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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

First post First post First post
Author
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1481 - 2013-10-09 17:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Sen Starfire wrote:
I agree; the point should be for these ships that they have a unique Sister-related mechanic, rather than just a different mix of standard mechanics. With the arguments going on concerning where they fit in the exploration world, better than frigs, worse than T3s and covops, though with different bonuses... That should not be the point. They should be unique, different than just a conglomeration of other race's specialties; or, at least, those features should not be the main aspect.

Your idea intrigues me and I am interested to hear further details on this matter. Do you have any examples you would like to suggest?

Wyndeigo wrote:
The Astero, having only 2 high slots, should also have a drone damage bonus added along with the drone hp bonus.

I believe the point of not having a drone damage bonus was to keep its drone DPS from overpowering other frigates. Except for the Tristan and the Ishkur, I can't actually think of any frigates that can field a full flight of light drones.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1482 - 2013-10-09 17:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sen Starfire wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sen Starfire wrote:
After having seen all the comments concerning exploration, I reiterate my previous point; what if, instead of having weapon bonuses, there was a mechanic in place like the Zephyr, so that Sleepers ignore the ship unless it engages them? That would be most useful in Wormhole exploration, which is currently the realm of either T3 cruisers or fleets. Maybe even, considering their humanitarian nature, a bonus to remote armor repair? Just a couple thoughts.

Sleeper idea is nice, but a middle ground making them hate drones less so drones have some utility and are not thrown at them like chaff


I agree; the point should be for these ships that they have a unique Sister-related mechanic, rather than just a different mix of standard mechanics. With the arguments going on concerning where they fit in the exploration world, better than frigs, worse than T3s and covops, though with different bonuses... That should not be the point. They should be unique, different than just a conglomeration of other race's specialties; or, at least, those features should not be the main aspect.

Nice to have fresh ideas.keep them coming.
I like your idea where they can sneak past sleepers to do relic and data sites to get the goodies, not a free win though , they wake up when you grab it possibly, and you have to get out quick fighting as you go? Looting the wrecks while staying alive.
Could Be fun.

I would hope if you are going to be fighting the sleepers off though the ship would be able to loot the site effectively, loot spew here would really not help if up to your armpits in angry sleepers.

Much prefer this to kill sleepers then do site method.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1483 - 2013-10-09 18:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
The Capture quality is not the best, but it gets the job done.
For all those who feel +10 virus strength is necessary to do null sec hacking sites.
http://youtu.be/KvmKUw2wW10

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sen Starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1484 - 2013-10-09 18:17:20 UTC
I was thinking something along these lines:
Astero:
Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 35% Increased Scan Probe strength
Role Bonus: +10 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if fired upon
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances


Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Armor repair amount

Stratios:

Role Bonus: 45% increase Scan Probe Strength
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if approached within 10km

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and(?) damage
10% bonus to Drone Remote Armor Repair amount


This way, I was thinking them more of a shepherd an their flock; the smaller frigates would be responsible for going in, hacking sites, and the Cruiser would watch over them, and repair them as needed. This is just a thought.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1485 - 2013-10-09 18:17:38 UTC
Giving the SOE frigate 10+ virus strength no matter HOW you try and rationalize it will invalidate every other cov ops ship. That is bad for the gameplay and gameplay is always more important than lore. Dare to tell me differently.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1486 - 2013-10-09 18:20:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
For all those who feel +10 is necessary to do null sec hacking sites.


It's not necessary. It's what defines "good" - a T2 module and +10 means a standard 80 cohesion blocking node is 2 clicks. At +5 it is 3 clicks. That's 2 cohesion hits instead of 1. Of course, you can luck your way through the hacking game sometimes with no blocking nodes And failing the game sometimes is intended even at the best strength and cohesion when doing the hardest content.

It's only natural for people to want +10 on an exploration ship. It isn't useful to show how you could possibly make do with less - people don't want to make do. They want to excel.

It is more useful to say "If I put +10 on this, why would anyone fly a T2 cov ops?" This has +5 to keep the +10 on the other ships relevant. +5 is the "T1" version of hacking abilities. These ships are T1 ships. So, they get the T1 bonus. If they get the T2 bonus, what will you give the T2 ships? If someone gets +15, will that require changes to the hacking game? If you change the hacking game, will you just be back here on the forums insisting that +10 is not good enough?
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1487 - 2013-10-09 18:26:20 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
For all those who feel +10 is necessary to do null sec hacking sites.


It's not necessary.

Several posts in this thread mention that +10 is required to do null hacking sites.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1488 - 2013-10-09 18:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sen Starfire wrote:
I was thinking something along these lines:
Astero:
Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 35% Increased Scan Probe strength
Role Bonus: +10 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if fired upon
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances


Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Armor repair amount

Stratios:

Role Bonus: 45% increase Scan Probe Strength
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if approached within 10km

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and(?) damage
10% bonus to Drone Remote Armor Repair amount


This way, I was thinking them more of a shepherd an their flock; the smaller frigates would be responsible for going in, hacking sites, and the Cruiser would watch over them, and repair them as needed. This is just a thought.


I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but no matter how good the idea, some one will immidiately post
no good never put + 10
Don't want it bad idea,Covert ops will diiiiiiie!!!
Don't let the wolfpack stop you from coming up with fresh ideas though.

Edit ooops beaten to it :)

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1489 - 2013-10-09 18:35:09 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Several posts in this thread mention that +10 is required to do null hacking sites.


What does "required" mean? It means "I will fail at it more than I am happy with if I don't have it". The only really required thing is an analyzer... and a ship to mount it on.

Understanding why people are asking for +10 helps engage the conversation in a productive manner. Or you could just keep shouting past one another to no point.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1490 - 2013-10-09 18:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Fa Xian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Several posts in this thread mention that +10 is required to do null hacking sites.


What does "required" mean? It means "I will fail at it more than I am happy with if I don't have it". The only really required thing is an analyzer... and a ship to mount it on.

Understanding why people are asking for +10 helps engage the conversation in a productive manner. Or you could just keep shouting past one another to no point.


Just get used to the wolf pack, nothing you can do about it try not to let it get you wound up.
I just got too tired, CCP are the ones who will make the decision, the rest now is just noise i'm afraid, nothing we say is going to change anyones mind.
Please don't let it stop you putting up good ideas, we all welcome them (well not all) with luck CCP may incorporate them.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries
#1491 - 2013-10-09 18:45:58 UTC
This is a little off topic, but I really love these SoE designs and would like to see an SoE T3 similar to the racial T3s. I would like that a lot.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1492 - 2013-10-09 18:48:11 UTC
Orion Wolff wrote:
This is a little off topic, but I really love these SoE designs and would like to see an SoE T3 similar to the racial T3s. I would like that a lot.

Yes the art department has done an amazing job.Quite stunning, they are doing some great work.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1493 - 2013-10-09 18:52:54 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Several posts in this thread mention that +10 is required to do null hacking sites.


What does "required" mean? It means "I will fail at it more than I am happy with if I don't have it". The only really required thing is an analyzer... and a ship to mount it on.

Understanding why people are asking for +10 helps engage the conversation in a productive manner. Or you could just keep shouting past one another to no point.

I was understanding 40+ pages ago, the same demand, as it would be, has been constantly made despite the reasons why it should remain at +5.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1494 - 2013-10-09 18:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Fa Xian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Several posts in this thread mention that +10 is required to do null hacking sites.


What does "required" mean? It means "I will fail at it more than I am happy with if I don't have it". The only really required thing is an analyzer... and a ship to mount it on.

Understanding why people are asking for +10 helps engage the conversation in a productive manner. Or you could just keep shouting past one another to no point.

I was understanding 40+ pages ago, the same demand, as it would be, has been constantly made despite the reasons why it should remain at +5.

Could it possibly be that all these people do not agree with you? "Nah couldn't be they must be just deluded, i'll tell them some more."

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Sen Starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1495 - 2013-10-09 18:57:15 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sen Starfire wrote:
I was thinking something along these lines:
Astero:
Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 35% Increased Scan Probe strength
Role Bonus: +10 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if fired upon
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances


Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Armor repair amount

Stratios:

Role Bonus: 45% increase Scan Probe Strength
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if approached within 10km

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and(?) damage
10% bonus to Drone Remote Armor Repair amount


This way, I was thinking them more of a shepherd an their flock; the smaller frigates would be responsible for going in, hacking sites, and the Cruiser would watch over them, and repair them as needed. This is just a thought.


I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but no matter how good the idea, some one will immidiately post
no good never put + 10
Don't want it bad idea,Covert ops will diiiiiiie!!!
Don't let the wolfpack stop you from coming up with fresh ideas though.

