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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

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Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2301 - 2013-10-01 02:16:55 UTC
Crasniya wrote:
Funny thing: Look where Second Life is on there. And that's with like... no "meaningful gameplay" whatsoever. And every game on the chart with over a million subs... has at least something avatar gameplay related.


You mean games that were designed from the ground up as avatar-based games?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#2302 - 2013-10-01 03:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Rhes wrote:

what do you think made them change direction?


The fear of losing subscribers which in my opinion was overrated. The possible gains from keeping the Carbon team working on avatar gameplay would have been reaped and EVE would probably be at a better position right now.
But as we discussed before, the cause for EVE's stagnation was not only the firing of the Carbon team, but also Dusts and Valkyries and the resources put on them instead of EVE.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#2303 - 2013-10-01 04:41:40 UTC
If CCP are unable to create an engine that is unable to render more than one player in a room then they should close now. Every other game can manage it, except CCP apparently.

Guess we have more faith than the trolls in CCPs ability.
Luc Chastot
#2304 - 2013-10-01 05:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Luc Chastot
Crasniya wrote:
Rhes wrote:
They don't have the engine for avatar gameplay already in place. The engine developed for Incarna can't even support more than one person in a room.


You have no evidence for this. The fact they haven't done it is not proof they can't.

You've been playing for longer than I, so you should know Rhes is, in fact, correct. When they separated the dev teams behind Incarna and WoD, Incarna development stagnated so WoD could use a wholly different tech that was not compatible with EVE.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Lateris
#2305 - 2013-10-01 05:25:35 UTC
We have all our answers and solutions in the lore. Twisted /end

0/
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2306 - 2013-10-01 06:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Funny Facts (in USD) -updated to include 2008 & 2009:

CCP game revenue 2008: 41,668,893
CCP game revenue 2009: 51,782,424
CCP game revenue 2010: 57,428,530
CCP game revenue 2011: 63,323,357
CCP game revenue 2012: 64,436,996

CCP marketing expense 2008: (8,524,124)
CCP marketing expense 2009: (9,410,916)
CCP marketing expense 2010: (9,769,965)
CCP marketing expense 2010: (9,769,965)
CCP marketing expense 2011: (9,912,335)
CCP marketing expense 2012: (12,567,302)

CCP research and development expense 2008: (7,868,828)
CCP research and development expense 2009: (9,342,375)
CCP research and development expense 2010: (11,127,383)
CCP research and development expense 2011: (12,972,482)
CCP research and development expense 2012: (16,513,666)

CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2008: 5,532,343
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2009: 6,020,872
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2010: 5,482,264
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2011: 8,817,262
CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2012: 4,597,556

2013 january-june trends vs 2012 january-june:

Game revenue UP by 4.3 million USD
Marketing expense UP by 1.9 million USD
Research and development UP by 4.4 million USD

I love how in 2010-2011, the time when Incarna was coming, game revenue increased by 5.9 million USD, more than 10% rise. How it barely has stabilized after Incarna was trashed, despite marketing has swallowed almost 3 million dollars more in 2012 alone (and marketing expense keeps skyrocketing in 2013).

And above all, the thing I totally and completely love, it's development expense.

+1 million during Incarnageddon (2011)
+3 million after Incarnageddon (2012)
+4.5 million in the first six months of this year alone

Is there a game near you that looks like it's got 8.5 million dollars spent in additional development expense in the last 3 years? Cool


PS: sources!

http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47002/ccp%202012%20consolidated%20financial%20statements.pdf

http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47381/ccp%20financial%20statements%20june%2030%202013.pdf

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2307 - 2013-10-01 07:20:50 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Cypherdog wrote:
Didn't you watch the Incarna development videos?


Compare what was in those videos to what was actually released.


Exactly, dumb ass. We never got any of that.


So we had two years of wasted development time and we got a room with a couch and a microtransaction store and you want them to waste even *more* time on it? I just want to be clear that that is really what you are advocating for.


My God it's worse than I thought.

Two years... on CARBON. The thing that gave us V3, TiDi, and all the big changes since such as the new FW and Wardec systems. That's what they spend two years on.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2308 - 2013-10-01 08:41:20 UTC
Rhes wrote:
raven666wings wrote:
Rhes wrote:

Either way there still aren't enough to make CCP change the course of the game again. If subscriptions weren't going up every quarter you'd have an argument but they are so you don't.


Make CCP change the couse of the game??? What are we now? Dellusional fanbois who think they own the game and force CCP to fire a whole dev team so they stop whining? Nope, we're all adults here


Yes, we changed the course of the game when thousands of people canceled their subscriptions after Incarna was released. You guys keep bleating about the "total sci-fi emulator" that CCP was preparing in the years leading up to WiS being released...what do you think made them change direction?


20,000 sheep following a drunk megalomaniac made CCP change direction for the worse ... gee you must be proud of yourselves.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#2309 - 2013-10-01 08:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Guys. Click on the character name, select "Hide posts." Easier for everyone's sanity. I would suggest using this magic trick with Vaju Enki and Rhes for a start.

I have nothing against arguing with reasonable people but I have zero interest in talking with someone who keeps calling others pedophiles and a retards on regular basis.
Jadiss
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
#2310 - 2013-10-01 09:00:58 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Cypherdog wrote:
Didn't you watch the Incarna development videos?


Compare what was in those videos to what was actually released.


Exactly, dumb ass. We never got any of that.


So we had two years of wasted development time and we got a room with a couch and a microtransaction store and you want them to waste even *more* time on it? I just want to be clear that that is really what you are advocating for.


My God it's worse than I thought.

Two years... on CARBON. The thing that gave us V3, TiDi, and all the big changes since such as the new FW and Wardec systems. That's what they spend two years on.



Yeah 2 years of percious dev time gone for nothing...

fanfest 2011

Oh wait... there seems to be a bit more than just "room with a couch and a microtransaction"...
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2311 - 2013-10-01 09:43:13 UTC
I've said it somewhere before, but I don't know if I've said it in this thread...

Why not kill two birds with one stone and link WiS and Valkyrie to make Flying In Stations?

You go through your door and enter a ship. The ship gets to fly around and do missions or PvP in stations.

I like what I've seen for Valkyrie but... we already have flying in space in Eve. Why not make it something different?
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#2312 - 2013-10-01 10:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
> CCP research and development expense 2012: (16,513,666)

If these numbers are correct then CCP has extremely inefficient dev team: 16 millions is 80% of StarCitizen's budget ($21mil) and this sum in development should bring a bit more than just a couple mini-games and handful of new modules per year. Roberts is able to create whole new game with comparable sum - not to mention total cost of development of Dark Age of Camelot was $2.5mil.

P.S. Thread is heated up and got like 10+ pages during a week. Either interest to WiS raised - or discontent with CCP and EVE updates.

P.P.S. New complicated ships cost ~50k to develop each (info from CIG / SC), modules maybe $5k each (more like $500 - couple days of work), rebalance / tiercide / certificates - maybe 100k each. Whole Rubicon cost seems to be under 500k (or a million at best) - considering company is gathering $60+ millions from subscriptions per year it's just 1-2% of income to "expand" the game. Pathetic.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#2313 - 2013-10-01 10:28:36 UTC
I went ahead and unsubscribed, my account will expire in December.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2314 - 2013-10-01 10:35:22 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
I went ahead and unsubscribed, my account will expire in December.

I'll follow next March, wenn Elite Dangeous hits... I doubt that CCP will do anything to change my mind until then.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2315 - 2013-10-01 12:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Flamespar wrote:
I went ahead and unsubscribed, my account will expire in December.


I am still waiting for more details of the upcoming expansion before I unsub. As long as what we have seen so far is less than half of the total, I will hang around. But I have a sneaking suspicion that what we have seen is most of what we will get. If that's the case then -2 accounts.

