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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

First post First post First post
Author
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1401 - 2013-10-09 00:04:21 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


As the Gallente-Amarr hybrid ship, the main theme is armor and drones. The energy weapon bonus is meant to encourage laser use by partially nullifying their biggest drawback without making lasers feel compulsory as opposed to other weapons.


If that is the case why can't missile launchers be fitted? Amarr use missiles.


near unbonused HAMs and heavies...pass.


RLMLs on it would be insane, even unbonused RLMs can still slaughter frigs and you've got heavy drones for everything else.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1402 - 2013-10-09 00:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Xequecal wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


As the Gallente-Amarr hybrid ship, the main theme is armor and drones. The energy weapon bonus is meant to encourage laser use by partially nullifying their biggest drawback without making lasers feel compulsory as opposed to other weapons.


If that is the case why can't missile launchers be fitted? Amarr use missiles.


near unbonused HAMs and heavies...pass.


RLMLs on it would be insane, even unbonused RLMs can still slaughter frigs and you've got heavy drones for everything else.

With 4 launchers you are looking at 97 DPS with fury light missiles, out to 30km.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#1403 - 2013-10-09 00:14:11 UTC
What kind of tank are people coming up with on the Stratios? I can't seem to get much more than ~50k EHP on it without going for a ton of bling, and with only 50k EHP this won't be replacing cloaky T3s for solo WH hunting anytime soon. As part of a logi-backed fleet, these things could definitely be brutal, but on their own it seems to me that they wouldn't be able to withstand the DPS of the average site runner before they fall over.

Seems to me that it needs to lose a mid and gain a low. What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1404 - 2013-10-09 00:16:09 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?

In my opinion,
Cargo Scanner II
Relic Analyzer II
Data Analyzer II
10mn Microwarpdrive II/10mn Afterburner II
Medium Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 200)

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1405 - 2013-10-09 00:34:21 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
What kind of tank are people coming up with on the Stratios? I can't seem to get much more than ~50k EHP on it without going for a ton of bling, and with only 50k EHP this won't be replacing cloaky T3s for solo WH hunting anytime soon. As part of a logi-backed fleet, these things could definitely be brutal, but on their own it seems to me that they wouldn't be able to withstand the DPS of the average site runner before they fall over.

Seems to me that it needs to lose a mid and gain a low. What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?

Yes, the Stratios has a weak tank, but that isn't the biggest problem with these ships: they have horrific CPU issues. They need at least 100tf more CPU in order to be remotely comparable to a covops in actual functionality, especially the frigate. As it stands, good luck shoehorning an expanded probe launcher onto one!
Elisk Skyforge
Caldari Provisions
#1406 - 2013-10-09 01:18:15 UTC
These ships look a lot like Caldari/Minmatar ships, shouldnt they be shield tanked at least? I mean they dont have that bulky hull of the Gall/Amarr.
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1407 - 2013-10-09 01:19:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?

In my opinion,
Cargo Scanner II
Relic Analyzer II
Data Analyzer II
10mn Microwarpdrive II/10mn Afterburner II
Medium Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 200)



Carry a Depot with you and when you find a site. set up depot and refit ship, then put depot away.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1408 - 2013-10-09 01:21:43 UTC
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?

In my opinion,
Cargo Scanner II
Relic Analyzer II
Data Analyzer II
10mn Microwarpdrive II/10mn Afterburner II
Medium Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 200)



Carry a Depot with you and when you find a site. set up depot and refit ship, then put depot away.

That is not a possible conclusion to draw at this point as we know nothing about the Deopt.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1409 - 2013-10-09 01:28:58 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
What kind of tank are people coming up with on the Stratios? I can't seem to get much more than ~50k EHP on it without going for a ton of bling, and with only 50k EHP this won't be replacing cloaky T3s for solo WH hunting anytime soon. As part of a logi-backed fleet, these things could definitely be brutal, but on their own it seems to me that they wouldn't be able to withstand the DPS of the average site runner before they fall over.

Seems to me that it needs to lose a mid and gain a low. What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?

Yes, the Stratios has a weak tank, but that isn't the biggest problem with these ships: they have horrific CPU issues. They need at least 100tf more CPU in order to be remotely comparable to a covops in actual functionality, especially the frigate. As it stands, good luck shoehorning an expanded probe launcher onto one!

They seem aimed at the PvE side of exploration, thus a core probe launcher is sufficient.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1410 - 2013-10-09 04:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

There is no way that these ships can currently be upgraded to match a covert ops.


You're quite correct. There is no way to upgrade these ships to completely obsolete a Covert Ops ship at its specialized role, nor should there be. These are neither CovOps ships nor T3s and they should not be equal to or better than them at what they do.

I don't know if you've been paying attention to any of the Tiericide threads or any of the T2 Rebalancing threads, but a common and core theme amongst them is that a ship should not step on the proverbial toes of any other ship unless it's absolutely necessary and in no cases should one ship ever completely obsolete any other ships, no matter what.

Please don't say "Pilgrim", as the ship hasn't been rebalanced yet and will likely see a redesign given the direction other ships have gone.