Edit ooops beaten to it :)


That's the exact reason I was quite hesitant about putting that in in the first place; one option would be to put it as 7.5, to give the covops just that much of an edge to it. Another bit of food for thought would be to think of it not as a replacement to the covops line, but an addition; to now have 5 different covops explorers, rather than just four. It is far from necessary to have a +10, most assuredly; again, that one fact should not be the defining factor of the entire ship.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1496 - 2013-10-09 19:05:04 UTC
Sen Starfire wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sen Starfire wrote:
I was thinking something along these lines:
Astero:
Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 35% Increased Scan Probe strength
Role Bonus: +10 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if fired upon
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances


Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Armor repair amount

Stratios:

Role Bonus: 45% increase Scan Probe Strength
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers
Role Bonus: Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices
Role Bonus: Seekers and Rogue Drones will only engage if approached within 10km

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resistances
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and(?) damage
10% bonus to Drone Remote Armor Repair amount


This way, I was thinking them more of a shepherd an their flock; the smaller frigates would be responsible for going in, hacking sites, and the Cruiser would watch over them, and repair them as needed. This is just a thought.


I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but no matter how good the idea, some one will immidiately post
no good never put + 10
Don't want it bad idea,Covert ops will diiiiiiie!!!
Don't let the wolfpack stop you from coming up with fresh ideas though.

Edit ooops beaten to it :)


That's the exact reason I was quite hesitant about putting that in in the first place; one option would be to put it as 7.5, to give the covops just that much of an edge to it. Another bit of food for thought would be to think of it not as a replacement to the covops line, but an addition; to now have 5 different covops explorers, rather than just four. It is far from necessary to have a +10, most assuredly; again, that one fact should not be the defining factor of the entire ship.


Unfortunately Owing to the nature of the mini game it works in bumps of 5 5,7,10 is actually 5 and 10.
You have a nice way of looking at things freshly, this is good, Really it is probably best to stay away from the 5-10% virus strength argument, it is going nowhere and just derails a post that contains other good ideas,It gets pounced on and lost in the mahem.
CCP will decide that anyway, and they have already promised to look at it so they have not cast things in stone no matter what some say.

Keep the ideas coming.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Sen Starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1497 - 2013-10-09 19:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sen Starfire
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Unfortunately Owing to the nature of the mini game it works in bumps of 5 5,7,10 is actually 5 and 10.
You have a nice way of looking at things freshly, this is good, Really it is probably best to stay away from the 5-10% virus strength argument, it is going nowhere and just derails a post that contains other good ideas,It gets pounced on and lost in the mahem.
CCP will decide that anyway, and they have already promised to look at it so they have not cast things in stone no matter what some say.

Keep the ideas coming.


That is a very good point; thanks for letting me know. What about coming at hacking from an entirely different angle; what if, instead of having a +5 or a +10, it has neither; instead, every four completed nodes, you "regenerate" 5 virus coherency? That might fit a lot more in the lines of the Sister's ideologies, and hopefully quell the argument with the +5/+10 virus strength, as well as provide an entirely new, and hopefully interesting, mechanic.

One other option might be the ability for the cruiser to assist in hacking; if they lock on to the hacking ship and use the respective analyzer on it, the regen rate increases from once every 4 turns, to once every two turns?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1498 - 2013-10-09 19:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sen Starfire wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Unfortunately Owing to the nature of the mini game it works in bumps of 5 5,7,10 is actually 5 and 10.
You have a nice way of looking at things freshly, this is good, Really it is probably best to stay away from the 5-10% virus strength argument, it is going nowhere and just derails a post that contains other good ideas,It gets pounced on and lost in the mahem.
CCP will decide that anyway, and they have already promised to look at it so they have not cast things in stone no matter what some say.

Keep the ideas coming.


That is a very good point; thanks for letting me know. What about coming at hacking from an entirely different angle; what if, instead of having a +5 or a +10, it has neither; instead, every four completed nodes, you "regenerate" 5 virus coherency? That might fit a lot more in the lines of the Sister's ideologies, and hopefully quell the argument with the +5/+10 virus strength, as well as provide an entirely new, and hopefully interesting, mechanic.

One other option might be the ability for the cruiser to assist in hacking; if they lock on to the hacking ship and use the respective analyzer on it, the regen rate increases from once every 4 turns, to once every two turns?