Lipbite wrote:

P.S. Thread is heated up and got like 10+ pages during a week. Either interest to WiS raised - or discontent with CCP and EVE updates.


I'm pretty sure, most of the new posts are from Rhes' trolling. That said, I have seen a lot of new faces in this thread recently.

Luc Chastot wrote:
Crasniya wrote:
Rhes wrote:
They don't have the engine for avatar gameplay already in place. The engine developed for Incarna can't even support more than one person in a room.


You have no evidence for this. The fact they haven't done it is not proof they can't.

You've been playing for longer than I, so you should know Rhes is, in fact, correct. When they separated the dev teams behind Incarna and WoD, Incarna development stagnated so WoD could use a wholly different tech that was not compatible with EVE.


This, is actually a genuine concern. That said, CCP are using a "fork" of CARBON for WoD, not a completely new engine. It is, at the end of the day, still the CARBON engine. Any speculation that they did that because multi-avatar environments are a problem is just that, speculation. It means that content will be difficult to port from WoD to Eve, but not impossible. So, yes Rhes made a point he hasn't made before, and it is a concern (congrats to him for actually contributing to the thread for a change), but it wouldn't be a massive problem if CCP actually put their mind to it (Take it from a developer).

Link below from when somebody spotted the forked CARBON development.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2211176#post2211176

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2316 - 2013-10-01 12:25:55 UTC
Quote:
I absolutely love how in 2010-2011, the time when Incarna was coming, game revenue increased by 5.9 million USD

My moneys!

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2317 - 2013-10-01 12:28:15 UTC
..I've read some of the Star Citizen devblogs. I gather that they have procured approximately 20m dollars for their game development.

Things are not looking good.

Prediction: SC will fall on its face. 6 months in - become Freemium. 1.5 years in - close the servers and pocket some cash.

Then where will all you Dancing Space Wizzards go?

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
RAW23
#2318 - 2013-10-01 12:37:32 UTC
raven666wings wrote:


The fear of losing subscribers which in my opinion was overrated.


It wasn't a fear. They simply did lose many subscribers, as has been pretty well documented, and they reacted to the fact that their business was going to have very great trouble operating on a model that assumed annual growth when, in fact, it was moving in the opposite direction. They righted the ship and are now pretty much back to where they were before they started shedding customers (maybe even a little ahead now). Had they not taken the drastic action that they did they would have been in HUGE financial trouble as they would have lost many more players.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2319 - 2013-10-01 12:38:34 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
..I've read some of the Star Citizen devblogs. I gather that they have procured approximately 20m dollars for their game development.

Things are not looking good.

Prediction: SC will fall on its face. 6 months in - become Freemium. 1.5 years in - close the servers and pocket some cash.

Then where will all you Dancing Space Wizzards go?



Obvious troll. Star Citizen is now the single most successful kickstarter EVER. In an interview Chris Roberts stated that he had corporate sponsors ready to provide him with $10 million if the kickstarter campaign drew in $2 to $3 m. When they hit $10m just from the public he told the corporate sponsors they were not needed anymore. He turned down $10m (that would have come with corporate overview of his project) because the fans keep giving and you say things are not looking good? Ye keep on dreaming about your fascination with wizards.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#2320 - 2013-10-01 12:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
RAW23 wrote:
raven666wings wrote:


The fear of losing subscribers which in my opinion was overrated.


It wasn't a fear. They simply did lose many subscribers, as has been pretty well documented, and they reacted to the fact that their business was going to have very great trouble operating on a model that assumed annual growth when, in fact, it was moving in the opposite direction. They righted the ship and are now pretty much back to where they were before they started shedding customers (maybe even a little ahead now). Had they not taken the drastic action that they did they would have been in HUGE financial trouble as they would have lost many more players.


And although the above is true, I think the point is that the lost subs were nothing to do with CCP's vision of WiS. They lost subs because of a myriad of other mistakes they made running up to and around the time of release of Incarna.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf