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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1421 - 2013-10-09 12:18:51 UTC
Quote:
This is the way it works and the way it should be.

Let's stop trying to return T2 ships to worthlessness after Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium have been spending so much time to make them useful:


No +10 strength that you don't even need in order to hack in null.
No stepping on every other ship's toes just because these are pirate ships.
No obsoleting cheaper ships just because they're cheaper.



These SoE ships are bonused for everything; they should pay for it by never being as good at any one thing as a corresponding T2 ship. No T2-level bonuses on a T1-level ship.


Lol, someone is trying hard to defend his golden goose, as it were.

Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.

One will automatically invalidate the other regardless of which one it is. If the T2 cov ops remain the only ones with +10 virus strength, then they COMPLETELY obsolete every ship that doesn't have +10 for the role of hacking cans. Including the Strat.

Because when you're doing these null sites, the only damn thing that matters is that virus strength. It lets you do the sites faster, which means less time uncloaked, and with much reduced risk of losing a can, so they are outright more profitable. I don't care about whichever Lucky Larry says they can do nullsec relic sites in a noobship or a Imicus or whatever. That's not the norm, that is the exception. But for a ship like this, not having +10 pretty much relegates it to only doing combat sites. +10 or go home.

So, please tell me, which ship have their toes stepped on by the Stratios? Because I sure as hell know that it's not the Ishtar. This thing isn't half of what that ship is. You even said it, a ship bonused for a lot of different things pays for it. It doesn't have T2 resist profiles, it doesn't have application or range bonuses, and thus it is nowhere close to as useful in fleet actions.

So, is it the T2 cov ops frigates? Good. Those ships desperately need redesigned anyway, and so does the whole binary concept of virus strength. That entire mechanic needs to be thought over. This can be a good start to that.

Oh, and this is my favorite piece of non-logic thus far today, so I just had to quote it again.

Quote:
No obsoleting cheaper ships just because they're cheaper.


Ok, so the cheaper ship is supposed to obsolete a ship 15 times it's cost, right? Because that makes sense?

That's the part you are conveniently omitting. It's binary. Either it has +10 virus and it can compete, or it doesn't and it might as well be zero.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1422 - 2013-10-09 12:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Please please explain, how if the explorer ships require the same training as the covert ops, cost far more than the covert ops,are unable to fill the covert ops role of combat scanning without giving up their advantages, and generally are not designed for combat support and acting as a seeker for fleets like the covert ops ship should,that it would make it redundant? There is no reason why this would happen.

Realistically these ships are coming.
Combat ops ships will be rebalanced shortly.
Explorers are doing their best to offer compromises to satisfy concerns, which unfortuneately are being completely ignored.
Can we move on from the position of explorer ships are just bad and try to find a reasonable solution. Discussing a way forward does not mean you lose.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1423 - 2013-10-09 12:27:14 UTC
The same guys are still spamming this thread i see... You're just making the developers job harder.
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1424 - 2013-10-09 12:28:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1425 - 2013-10-09 12:37:50 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.


My apologies for having an opinion, I personally would be a little more concerned about suiciding a 100mil ship for pointless failure than a heron.and apart from that really!!! The ONLY reasons one would use a heron in null are as bait, because you wanted a cheap ship you didn't mind losing, you didn't have the skills for anything else, or you were incapable of making an appropriate choice for the circumstances and are beyond help.
So the solution is to make these ships as much use as a chocolate fireguard for exploration. Yeah right, great reasoning

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1426 - 2013-10-09 12:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.


My apologies for having an opinion, I personally would be a little more concerned about suiciding a 100mil ship for pointless failure than a heron.and apart from that really!!! The ONLY reasons one would use a heron in null are as bait, because you wanted a cheap ship you didn't mind losing, you didn't have the skills for anything else, or you were incapable of making an appropriate choice for the circumstances and are beyond help.
So the solution is to make these ships as much use as a chocolate fireguard for exploration. Yeah right, great reasoning



No you are flat wrong it was months after the patch that I got around to training T2 mods, so I was running around with T1 analyzers with a cov-ops.

Guess what I completed null relic/data sites relatively easily. If can can't figure out how to do it without max skills and bonuses its not my issue its your whining, no more. I've also run relic sites out of boredum without and emergent locust on my proteus....i.e. NO virus bonues.


I could finish them that way as well.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1427 - 2013-10-09 12:41:20 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
The same guys are still spamming this thread i see... You're just making the developers job harder.


You are right, however is it the people who will not accept change and are unwilling to discuss a way forward, or the ones who are trying to open a reasonable discussion to find a common ground? Who are spamming?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1428 - 2013-10-09 12:44:56 UTC
Cost, training time, and accessibility are not balancing factors. See the old titans for reasons why.
Cost is not a reason to obsolete an entire line of ships.

Also, they temporarily changed 2 agents for SOE to level 4 security agents, so I am now confident that these ships will come from a high sec LP store.

Just out of curiosity how does anyone feel about calling these ships "Coalition" ships rather than "pirate" ships?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1429 - 2013-10-09 12:47:06 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, training time, and accessibility are not balancing factors. See the old titans for reasons why.
Cost is not a reason to obsolete an entire line of ships.

Also, they temporarily changed 2 agents for SOE to level 4 security agents, so I am now confident that these ships will come from a high sec LP store.

Just out of curiosity how does anyone feel about calling these ships "Coalition" ships rather than "pirate" ships?



They were going to be coming out of Osmon anyway, you think people want to try to ninja jump frieghtors into fade?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1430 - 2013-10-09 12:47:16 UTC
Onictus wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.


My apologies for having an opinion, I personally would be a little more concerned about suiciding a 100mil ship for pointless failure than a heron.and apart from that really!!! The ONLY reasons one would use a heron in null are as bait, because you wanted a cheap ship you didn't mind losing, you didn't have the skills for anything else, or you were incapable of making an appropriate choice for the circumstances and are beyond help.
So the solution is to make these ships as much use as a chocolate fireguard for exploration. Yeah right, great reasoning



No you are flat wrong it was months after the patch that I got around to training T2 mods, so I was running around with T1 analyzers with a cov-ops.

Guess what I completed null relic/data sites relatively easily. If can can't figure out how to do it without max skills and bonuses its not my issue its your whining, no more. I've also run relic sites out of boredum with and emergent locust on my proteus....i.e. NO virus bonues.


I could finish them that way as well.

Exactly nice to see you agree.
T2 covert ops has standard 10% plus t1 analysers and it can do sites in null.
The current stratios and asteros do not and as such can't do them effectively, we are Not asking for more than you just quoted.
We want the option to train up to what you have as a basic.Nothing more, we do not want a free pass, we are willing to work for it.
What we find unacceptable is we can NEVER train at the moment to that point.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1431 - 2013-10-09 12:50:31 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

What we find unacceptable is we can NEVER train at the moment to that point.



You are making a mountain out of non-issue.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1432 - 2013-10-09 12:53:30 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, training time, and accessibility are not balancing factors. See the old titans for reasons why.
Cost is not a reason to obsolete an entire line of ships.

Also, they temporarily changed 2 agents for SOE to level 4 security agents, so I am now confident that these ships will come from a high sec LP store.

Just out of curiosity how does anyone feel about calling these ships "Coalition" ships rather than "pirate" ships?



They were going to be coming out of Osmon anyway, you think people want to try to ninja jump frieghtors into fade?

Cloaky, nullified, nano, stabed t3 ships can get blueprints out of almost anywhere.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1433 - 2013-10-09 12:54:49 UTC
Onictus wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

What we find unacceptable is we can NEVER train at the moment to that point.



You are making a mountain out of non-issue.

Unfortunately to explorers it is anything but a non issue,
To people suffering in The developing world clean water is vital, to you it comes out of a tap,
what is a non issue to you is of vital importance for others.
is it unacceptable for us to request, no demand the ability for EXPLORERS to explore as well as a combat support ship, if willing to put the time, training, price, and effort into it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1434 - 2013-10-09 12:55:55 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.


Further down the part you quoted, I explained this further.

In null, the only serious factor effecting you is virus strength. There are no rats anymore, so the only real thing you need to think about is doing the hacking as fast as possible so you can scoop loot and cloak back up again. Higher virus strength minimizes the amount of time spent not cloaked, and increases the speed at which you can generate profit. Nevermind it's much less easy to outright lose a can with +10.

Nevermind some of the sheer, sadistic crap I have seen in some of those nullsec cans is pretty much the norm. If I don't pop two suppressors by the time I am done with a good can, then I count myself lucky. So idk what nullsec stuff you have been doing, but I've been in there since Odyssey hit, and +10 is what you need. Like I said, I pretty much discount whichever Lucky Larry comes by and spouts off about how you can do nullsec sites with a noobship. That's luck, and it's not the reality of doing it out there for significant periods of time.

If virus strength could be obtained anywhere else? It might not be +10 or go home. But that's the reality of it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1435 - 2013-10-09 13:02:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.


Further down the part you quoted, I explained this further.

In null, the only serious factor effecting you is virus strength. There are no rats anymore, so the only real thing you need to think about is doing the hacking as fast as possible so you can scoop loot and cloak back up again. Higher virus strength minimizes the amount of time spent not cloaked, and increases the speed at which you can generate profit. Nevermind it's much less easy to outright lose a can with +10.

Nevermind some of the sheer, sadistic crap I have seen in some of those nullsec cans is pretty much the norm. If I don't pop two suppressors by the time I am done with a good can, then I count myself lucky. So idk what nullsec stuff you have been doing, but I've been in there since Odyssey hit, and +10 is what you need. Like I said, I pretty much discount whichever Lucky Larry comes by and spouts off about how you can do nullsec sites with a noobship. That's luck, and it's not the reality of doing it out there for significant periods of time.

If virus strength could be obtained anywhere else? It might not be +10 or go home. But that's the reality of it.



Jeee what null sec sites would I be doing? DO you see my alliance? I have like 9 regions worth of sites when I get on a scanning rampage. Without the +5 strength oh no, you have only 35 max attack....so what? A smart player keeps a bit of help around just for those virus suppressors....

I'd use the SOE frigate over a cov-ops just so I didn't have to RTB as often.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1436 - 2013-10-09 13:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Look here. The problem is the fact that, because it cannot be obtained any other way besides role bonus, virus strength is a very binary matter. Either you have +10 and thus are useful outside of highsec, or you are not.




This line is complete unfettered crap, there is NO reason you can't complete a site outside of high sec with +5 strength, people run with Herons and such in null all of the time.


Further down the part you quoted, I explained this further.

In null, the only serious factor effecting you is virus strength. There are no rats anymore, so the only real thing you need to think about is doing the hacking as fast as possible so you can scoop loot and cloak back up again. Higher virus strength minimizes the amount of time spent not cloaked, and increases the speed at which you can generate profit. Nevermind it's much less easy to outright lose a can with +10.

Nevermind some of the sheer, sadistic crap I have seen in some of those nullsec cans is pretty much the norm. If I don't pop two suppressors by the time I am done with a good can, then I count myself lucky. So idk what nullsec stuff you have been doing, but I've been in there since Odyssey hit, and +10 is what you need. Like I said, I pretty much discount whichever Lucky Larry comes by and spouts off about how you can do nullsec sites with a noobship. That's luck, and it's not the reality of doing it out there for significant periods of time.

If virus strength could be obtained anywhere else? It might not be +10 or go home. But that's the reality of it.



Jeee what null sec sites would I be doing? DO you see my alliance? I have like 9 regions worth of sites when I get on a scanning rampage. Without the +5 strength oh no, you have only 35 max attack....so what? A smart player keeps a bit of help around just for those virus suppressors....

I'd use the SOE frigate over a cov-ops just so I didn't have to RTB as often.


Ah could this be the issue and explain why you cannot understand us, you don't have 35 attack at all on an unbonused ship. you have 20 with T1 analyser plus your ship bonus. There are no rigs, fittings, skills, accessories other than analysers that can raise this in any way, your're not confusing virus strength with coherence are you.

Or have you suddenly upgraded to T2 analysers without telling us? Sort of a whole new argument, just muddying the waters.

If the stratios and asteros do not have a ship bonus of +10 to virus strength there is no reason to EVER use them as exploration ships, they would be called PVE or PVP or long range combat ships.
Please rather than say don't want please discuss how they can be exploration ships WITHOUT overly concerning you.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1437 - 2013-10-09 13:16:51 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Or have you suddenly upgraded to T2 analysers without telling us?



I said I didn't get around to training T2s for months, not that I never trained T2s. Do try and keep up. Like I said as someone that LIVES in null sec we see a fair few T1 frigates ninjaing sites look through the killboards you will numerous well laden T1s.

......doubting they jumped 18 jumps of low sec and about 10 more null jumps to "explore" with a full hold.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1438 - 2013-10-09 13:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Onictus wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Or have you suddenly upgraded to T2 analysers without telling us?



I said I didn't get around to training T2s for months, not that I never trained T2s. Do try and keep up. Like I said as someone that LIVES in null sec we see a fair few T1 frigates ninjaing sites look through the killboards you will numerous well laden T1s.

......doubting they jumped 18 jumps of low sec and about 10 more null jumps to "explore" with a full hold.



Sorry, i am replying to you. And I am reading what you say very carefully.
I agree covert ops with T1 is capable of getting a reasonable amount of cans, that is all we want and are willing to train, spend the isk and time to do so. Nothing more, we are not seeking an advantage over that.

Regarding T1 in killmails, that rather proves my point, they are so vulnerable spending so long struggling with horrifically difficult minigames without ship bonus. And it is quite realistic that a proportion of their loot if not most came from losec.
I have also seen plenty of combat frigates with full holds, doesn't mean they didn't kill and loot other players.Far more likely.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Xorionna
EVE University
Ivy League
#1439 - 2013-10-09 13:44:14 UTC
how about having some bonuses to the one/all of the new scanning modules for the ship ? (+25 to +50 efficiency with these modules ?). Sounds more like SOE to me.
exploring is not necesseraly hacking, so +5 is enought.
Deviant X
Deviant Inc
Apocalypse Now.
#1440 - 2013-10-09 13:47:18 UTC
Sounds like the impact of virus strength on exploration needs to be tweaked to allow for a more linear progression. If anything, this thread helps underline issues with exploration.

Zero for high-sec
+5 for low-sec
+10 for null-sec.

or update it to be:

+5 for high-sec
+10 for low sec
+15 for null-sec.

That assumes the only limited factor in success is virus strength.

I'd say CCP would also need to adjust sites by skill level too.

level III for high-sec.
level IV for low-sec.
T2 and level V for null-sec.

Allow for progression. Even with the 'ideal' skill set, there should be a chance for failure. SoE probes and modules should also help improve success. Nothing should be 100%.

Agreement or disagreement, this conversation has acted like a mini-Pandora's box. It has let some exploration issues out of the bag for open discussion ... even under the guise of SoE ships. IMO of course.