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[Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers

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Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#61 - 2013-10-07 15:18:02 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


"yes hello mother, it's Gor. hi. listen, i just figured out that shooting battleship weapons at a sig tanked BC is less efficient than shooting smaller weapons. what? no i didn't apply a target painter, i don't have time. yes, i'm posting right now, why do you ask? no i won't look like an idiot, mother this is important. please don't use that tone mother"
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#62 - 2013-10-07 15:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
Faife wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


"yes hello mother, it's Gor. hi. listen, i just figured out that shooting battleship weapons at a sig tanked BC is less efficient than shooting smaller weapons. what? no i didn't apply a target painter, i don't have time. yes, i'm posting right now, why do you ask? no i won't look like an idiot, mother this is important. please don't use that tone mother"


heavy missiles aren't battleship weapons you idiot

also mwding shield taloses arent exactly super sig tanked he's just trying to show you how bad hml damage application is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#63 - 2013-10-07 15:21:57 UTC
Capqu wrote:
Faife wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


"yes hello mother, it's Gor. hi. listen, i just figured out that shooting battleship weapons at a sig tanked BC is less efficient than shooting smaller weapons. what? no i didn't apply a target painter, i don't have time. yes, i'm posting right now, why do you ask? no i won't look like an idiot, mother this is important. please don't use that tone mother"


heavy missiles aren't battleship weapons you idiot

also mwding shield taloses arent exactly sig tanked he's just trying to show you how bad hml damage application is


"mother hi! hi! listen, great idea. no, calm down. listen. i'm going to fit rapid heavy missile launchers on cruisers! surprise! small size, low cost, but battleship dps! mother? what's so funny mother?"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2013-10-07 15:23:47 UTC
Faife wrote:
Capqu wrote:
Faife wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


"yes hello mother, it's Gor. hi. listen, i just figured out that shooting battleship weapons at a sig tanked BC is less efficient than shooting smaller weapons. what? no i didn't apply a target painter, i don't have time. yes, i'm posting right now, why do you ask? no i won't look like an idiot, mother this is important. please don't use that tone mother"


heavy missiles aren't battleship weapons you idiot

also mwding shield taloses arent exactly sig tanked he's just trying to show you how bad hml damage application is


"mother hi! hi! listen, great idea. no, calm down. listen. i'm going to fit rapid heavy missile launchers on cruisers! surprise! small size, low cost, but battleship dps! mother? what's so funny mother?"


stop posting
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#65 - 2013-10-07 15:28:05 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Faife wrote:


"mother hi! hi! listen, great idea. no, calm down. listen. i'm going to fit rapid heavy missile launchers on cruisers! surprise! small size, low cost, but battleship dps! mother? what's so funny mother?"


stop posting


"and then mother, i told him 'stop posting'. aren't i just the worst? ha ha. no, it was online. like on a forum. yes, on the spaceship one. mother please, i'm an adult. this is exactly what i mean when i say you don't respect me."
Xicho
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#66 - 2013-10-07 15:28:11 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:

All I'm getting from this is they should nerf ABCs and links.
David Kir
Hotbirds
#67 - 2013-10-07 15:29:02 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
Looking at the ship bonus's, here is a run down by ship on which ones it makes sense on.

CNR: Won't fit as neither bonus applies.
Navy Scorp: Both bonus's apply as one is tank the other is rate of fire Cruise will still be better.
Raven: 1 out of 2 bonus apply, range is too short to want to equip because of lack of velocity bonus. Not really worth it.
Typhoon: 1 out of 2 bonus apply, application bonus would make this ship really stand out if it applied...
Fleet Issue Typhoon: This one could work as well as the missile bonus can be fully exploited
Golem: Well hopefully the +100 percent damage to bs missile launchers applies, this one would have been the best of them all if the application + range were applied. My guess bastion won't apply either....
Rattlesnake: missile velocity bonus won't apply. Another ship this would have been perfect for.
Armageddon: No actual missile bonus, a good fit, but inconsequential for the discussion because of lack of bonus.

As a backup system for ships like the Tempest / Tempest Fleet Issue these will be excellent.

So only 2 of the 7 bonused hulls will allow for full use of their missile bonus. With the recent nerf to HML application, these really have little to no value for most BS to even consider. Precision Cruise will apply damn near just as well as precision cruise to smaller targets, and much more dps / alpha to larger targets.

My suggestion would be to nerf the RoF slighty (seems a little too rapid in the first iteration), then allow for all bonuses to apply while giving heavy missiles a slight (5-10%) buff to explosion velocity. Then we have a compelling choice.


I'd rather have some cap warfare in my 'pest's highs than mount a couple missile launchers,

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Boltorano
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-10-07 15:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Boltorano
True Sansha missile launchers haven't existed since circa 2007-08 when the player flown hulls were changed to pure laser boats.

What's the point in making a TS version if nobody can ever get one? Roll
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#69 - 2013-10-07 15:33:48 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Could you nerf RLML's (and LML's for that matter) down to an acceptable state before you start copying the idea?


RLML's basically turn a Caracal into a 30k ehp destroyer.. that is also faster than the Caldari missile destroyer....

As it stands lml's are by FAR the best weapon system for kiting in frigates, it isn't even close to being a contest.


I think the missiles them selves need a nerf but i also think that RLML's should take more fittings, as it is you can way to easily overtank a rlml ship to compensate for the slight lack of dps.

And i'm saying this as someone who has quite enjoyed abusing rlml's.


I fail to grasp how LMLs and RLML are overpowered. Just cause heavies suck doesn't mean that small LR missiles need to be ****. They aren't OP, they are doing what they are intended to do. They are working. That's all.

Else, 430dps from RLMLs is not always better compared to the 770dps from HAMs on a cerb, it just depends.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#70 - 2013-10-07 15:38:49 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Could you nerf RLML's (and LML's for that matter) down to an acceptable state before you start copying the idea?


RLML's basically turn a Caracal into a 30k ehp destroyer.. that is also faster than the Caldari missile destroyer....

As it stands lml's are by FAR the best weapon system for kiting in frigates, it isn't even close to being a contest.


I think the missiles them selves need a nerf but i also think that RLML's should take more fittings, as it is you can way to easily overtank a rlml ship to compensate for the slight lack of dps.

And i'm saying this as someone who has quite enjoyed abusing rlml's.


I fail to grasp how LMLs and RLML are overpowered. Just cause heavies suck doesn't mean that small LR missiles need to be ****. They aren't OP, they are doing what they are intended to do. They are working. That's all.

Else, 430dps from RLMLs is not always better compared to the 770dps from HAMs on a cerb, it just depends.


Try making a beam laser executioner, then compare it to a condor.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#71 - 2013-10-07 15:42:56 UTC
Quote:
Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).


now well that sucks balls...

i had this picture in my mind of the phoon being a useful fleet ship...

i saw the phoon as the new anti ahac ship...

now i am unsure why would you fit the new launcher if you cant take advantage of the ships bonus.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Jayne Fillon
#72 - 2013-10-07 15:46:17 UTC
I'm currently running the numbers on the new ships, but the bonus to explosion radius and velocity from the RNI and Typhoon seems like an oversight imho. I'll confirm this once I actually run the numbers, but I'm suspicious that without these bonuses the new missiles will come across as an afterthought, not an alternative.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#73 - 2013-10-07 15:48:46 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I'm currently running the numbers on the new ships, but the bonus to explosion radius and velocity from the RNI and Typhoon seems like an oversight imho. I'll confirm this once I actually run the numbers, but I'm suspicious that without these bonuses the new missiles will come across as an afterthought, not an alternative.


yeah its like telling me the tracking bonus on the megathron only works on ions and nuetron but not elctron blasters

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-10-07 15:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
CCP Rise wrote:


Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).


Can you share your reasoning on this point? Heavy missiles were weak compared to the other medium long range weapons even before they were buffed, moreover heavy missiles suffer from terrible application and poor dps, and with application being essentially the only reason anyone will use these weapons I think you're going to find that aside from early exploration into this concept people are not going to use this weapon system.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#75 - 2013-10-07 16:03:41 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
RLMLs are overpowered because light missiles are overpowered, but also just the role itself. We have these things called destroyers, which are supposed to kill frigates - it's what they do, and then the caracal comes along and does more damage at 5x the range, goes faster and has many times the tank.
Not sure why we need another class of ships that wrecks cruisers, we already have battlecruisers, and they're far more prominent than they probably should be.


RLML Caracal has the same range as a Talwar, and most certainly is not as fast, for 10x the cost. Indeed it does have a better tank. But +1 ship size category. Get your facts straight.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2013-10-07 16:06:57 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).


Can you share your reasoning on this point? Heavy missiles were weak compared to the other medium long range weapons even before they were buffed, moreover heavy missiles suffer from terrible application and poor dps, and with application being essentially the only reason anyone will use these weapons I think you're going to find that aside from early exploration into this concept people are not going to use this weapon system.


I can see me using this for dealing with solo cruisers.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#77 - 2013-10-07 16:07:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

That the same kind of continuity CCP has avoided like the plague when it comes to pulse lasers?


God, lasers make me so autistic. We have small focused lasers, and focused medium lasers, and we have both light lasers and small lasers. I don't remember which CCP guy thought this was a good idea. We also have pulse energy beams.


Confirming that the entire laser naming scheme is a bane to good grammar and to noobs trying to figure out what to fit.

[Edit: Oh, and the word "maser" is ****ing stupid.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maser

Learn to weapons.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-10-07 16:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: TheFace Asano
David Kir wrote:
TheFace Asano wrote:
Looking at the ship bonus's, here is a run down by ship on which ones it makes sense on.

CNR: Won't fit as neither bonus applies.
Navy Scorp: Both bonus's apply as one is tank the other is rate of fire Cruise will still be better.
Raven: 1 out of 2 bonus apply, range is too short to want to equip because of lack of velocity bonus. Not really worth it.
Typhoon: 1 out of 2 bonus apply, application bonus would make this ship really stand out if it applied...
Fleet Issue Typhoon: This one could work as well as the missile bonus can be fully exploited
Golem: Well hopefully the +100 percent damage to bs missile launchers applies, this one would have been the best of them all if the application + range were applied. My guess bastion won't apply either....
Rattlesnake: missile velocity bonus won't apply. Another ship this would have been perfect for.
Armageddon: No actual missile bonus, a good fit, but inconsequential for the discussion because of lack of bonus.

As a backup system for ships like the Tempest / Tempest Fleet Issue these will be excellent.

So only 2 of the 7 bonused hulls will allow for full use of their missile bonus. With the recent nerf to HML application, these really have little to no value for most BS to even consider. Precision Cruise will apply damn near just as well as precision cruise to smaller targets, and much more dps / alpha to larger targets.

My suggestion would be to nerf the RoF slighty (seems a little too rapid in the first iteration), then allow for all bonuses to apply while giving heavy missiles a slight (5-10%) buff to explosion velocity. Then we have a compelling choice.


I'd rather have some cap warfare in my 'pest's highs than mount a couple missile launchers,


I agree, but it gives you the option for extra damage with easier fitting option than cruise and more dps than just adding standard heavy missile launchers.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#79 - 2013-10-07 16:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Rise wrote:
Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).

As has been previously mentioned by others, if this is the case RHMLs are just going to end up being a niche weapon. As this IS a battleship-class weapon - explosion velocity, explosion radius and missile velocity should all apply. Even with these bonuses, any battleship setup with RHMLs will still be looking at less range and less overall DPS; the only benefit will be improved damage application against cruiser-sized ships (as it should be) - but you'll also be sacrificing hitting power against larger targets.

PS. A rapid-firing light (cruiser) and medium (battleship) laser for the Amarr should also be a consideration, since they lack any crystals that improve tracking speed (damage application).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ambassador Spock
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-10-07 16:20:41 UTC
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
So no bonus on ships like the rattlesnake because it only gives velocity bonus or do we get a damage bonus for it? Just wondering, like the new launchers but to make it viable we need a bit of love for HM ;)


Just a thought, but with the (eventual) addition of a new drone-focused Pirate BS (SoE), I'd love to see the Rattlesnake re-purposed as a RHML-bonused BS; sort of the Caracal of Battleships

 --  - Ambassador Spock

"Vulcans never bluff."