As they stand, these SoE ships are dangerously close to obsoleting Covops, Recons, AFs and HACs - and their do-it-all bonuses combined with no SP loss on ship destruction stands to make them capable of obsoleting T3s for exploration as well. The only things holding them back are their lack of a CPU bonus for expanded launchers, the cruiser's lack of a cloak CPU bonus, the lack of a sensor recalibration bonus and the +5 virus strength instead of +10. All very good pre-nerfs that need to remain firmly in place no matter what.

I'll lay it out for you very carefully:

T2 ships are given bonuses that specialize them to be powerful in their role and significantly less useful outside of it.

Covops ships are T2 - They have very powerful probing and analyzing bonuses but they cannot engage in any meaningful combat.

Recon ships are T2 - They have very powerful probing bonuses (some even have covert cloaks) as well as some bonuses to EWAR. Half of them have role bonuses toward cynos. They do not have analyzing bonuses and their combat bonuses are not as strong as a HAC.

AFs and HACs are both T2 - They have combat bonuses. They have tank bonuses. They have role bonuses towards mobility in battle. They pay for this by having no probing bonuses, no analyzing bonuses and no cloaks.

T3s - These are difficult to comment on, but not too difficult. When you bonus your T3 for exploration, you get a powerful bonus to probing and analyzing but your lock range, lock time and resistance to jamming are all worse than if you'd chosen a more combat-focused set of bonuses. When you choose a covops capability for your T3, you do so at the expense of damage output; covops subsystems have abysmal DPS compared to the others. The only thing a T3 has that other ships cannot match, the nullifier, comes at the cost of a lowslot. A covops-nullified T3 has extreme power but also extreme drawbacks.

This is the way it works and the way it should be.

Let's stop trying to return T2 ships to worthlessness after Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium have been spending so much time to make them useful:

  • No +10 strength that you don't even need in order to hack in null.
  • No stepping on every other ship's toes just because these are pirate ships.
  • No obsoleting cheaper ships just because they're cheaper.


These SoE ships are bonused for everything; they should pay for it by never being as good at any one thing as a corresponding T2 ship. No T2-level bonuses on a T1-level ship.

Period.
Visva Mitra
Doomheim
#1411 - 2013-10-09 05:32:07 UTC
This ship only for PVP , not for PVE, that see everyone who want see that ...

First: not compatibe tanking system. Pve need tanking longer time without logist, shield tanking possible passive tank, armor , not! shield have resharge rate , armor, not. For armor effective tanking need logist, for that reason can't be use as pve ship.
In one post writed by CCP agent i see comment "armor repairing bonus not usable", not usable because, MOST armor tanked ships are for pvp not for pve. Why peaoples not like aktive tank armor? Not like because too problematic to do that ...

Second: Using drones. In one post writed by CCP agent i see comment "900DPS is more than enough", YES this dps more than enough, BUT, YOU CAN't lounch the large drones first time! smaller NPC's eliminate them fast, same is and with medium drones. Need start with smaller drones(that not working best too, HI/LOW and NULL sec-for WH system agro to drones crazy, and lost theys fast). If use sentry drones, that may possible, BUT movement go to 0m/s

NOW, for that reason need more tanking time, for this passive armor tank this is imposible! HOW you think repair the armor in not friendly system, without logist???

Why MOST players using the missile launching ships, In PVE??? Why MOST players using active or pasive shield tanking, In PVE???

If not to be fix these problems , this shis can be used by entuziasts and who like nice hull, and newbies for run data or relict sites in hi/low sec.Scouting or same.

But for PVP this choice is good, for solo hunting, or covert ops fleet

Sorry by poor Eng translate
Scorpionstrike
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1412 - 2013-10-09 06:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scorpionstrike
I like the fact that you can do several things in the one ship with the cov ops cloak that is great, i think its fair to make the pve side of the ship strong and the pvp side of it more defensive but still able deploy drones and weapons to be able to get involved in pvp if that is what your corp-mates are doing which i think is great as well, this game really does need a lower tier ship as the jump from frigate to tech 2, 3, was a very big jump in terms of training and cost, finally there is now a ship i can get into as i like stealth play a lot :-)
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1413 - 2013-10-09 07:26:20 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
What kind of tank are people coming up with on the Stratios? I can't seem to get much more than ~50k EHP on it without going for a ton of bling, and with only 50k EHP this won't be replacing cloaky T3s for solo WH hunting anytime soon. As part of a logi-backed fleet, these things could definitely be brutal, but on their own it seems to me that they wouldn't be able to withstand the DPS of the average site runner before they fall over.

Seems to me that it needs to lose a mid and gain a low. What does an armor bonused ship need 5 mids for, anyway?

Yes, the Stratios has a weak tank, but that isn't the biggest problem with these ships: they have horrific CPU issues. They need at least 100tf more CPU in order to be remotely comparable to a covops in actual functionality, especially the frigate. As it stands, good luck shoehorning an expanded probe launcher onto one!


Eh, who do you need to scan down, really? This isn't really a ship for hunting mission runners.
Behnid Arcani
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1414 - 2013-10-09 08:11:00 UTC
Thanks Rise.

