we'll use it as the baseline goal, just theoretically.

A T1-bonused ship gives +5 strength. A T2 Analyzer gives +30 strength. This gives 35 strength, which is even higher than the asked-for 30 strength.

Remind me where the problem is, again?

Just for the record, I'm arguing in favor of +5 strength on the SoE ships as a Cheetah pilot who plans on switching to the SoE ships. Trading up for cargo space and actual weapons, yum yum.

...Unless the +5 turns into +10, which will require the weapons being blunted, which basically puts me flying a more expensive and larger-sig version of what I already have.


Dear epicurus ataraxia

I would like to hear your thoughts, as the resident (very)vocal minority, on this well thought out post as it neatly mirrors my own feelings on the matter. If you are unable to give me a more convincing argument than 'I don't want to train 10 days for hacking V' then I feel that I will (un)fortunately not be able to consider anything you say regarding this or indeed any future matters with any level of seriousness.

Kind Regards

CCP: I am quite literally moist (from spilling my cup of coffee) at not only how absolutely gorgeous these ships are but also how comparatively well balanced they seem to be right from the outset. These additions and the marauder changes in particular has proven to me that your initial instincts on ship balancing is very good (nothing is ever perfect the first time) and that you should absolutely not give in to knee jerk reactions by vocal parties on the forums as was clearly shown by the resulting outburst from the 2nd iteration of the marauders. Stick to your guns!

Please keep up the good work. I have a feeling these SOE ships as is now will be extremely popular if the isk price on them is right and will generate tons of interesting player generated content. I literally can't wait for the expansion! Big smile

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1451 - 2013-10-09 15:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
People have frequently reported being able to hack null sites in a T2-bonused ship with a T1 analyzer. I can even do it myself. So let's... analyze... the situation:

A T2-bonused ship gives +10 strength. A T1 Analyzer gives +20 strength. This gives you a total of 30 strength.

Certain parties have said "this is all we are asking for" so we'll use it as the baseline goal, just theoretically.

A T1-bonused ship gives +5 strength. A T2 Analyzer gives +30 strength. This gives 35 strength, which is even higher than the asked-for 30 strength.

Remind me where the problem is, again?

Just for the record, I'm arguing in favor of +5 strength on the SoE ships as a Cheetah pilot who plans on switching to the SoE ships. Trading up for cargo space and actual weapons, yum yum.

...Unless the +5 turns into +10, which will require the weapons being blunted, which basically puts me flying a more expensive and larger-sig version of what I already have.

I really do not want to keep repeating this,it has been specified and discussed 100 times now it feels, I have made suggestion after suggestion.the mods have asked that we do not keep going round and round, and if everything we write is ignored and arguments cherry picked there is no point going round and round. It is tiring and fills the thread.
I have always said that there is no issue with any level of training, It is not an issue that these ships can be maxed out to perform in null.


To precis the argument why on earth should i fly an exploration ship at high cost and high skill training requirements, when the cheap covert ops is in the hangar. I would just use that, IT WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER AT EXPLORING THAN AN EXPLORATION SHIP.and these ships are only worth using for PvP and Pve, No matter how an explorer skills, no matter what he fits, they are explorers in name only, just rename the covert ops to explorer paint it white and be done with the whole thing.



We are asking for + 10 virus strength and providing reasons and suggestions to help.you do not want us to have it, there are 73 pages of discussion and not just from me no argument or discussion will change your position.

My patience is exhausted, congratulations you have successfully as is usually the case shouted out another point of view I tried to stand up to you on behalf of the ones who had another viewpoint but realise the futility now enjoy your victory, I truly hope you get EXACTLY what you deserve.These ships as you wish them will be another gnosis, and even if given away free will sit nice and shiny in a hanger or hisec, because that was so successful as an exploration ship too. Mmm wonder what was missing.
Hopefully the devs will realise that if they only cater to a very very shouty audience they will get really large numbers of those loud agressive narrow minded people who live in the real world as customers. No wait that is not working......
There were others who wished to continue to play this game, hoping that one day it would be more than pew pew but I guess the forums is not the place to discuss things.
End

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1452 - 2013-10-09 16:16:01 UTC
J ust wanna know when these beauties are going to be on sisi, and what if any chances have been made? And where is my BS verison????
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1453 - 2013-10-09 16:20:59 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Two things would happen if the site difficulty were increased, it would put fledgling explorers in a position where they may get frustrated and stop exploring. Second it would put players who are wanting a increased virus strength in the same exact place as they are now, wanting greater virus strength due to the site difficulty needed to be increased.



Currently I know a guy that has never paid a sub, with a heron and T1 analyzers and NO CLOAK he did enough sites in null to plex out of his trial. Last time I talked to him he had at least gotten a buzzard and a cov-ops cloak and was complaining that he had too much money.

The entire premise that you need +10 strength is false. Its totally not required.

I understand the sites are not too difficult if you know what you are doing. My point was to artificially create boundaries for virus strength increases, the sites would need to be proportionally difficult which would create more problems than it would solve.



There are NO boundries, you can do the sites with a T1 ship and T1 gear.
MiMozO
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1454 - 2013-10-09 16:21:14 UTC
"We decided to give some well rounded explorer ships to the community..." or how it was on the announce?
Exploration ships from THE exploration faction, which are worse at exploration than T2 covert ops, and T3 strategic cruisers... That's a logic...
T3 equivalent for poor?
Frigate has terrible layout. Cruiser is better, but won't be used in exploration anyway. Coverts and T3 are plain better.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1455 - 2013-10-09 16:24:44 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

To precis the argument why on earth should i fly an exploration ship at high cost and high skill training requirements, when the cheap covert ops is in the hangar. I would just use that, IT WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER AT EXPLORING THAN AN EXPLORATION SHIP.and these ships are only worth using for PvP and Pve, No matter how an explorer skills, no matter what he fits, they are explorers in name only, just rename the covert ops to explorer paint it white and be done with the whole thing.




Again, false premise. The cargo bay alone makes it more worth while. More cargo=more money I live in null and the cargo hold is the big restriction.

Not the stupid virus stregth.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1456 - 2013-10-09 16:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


Two things would happen if the site difficulty were increased, it would put fledgling explorers in a position where they may get frustrated and stop exploring. Second it would put players who are wanting a increased virus strength in the same exact place as they are now, wanting greater virus strength due to the site difficulty needed to be increased.



Currently I know a guy that has never paid a sub, with a heron and T1 analyzers and NO CLOAK he did enough sites in null to plex out of his trial. Last time I talked to him he had at least gotten a buzzard and a cov-ops cloak and was complaining that he had too much money.

The entire premise that you need +10 strength is false. Its totally not required.

I understand the sites are not too difficult if you know what you are doing. My point was to artificially create boundaries for virus strength increases, the sites would need to be proportionally difficult which would create more problems than it would solve.



There are NO boundries, you can do the sites with a T1 ship and T1 gear.

I have done and will post a video of my recent null sec site being done with a rookie ship an a T1 analyzer. You do not need to convince me that the ship does not need a +10 bonus, hell I could get by with no bonus but for the sake of exploration a +5 suits the ship nicely.

Read this post for context as to my initial post. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3715786#post3715786

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1457 - 2013-10-09 16:33:02 UTC
MiMozO wrote:
"We decided to give some well rounded explorer ships to the community..." or how it was on the announce?
Exploration ships from THE exploration faction, which are worse at exploration than T2 covert ops, and T3 strategic cruisers... That's a logic...
T3 equivalent for poor?
Frigate has terrible layout. Cruiser is better, but won't be used in exploration anyway. Coverts and T3 are plain better.

True but no point posting you will just get shouted out.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1458 - 2013-10-09 16:35:48 UTC
There are two versions of exploration. One is exploration hacking. The other is exploration combat.

Odyssey introduced and defined exploration hacking. Hacking is about avoiding combat and escaping PVP. You only care about opening cans, so virus strength and cohesion are all that matter - you'll never want something other than a T2 cov ops frigate.

But "can opener" exploration misses combat exploration. You cannot use a combat site you find with your hacking exploration ship. It has no weapons. These ships are clearly intended to let you do combat sites you find with exploration. That's why they have minimal can opening bonuses. They aren't can opening ships. They are combat site ships. That they have a bonus to virus strength at all is probably more to tip off players than actually empower can opening.

Will they beat T3 ships? No. T3s aren't intended to be comparable - a T3 is a specialized, "super" tool. It is end game content. It requires the highest investment in skills and isk. This is an entry point to doing combat sites without having to qualify for T3.
MiMozO
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1459 - 2013-10-09 16:48:03 UTC
I don't really care for numbers, I'm surprised with logic here. Sisters of EVE - charity/exploration/peacemaker organisation, which excels at scanning technology, has introduced a ship which is worse at scanning than some combat oriented ships, worse at hacking/archaeology than other ships, and has better fighting capabilities than some combat oriented ships.
Is it me, or something is wrong here? How it is supposed to be explained form the lore, and simple logic point o view?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1460 - 2013-10-09 16:55:02 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
There are two versions of exploration. One is exploration hacking. The other is exploration combat.

Both of these ships will perform well at general exploration, for specific types of exploration there are better ships out there.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.