Ok nothing wrong with the idea of both of those, god knows the minigame needs some love, I don't think Ccp ever intended it to be static and unimproved forever.
Just to clarify the way the game works is that strength killes the node, coherency defends against their attack after a failed attack if they still live. So if for example the node has a 30 defence and 40 attack (to keep it simple) you attack it with 30 strength (10 from ship plus 20 from analyzer the node dies, you move on to hunt the core.
If however you have 25 (5 from ship and 20 from analyser) You reduce it to 5 strength but you get hit with 40.
So it's not just 5 it is live or die.
Binary live or die it is that simple. Like nothing else in the game regarding a bonus.
Just best to keep the ship side bonuses out of the equation and suggest it as an improvement to the minigame,

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Sen Starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1499 - 2013-10-09 19:53:55 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Ok nothing wrong with the idea of both of those, god knows the minigame needs some love, I don't think Ccp ever intended it to be static and unimproved forever.
Just to clarify the way the game works is that strength killes the node, coherency defends against their attack after a failed attack if they still live. So if for example the node has a 30 defence and 40 attack (to keep it simple) you attack it with 30 strength (10 from ship plus 20 from analyzer the node dies, you move on to hunt the core.
If however you have 25 (5 from ship and 20 from analyser) You reduce it to 5 strength but you get hit with 40.
So it's not just 5 it is live or die.
Binary live or die it is that simple. Like nothing else in the game regarding a bonus.
Just best to keep the ship side bonuses out of the equation and suggest it as an improvement to the minigame,
Probably too late probably been pounced on by now the pack are probably tearing at their freshly blooded bunny rabbit.


My thoughts exactly; unlike adding strength, it would repair the coherency, much like the repair programs do currently when you uncover them on nodes. Just wanting to clarify how that idea might work, though it is far from perfect. Another possible idea would be some sort of way to have both ships work together, in the vein of the hacking support idea. It would be good to see a unique theme amongst such ships designed by the Sisterhood, aside from just aesthetics.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1500 - 2013-10-09 20:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
OK lets look at the numbers shall we? Numbers afterall, dont lie :)

I use a cheetah for nullsec exploration. I used to only have lv4 hacking with t1 module and a single analizer rig. I'd say I was missing around 1 or two out of every 30 MAINFRAMES (these are the nullsec cans). I've never missed a com tower (low sec can) or the highsec one, not even once. But that's neither here nor there. I don't make a living off of nullsec exploration, just do it as a hobby when our WH ends up somewhere nice and quiet.

Cheetah
Minmi: 5% to projectile ROF and 10% OPTIMAL) (Dont have guns fitted)
No second bonus

Astero (SOE Frig)
Gallente: 20% bonus to drone hitpoints PER LEVEL ON A FULL FLIGHT OF DONES
Amarr: 4% bonus to Armor Resists

Huh well we can see who wins here. That ship is legit pvp and pve combat ready. Bet you it can do 2/10s without breaking a sweat.

Cheetah
Role bonus: +10 virus
Covert ops skill: 20% reduced CPU need for Cloaking Devices per level
Covert ops skill: 10% increase to scan strength of probes per level
Covert ops skill: 10% reduction to survey probe flight time per level (irrelevant to this discussion)

Astero (SOE Frig)
Role bonus: +5 virus (boo hiss)
Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requirement for cloaks
Role bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength

Ok so that's the 'role' bonus. Now, for having to train an entire extra skill (and having to train it to 4 at LEAST to beat Astero) I get 11.5% extra scan strength AT V! This can be made up by using cheap sister probes and a T2 launcher without having to train the skill to V (covops cloak requires IV) and is as a whole for decently skilled players irrelevant. Also the +5 virus strength that can be made up for if you are using T1s atm by training for T2s AND you get +5 extra that way. Cheetah edges out a slim victory here by virtue of it being it's T2 SPECIALITY.

Oh and I need cov ops 5 or the cloak nukes my cpu, haha :/

Cheetah
Defense (shields/armor/hull): 281 / 387 / 528
Fittings: 15 PWG, 275 CPU
Capacitor (amount) : 187.5
Targeting (range/Res/targets): 37km / 450 / 6
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Mobility (velocity/agility/mass/align): 381 / 3.77 / 1 430 000 / ?
Cargo Capacity: 200
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L

Astero (SOE Frig)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 540 / 600 / 600
Fittings: 32 PWG, 170 CPU
Capacitor (amount) : 430
Targeting (range/Res/targets): 37km / 620 / 6
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Mobility (velocity/agility/mass/align): 312 / 2.87 / 975 000 / 3.88s
Cargo Capacity: 210
Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 4L


Right so, again better in nearly every single way that I can see. Cheetah has a bit more speed though it wont save it. Every single other stat the Astero is better at it.

Now, Tell me again how the ONLY advantage it has over the SOE ship should be removed? Or should cov ops ships be resigned to the same pile the Primatae should be in? Haven't heard of that ship? Neither did I until a corp mate 2 days ago bought one for PI. Joke is the new PI indy does it better.

I'm all ears buddy.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3