These two ships have basically removed all my frustration wit solo exploration. Now I don't have to plant combat ready ships all over New Eden just to investigate combat anomalies.

Good job Big smile
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1415 - 2013-10-09 08:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

There is no way that these ships can currently be upgraded to match a covert ops.


You're quite correct. There is no way to upgrade these ships to completely obsolete a Covert Ops ship at its specialized role, nor should there be. These are neither CovOps ships nor T3s and they should not be equal to or better than them at what they do.

I don't know if you've been paying attention to any of the Tiericide threads or any of the T2 Rebalancing threads, but a common and core theme amongst them is that a ship should not step on the proverbial toes of any other ship unless it's absolutely necessary and in no cases should one ship ever completely obsolete any other ships, no matter what.

Please don't say "Pilgrim", as the ship hasn't been rebalanced yet and will likely see a redesign given the direction other ships have gone.

Period.


Please forgive me for not quoting your entire post, not because it wasn't valid or good, just would have made my reply a bit too long
I understand your concerns, and the tiercide has tidied up things no end.
Not sure I quite see that no ship should have the same capabilities as another ship
With training and fittings/isk it is very often possible to match another ship, I see no reason why a cruiser should be crippled because a frigate has a capability, battleships outperform cruisers in a particular function, this is quite natural for example, and it is clear that the asteros if it was given the opportunity to skill up for +10 virus and scanning strength would be severely hampered to discourage the fitting of a combat probe (expanded) launcher without severe consequences.If the cruiser is fitted for exploration, again compromises are made to it's combat capability, this is right and good.

This is before the covert ops is rebalanced, we do not know what plans are in store for it.I really do not see why an exploration ship should never be able to explore as well as a combat support ship.I am not saying it should be a free win, there will be a price to pay for that opportunity.
Things are as they are due to the historical decision to bolt on an additional capability to the covert ops ship.there were reasons for that at that time, they will no doubt be adressed in the rebalance.

Please read my post 1382 there are suggestions that may ease some of your concerns.
Even if you do not believe these ships should exist, please see if you find that they reduce your worries,I accept that you may be concerned, I am trying to find and make suggestions that allow all of us to have an acceptable solution.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1416 - 2013-10-09 10:12:26 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
cruiser looks fun. renders my Ishtar obsolete.
An Ishtar's heavies track and move like mediums, your Ishtar isn't fighting for its role, but if you have one, your Proteus is.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1417 - 2013-10-09 10:44:34 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
cruiser looks fun. renders my Ishtar obsolete.
An Ishtar's heavies track and move like mediums, your Ishtar isn't fighting for its role, but if you have one, your Proteus is.


They really really don't :P

but alright.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Pheadra Aurilen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1418 - 2013-10-09 11:06:41 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


This is the way it works and the way it should be.

Let's stop trying to return T2 ships to worthlessness after Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium have been spending so much time to make them useful:

  • No +10 strength that you don't even need in order to hack in null.
  • No stepping on every other ship's toes just because these are pirate ships.
  • No obsoleting cheaper ships just because they're cheaper.


These SoE ships are bonused for everything; they should pay for it by never being as good at any one thing as a corresponding T2 ship. No T2-level bonuses on a T1-level ship.

Period.


I agree entirely.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1419 - 2013-10-09 11:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
AlmightyJoygasm wrote:
IHMO the frigate could use the following.

Astero:

Needs longer targeting range, at least 40-45km (about avaerage for the cov ops)
Non Static scan probe strenth, should be 10% per covert ops level (comparable to cov ops)
+ 10 virus strength (comparable to cov ops)
A third Hi Slot (comparable to cov ops)
+ 2 warp strength (if only :-)) (proably the one real stand out stat to make this ship unique)
Assuming at least 2 rigs
Sub warp velocity of at least 375 m/s (Above average when compared to cov ops but still less than a cheetah)

Some covert ops still have better attributes than the above, so its not like this would be too far fetched (apart from the +2 warp strength mabey :-)

EDIT: Has anybody mentioned cloak re-activation delay yet? Assume this would be 5 seconds?

"Better attributes". Heh. Name me a single reason to use Cov Ops for explo after your proposed changes, perhaps?

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
This is the way it works and the way it should be.

Let's stop trying to return T2 ships to worthlessness after Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium have been spending so much time to make them useful:

  • No +10 strength that you don't even need in order to hack in null.
  • No stepping on every other ship's toes just because these are pirate ships.
  • No obsoleting cheaper ships just because they're cheaper.


These SoE ships are bonused for everything; they should pay for it by never being as good at any one thing as a corresponding T2 ship. No T2-level bonuses on a T1-level ship.

Period.

So much this.
Zubriel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1420 - 2013-10-09 12:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zubriel
Will the cargo hold be able to hold a new Depot-deployable?

Edit: These look fantastic. and with the depots I really don't see the need for the "2/4/4 should be 4/4/4" etc...
They should be expensive though. I mean since they contain secret SoE sleeper tech and such ;)