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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

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RAW23
#2321 - 2013-10-01 12:43:28 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:


20,000 sheep following a drunk megalomaniac made CCP change direction for the worse ... gee you must be proud of yourselves.


You show a remarkable lack of knowledge of the sequence of events for someone who wants to hold forth on the topic. Assuming that the drunk megalomaniac is Mittens, he was very very much a follower and not a leader in the case of Incarna. He certainly had nothing to do with organising the popular outcry and only became involved much later, after CCP called the CSM to Iceland to help them deal with the issue.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
RAW23
#2322 - 2013-10-01 12:45:49 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
[quote=RAW23]

And although the above is true, I think the point is that the lost subs were nothing to do with CCP's vision of WiS. They lost subs because of a myriad of other mistakes they made running up to and around the time of release of Incarna.


I don't think anyone really objected to CCP's publicly trailed vision of WiS. What they objected to was the immense disconnect between the vision and the reality of its implementation after it had sucked vast quantities of resources away from core gameplay.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2323 - 2013-10-01 12:58:26 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
J3ssica Alba wrote:


20,000 sheep following a drunk megalomaniac made CCP change direction for the worse ... gee you must be proud of yourselves.


You show a remarkable lack of knowledge of the sequence of events for someone who wants to hold forth on the topic. Assuming that the drunk megalomaniac is Mittens, he was very very much a follower and not a leader in the case of Incarna. He certainly had nothing to do with organising the popular outcry and only became involved much later, after CCP called the CSM to Iceland to help them deal with the issue.



Tbh I don't care what his involvement was or wasn't but all I hear is the goonsheep bleating in this thread
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2324 - 2013-10-01 13:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
RAW23 wrote:
Arduemont wrote:


And although the above is true, I think the point is that the lost subs were nothing to do with CCP's vision of WiS. They lost subs because of a myriad of other mistakes they made running up to and around the time of release of Incarna.

I don't think anyone really objected to CCP's publicly trailed vision of WiS. What they objected to was the immense disconnect between the vision and the reality of its implementation after it had sucked vast quantities of resources away from core gameplay.

Well, the reality was that it was never implemented at all. Unless you want to argue that our CQ is anything more than a fancy screen saver.

The expansion Incarna was marketed as being about Walking in Stations, but the reality of it was that CCP rolled out CARBON in Incarna. That's what Incarna was really about. And no one can argue that Carbon was a waste of time, especially as it is the basis for most of the changes we have seen since. V3, TiDi, all the new UIs, the new Crimewatch, and everything else more or less.

What CCP did wrong, was expectation management. If they had said, "Look, we're rolling out the Carbon engine in the next expansion. You wont see most of the benefit until our next expansion, but here is a single room as a teaser of what is to come", then people would have known and understood. Instead, they hyped the **** out of something that probably took up a tiny part of their development time from that expansion, and then were surprised that everyone was disappointed.

The point is that Incarna was no reflection on what is possible for WiS, and shouldn't be used as an argument against it's development.

J3ssica Alba wrote:
Tbh I don't care what his involvement was or wasn't but all I hear is the goonsheep bleating in this thread

/me Facepalm.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
RAW23
#2325 - 2013-10-01 13:21:28 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
[quote=RAW23]

The point is that Incarna was no reflection on what is possible for WiS, and shouldn't be used as an argument against it's development.


I certainly agree with this - Incarna didn't represent what was possible and I'm hopeful that they won't **** it up to such a grand extent again. However, after four (?) years of development, what it did represent was a pathetic actualisation of the vision. Now, the idea that the next expansion would have been the big one and CCP just needed to manage expectations better is attractive but I'm not convinced that it stands up to scrutiny from a historical perspective. CCP themselves have admitted that they had no actual sustainable vision for the content of WiS. It's not the case that great stuff was just six months away. On the contrary, it sounds like little more than a few extra skins for CQ were around the corner and perhaps a couple of pretty crappy facebook style board-games. They flat out stated that there wasn't actually any cool stuff on the near horizon, probably because they had become caught up in the avatar ownership idea, thinking that delivering 'thousand dollar jeans' to EvE's geeky fanbase was an end in itself.

As far as I can see, the current project is trying to do what should have been done in the first place. Create content first.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#2326 - 2013-10-01 13:39:45 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
..I've read some of the Star Citizen devblogs. I gather that they have procured approximately 20m dollars for their game development.

Things are not looking good.

Prediction: SC will fall on its face. 6 months in - become Freemium. 1.5 years in - close the servers and pocket some cash.

Then where will all you Dancing Space Wizzards go?


1) almost all "sandboxy" space games during last decade gathered ~85% "very interesting" ratings (EVE has 84%) including X-series, Space Rangers, people still play Freelancer (by Chris Roberts / SC author) 10 years after its release - it's impossible to create boring space sandbox game;

2) there will be 4 more sandbox releases - Elite Dangerous, Repopulation, Everquest Next, Camelot Unchained - 3 of them are being created by very reputable devs, so this is the last year when EVE doesn't have any interesting sandbox competitors and in a year there won't be any problems to find alternative sandbox game for any taste and all of them will have avatar gameplay. Unlike EVE.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2327 - 2013-10-01 14:00:02 UTC
Incarnagate, somerblinkgate, tosgate, or maybe even rubicongate? Shocked

You people spend too much time on forums.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2328 - 2013-10-01 14:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Lipbite wrote:
Syds Sinclair wrote:
..I've read some of the Star Citizen devblogs. I gather that they have procured approximately 20m dollars for their game development.

Things are not looking good.

Prediction: SC will fall on its face. 6 months in - become Freemium. 1.5 years in - close the servers and pocket some cash.

Then where will all you Dancing Space Wizzards go?


1) almost all "sandboxy" space games during last decade gathered ~85% "very interesting" ratings (EVE has 84%) including X-series, Space Rangers, people still play Freelancer (by Chris Roberts / SC author) 10 years after its release - it's impossible to create boring space sandbox game;

2) there will be 4 more sandbox releases - Elite Dangerous, Repopulation, Everquest Next, Camelot Unchained - 3 of them are being created by very reputable devs, so this is the last year when EVE doesn't have any interesting sandbox competitors and in a year there won't be any problems to find alternative sandbox game for any taste and all of them will have avatar gameplay. Unlike EVE.


Heh, but EVE will let you conquer space, hold it, exploit it, fight massive battles over it and eventually lose it to [enter bigger alliance], unlike... errr.. exactly as it has been doing for 10 years!

And in case that such prospect is not your piece of cake, or you just fancy being a human being doing human stuff in a SF universe rather than be an anonymous ship asploding other anonymous ships, well, CCP also haves a plan for you: give your money to someone else! Because, that's exactly what they've been doing with your EVE monies for some years now... Blink

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2329 - 2013-10-01 14:01:37 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
I've read some of the Star Citizen devblogs. I gather that they have procured approximately 20m dollars for their game development.

Things are not looking good.

Prediction: SC will fall on its face. 6 months in - become Freemium. 1.5 years in - close the servers and pocket some cash.

Oh 'come on, atleast be an educated troll, hm?

First: The budget it totally irrelevant... EVE's development only took 2.6 mil.

Second: SC has no subscription fees, only a chash shop, that offers nothing that cannot be bought with ingame cradits.
What the game already has, however, are 260k backers that pledged an average of 60$... and all those will be players.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Flamespar
WarRavens
#2330 - 2013-10-01 14:01:45 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Incarnagate, somerblinkgate, tosgate, or maybe even rubicongate? Shocked

You people spend too much time on forums.


Shutyourgate?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#2331 - 2013-10-01 14:25:20 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And in case that such prospect is not your piece of cake, or you just fancy being a human being doing human stuff in a SF universe rather than be an anonymous ship asploding other anonymous ships, well, CCP also haves a plan for you: give your money to someone else!


That's what we've been telling you for years now.

This game isn't for you, and it never will be. Other games aren't for me, and never will be, but I don't hang around the forums suggesting they should completely alter the fundamentals of the game.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2332 - 2013-10-01 14:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
RAW23 wrote:
Arduemont wrote:

The point is that Incarna was no reflection on what is possible for WiS, and shouldn't be used as an argument against it's development.

I certainly agree with this - Incarna didn't represent what was possible and I'm hopeful that they won't **** it up to such a grand extent again. However, after four (?) years of development, what it did represent was a pathetic actualisation of the vision. Now, the idea that the next expansion would have been the big one and CCP just needed to manage expectations better is attractive but I'm not convinced that it stands up to scrutiny from a historical perspective. CCP themselves have admitted that they had no actual sustainable vision for the content of WiS. It's not the case that great stuff was just six months away. On the contrary, it sounds like little more than a few extra skins for CQ were around the corner and perhaps a couple of pretty crappy facebook style board-games. They flat out stated that there wasn't actually any cool stuff on the near horizon, probably because they had become caught up in the avatar ownership idea, thinking that delivering 'thousand dollar jeans' to EvE's geeky fanbase was an end in itself.

As far as I can see, the current project is trying to do what should have been done in the first place. Create content first.

Seems like you and I are more or less on the same page. I can't disagree with anything you've said in particular. I am of the mind that the corporate quarters that may have come first might have been nice, if a little lacking in content. You could see they were planning it from a UI teaser they released which showed the UI for managing people numbers and entrances into the "Corporate Quarters".

A lot of people think that CCP aren't capable of the new Avatar prototype vision, except I think CCP are perfectly capable of making this prototype a reality, but they won't because they are now looking after three other projects that are being funded by our subs.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#2333 - 2013-10-01 14:41:05 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:

This game isn't for you, and it never will be. Other games aren't for me, and never will be, but I don't hang around the forums suggesting they should completely alter the fundamentals of the game.


Do humor me by telling how adding avatar gameplay would alter fundamentals of EVE gameplay in any way? Provided it is entirely optional to engage in, and I seriously doubt that after Incarna it would be ever forced on people again.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#2334 - 2013-10-01 14:54:15 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:

This game isn't for you, and it never will be. Other games aren't for me, and never will be, but I don't hang around the forums suggesting they should completely alter the fundamentals of the game.


Do humor me by telling how adding avatar gameplay would alter fundamentals of EVE gameplay in any way? Provided it is entirely optional to engage in, and I seriously doubt that after Incarna it would be ever forced on people again.


I was actually referring to the quotee in particular.

I've made my, what I would consider "centrist", views on WiS known multiple times. I have no problem with anything that CCP decides to add to their game, given that it is among the best available uses of limited resources.

My only "problem" actually lies with the ridiculous arguments of rabid WiS proponents, and by "problem" I mean the reason I enjoy coming to this thread and mocking people. However, I have responded seriously to the few intelligent and compelling arguments that do occasionally crop up here, as I do think WiS is an important and compelling issue.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Lilliana Stelles
#2335 - 2013-10-01 14:57:31 UTC
Does news ever occur in this thread anymore or is it just ongoing circular arguments?

Not a forum alt. 
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2336 - 2013-10-01 15:01:38 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Does news ever occur in this thread anymore or is it just ongoing circular arguments?


Step up and claim your prize.

It is however devolving into a SC > EVE circle-jerk thread.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#2337 - 2013-10-01 15:03:03 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Does news ever occur in this thread anymore or is it just ongoing circular arguments?


No, because there is no WiS news, because it is dead for the foreseeable future.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2338 - 2013-10-01 15:43:10 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Does news ever occur in this thread anymore or is it just ongoing circular arguments?


There were some Dev posts about 20 pages back that are pretty recent. Unfortunately, they don't add anything of value except to say what they 'had' planned. Nothing on their plans to actually implement anything.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2339 - 2013-10-01 16:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Does news ever occur in this thread anymore or is it just ongoing circular arguments?


There is no news about WIS (because WIS in no longer in development) so its ongoiing circular arguments over and over again, time to get over it people.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2340 - 2013-10-01 16:06:57 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Does news ever occur in this thread anymore or is it just ongoing circular arguments?


There is no news about WIS (because WIS in no more in development) so its ongoiing circular arguments over and over again, time to get over it people.


To be fair the argument's aren't circular. They all more or less have full and natural conclusions. The people doing the arguing are circular, if you catch my drift.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf