These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1861 - 2013-09-21 00:01:30 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".


Based on the complete failure of DUST and the fact that WoD is still vaporware do you honestly believe CCP is capable of adding meaningful WiS to Eve? And even if, by some miracle, they were would it worth having them neglect spaceship content again to appease a small group of people who can't live without it?


about Dust however its doomed to die or some miracle need to be happening to keep that game alive. http://crossingzebras.com/2013/06/21/the-tragedy-of-dust-514/

But thats apart from WiS.


Not really. If CCP isn't able to create a compelling avatar based game why would you think they could add meaningful avatar based gameplay to Eve?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1862 - 2013-09-21 00:03:57 UTC
Rhes wrote:

And if you think I'm in the minority of players you might want to scroll up and look at the graph again. Or just read back through this thread...there are a few dozen people at most who just can't accept that Eve doesn't need emotes or dance parties to be a great game.


You really are the king of irrelevant comments. Firstly, I have gone through this thread and I'm sad enough to have actually counted the different unique posters and whether they are pro or con and the cons lose out more than two to one. As for the graph, it has nothing to do with the argument as I have already explained and you seem to have accepted until this last comment. I'm going to sleep. Goodnight.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1863 - 2013-09-21 00:08:23 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Firstly, I have gone through this thread and I'm sad enough to have actually counted the different unique posters and whether they are pro or con


lol...sure you did

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1864 - 2013-09-21 00:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
Rhes wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
The assertion that "WiS" cause Incarnageddon, is just rubbish. Not least of all because we never got "WiS".


Based on the complete failure of DUST and the fact that WoD is still vaporware do you honestly believe CCP is capable of adding meaningful WiS to Eve? And even if, by some miracle, they were would it worth having them neglect spaceship content again to appease a small group of people who can't live without it?


about Dust however its doomed to die or some miracle need to be happening to keep that game alive. http://crossingzebras.com/2013/06/21/the-tragedy-of-dust-514/

But thats apart from WiS.


Not really. If CCP isn't able to create a compelling avatar based game why would you think they could add meaningful avatar based gameplay to Eve?


The avatar game play is not needing you will not do everything in eve? do you. If you do everything you will not do it when you don`t like it. See it like a small extra without changing the game play. You don`t want to play it fine. Its not needing.

The content the can make is perhaps just to make a interaction between other people only for now. Just for the lols. The rest is a open option for in the future.
Sir Jack Falstaff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1865 - 2013-09-21 00:28:47 UTC
The problem, Rhes, with your plan of staying the course and avoiding innovation is that it works great until suddenly, it doesn't. You are correct: subs are the best measure of the company's health, although active users is a very important measure of engagement. You're correct, right now, CCP doesn't need to do anything innovative: subs are strong, engagement is strong. They don't need to do anything. This is the Microsoft 2007 strategy. Windows and Office reign supreme. Who is going to use a phone without a keyboard except a bunch of carebear fools, right?

Unwillingness to change is the recipe for disruptive innovation. The only way a competitor steals the space MMORPG crown from Eve is if Eve lets them. No one, no one, is suggesting that Eve move from its core competency, which is community driven spaceship flying. But Eve needs to improve in areas where it is weak: PvE and customization. That's exactly the weaknesses that avatar play addresses, and creates excitement about the game in the process.

You're suggesting putting the game on autopilot. We know what happens when you do that, and the real world is far less forgiving than Eve. If a disruptive competitor points Eve as it slow boats to a gate, CCP doesn't get to wake up in a new clone.

Banish plump Jack, and banish all the world.
Cade Windstalker
#1866 - 2013-09-21 00:48:45 UTC
Rhes wrote:
They also disbanded Team Avatar. That should tell you everything you need to know.


Team Avatar was brought together for a prototype and the team was disbanded when the prototype was finished and they decided to put further WiS content on hold.

There is nothing we've seen that says WiS content is gone for good.

Rhes wrote:
Maybe not but CCP's focus on fixing spaceships has been very successful considering that subscriptions go up every quarter. As we've already discussed in this thread, the only times subs dropped substantially was when WiS went live.


Which had more to do with concerns over Pay 2 Win and several miscommunications between CCP and the player-base and WiS being released as a half-baked feature, not with people not having interest in WiS content.

Rhes wrote:
That graph illustrates perfectly why CCP should stay out of the WiS business. There's some additional analysis here: http://mmodata.blogspot.com/2013/08/version-40-thoughts-and-comments.html

Here's the important part:

Quote:
Talking about EVE Online, that is still the example of how to do things in the post - WoW era. While CCP thought they were becoming the dinosaur of the industry, and therefore had to implement a cash shop with micro transactions. They realized their mistakes in time ( after their customers reminded them where their loyalty must lie Riots-in-eve-against-microtransactions ). And turned around and got back on track making EVE Online a better game.

CCP is being rewarded now, with a PCU ( peak concurrent users ) of over 65.000 and over 500.000 monthly playing subscribers and a continued growth every year since release, now more than 10 years ago.

At this moment EVE Online is the second biggest subscription based MMORPG in the west, and the only subscription based MMORPG that is still growing in the west and probably in the world.


Which says absolutely nothing about WiS further reinforcing my point.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1867 - 2013-09-21 01:03:06 UTC
Sir Jack Falstaff wrote:
The problem, Rhes, with your plan of staying the course and avoiding innovation is that it works great until suddenly, it doesn't. You are correct: subs are the best measure of the company's health, although active users is a very important measure of engagement. You're correct, right now, CCP doesn't need to do anything innovative: subs are strong, engagement is strong. They don't need to do anything. This is the Microsoft 2007 strategy. Windows and Office reign supreme. Who is going to use a phone without a keyboard except a bunch of carebear fools, right?

Unwillingness to change is the recipe for disruptive innovation. The only way a competitor steals the space MMORPG crown from Eve is if Eve lets them. No one, no one, is suggesting that Eve move from its core competency, which is community driven spaceship flying. But Eve needs to improve in areas where it is weak: PvE and customization. That's exactly the weaknesses that avatar play addresses, and creates excitement about the game in the process.

You're suggesting putting the game on autopilot. We know what happens when you do that, and the real world is far less forgiving than Eve. If a disruptive competitor points Eve as it slow boats to a gate, CCP doesn't get to wake up in a new clone.


I'm not asking for CCP to stop expanding Eve or put it on autopilot. What I hope they don't do is try to expand it in a way that they tried once before and it almost killed the game.

The problem with space Barbie enthusiasts is they can't see any other way for Eve to expand other than WiS and that's just narrowminded.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1868 - 2013-09-21 01:06:18 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Which says absolutely nothing about WiS further reinforcing my point.


It's not worded very well but as we've already established (several times) in this thread it was the fact that Eve was ignored for two years while WiS/microtransactions were being worked on that caused people to riot. If the captains quarters had just magically appeared one day nobody would have cared much but after going two years with broken or unfinished Eve content it was insulting to log in and see a room with a couch. If that was all they could come up with in two years then they should forget about WiS and just focus on what they are good at.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1869 - 2013-09-21 01:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
Rhes wrote:
Sir Jack Falstaff wrote:
The problem, Rhes, with your plan of staying the course and avoiding innovation is that it works great until suddenly, it doesn't. You are correct: subs are the best measure of the company's health, although active users is a very important measure of engagement. You're correct, right now, CCP doesn't need to do anything innovative: subs are strong, engagement is strong. They don't need to do anything. This is the Microsoft 2007 strategy. Windows and Office reign supreme. Who is going to use a phone without a keyboard except a bunch of carebear fools, right?

Unwillingness to change is the recipe for disruptive innovation. The only way a competitor steals the space MMORPG crown from Eve is if Eve lets them. No one, no one, is suggesting that Eve move from its core competency, which is community driven spaceship flying. But Eve needs to improve in areas where it is weak: PvE and customization. That's exactly the weaknesses that avatar play addresses, and creates excitement about the game in the process.

You're suggesting putting the game on autopilot. We know what happens when you do that, and the real world is far less forgiving than Eve. If a disruptive competitor points Eve as it slow boats to a gate, CCP doesn't get to wake up in a new clone.


I'm not asking for CCP to stop expanding Eve or put it on autopilot. What I hope they don't do is try to expand it in a way that they tried once before and it almost killed the game.

The problem with space Barbie enthusiasts is they can't see any other way for Eve to expand other than WiS and that's just narrowminded.


Thats not.. Like i say that before the put 1 team in the WiS "avatar" thats what 10 man? The rest still focus the main eve part new ships balance here and there put some tweaks and so on. Thats like 3/4 of there people. So you think the avatar game play will remove spaceships because of a avatar walking to a other player is a game breaking technology in eve or what? its a interaction not a game changing. You don`t want to use you`re barbie fine no one will care
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1870 - 2013-09-21 01:14:04 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Thats not.. Like i say that before the put 1 team in the WiS "avatar" thats what 10 man? The rest still focus the main eve part new ships balance here and there put some tweaks and so on. Thats like 3/4 of there people. So you think the avatar game play will remove spaceships because of a avatar walking to a other player is a game breaking technology in eve or what? its a interaction not a game changing. You don`t want to use you`re barbie fine no one will care


Any resource (whether it's money or manpower) they put into WiS is a resource that's not spent on real Eve gameplay.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1871 - 2013-09-21 01:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
Rhes wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
Thats not.. Like i say that before the put 1 team in the WiS "avatar" thats what 10 man? The rest still focus the main eve part new ships balance here and there put some tweaks and so on. Thats like 3/4 of there people. So you think the avatar game play will remove spaceships because of a avatar walking to a other player is a game breaking technology in eve or what? its a interaction not a game changing. You don`t want to use you`re barbie fine no one will care


Any resource (whether it's money or manpower) they put into WiS is a resource that's not spent on real Eve gameplay.


Also not true because thats a different team and not part of the regular eve crew. So the hired to do WiS without losing any real ccp member. So the have 5/4 crew. So there is no worry`s about losing resource. The gain resource. And the best part is its not the team on Iceland but in japan a other ccp partner Lol
Cade Windstalker
#1872 - 2013-09-21 01:28:40 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
The subs... or better, active players, because I don't think most people unsub right away (PLEX etc.)... are going down 'cause CCP hasn't added anything intresting since Retribution. The new exploration mechanics are a nice to have, but thruth be told, EVE never was a great exploration game... the universe is just too boring for that... and hacking minigames/loot spraying wracks? Sorry, but that's no content... not when compared to Retribution, or any other expansion, for that matter.

The next expansion better bring something really fresh/new/good... not necessarily WiS, but something equally imagniative... or active players will continue to drop, until we are where EVE has been after Incarna... I'm not beeing pessimistic here, only realistic... the novelty of the Retribution changes has worn of, that's obvious fact.


Actually active players have been going up overall. The game has, historically, shown a drop in player activity going into winter every year going back several years as people go back to school and money gets tighter going into winter.

Rhes wrote:
It's not worded very well but as we've already established (several times) in this thread it was the fact that Eve was ignored for two years while WiS/microtransactions were being worked on that caused people to riot. If the captains quarters had just magically appeared one day nobody would have cared much but after going two years with broken or unfinished Eve content it was insulting to log in and see a room with a couch. If that was all they could come up with in two years then they should forget about WiS and just focus on what they are good at.


So far there's been no evidence to support this and anyone who knows anything about game development knows this is false. In the time WiS was in development Eve had several very good expansions. Yes, they released an incomplete feature that was rather disappointing compared to the hype, but that's a problem with over-hyping the feature and then releasing it in an incomplete state. Yes, there were some long-standing issues with in-space features but those are being addressed. Once they've finished with updating POSes, Sov, and ship balancing we'll likely see a return to WiS content.
Cade Windstalker
#1873 - 2013-09-21 01:30:15 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Any resource (whether it's money or manpower) they put into WiS is a resource that's not spent on real Eve gameplay.


Except that WiS is part of "real Eve gameplay" Straight

Just because you, personally, don't like it doesn't make it any less a valid part of the game.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1874 - 2013-09-21 01:30:20 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
Thats not.. Like i say that before the put 1 team in the WiS "avatar" thats what 10 man? The rest still focus the main eve part new ships balance here and there put some tweaks and so on. Thats like 3/4 of there people. So you think the avatar game play will remove spaceships because of a avatar walking to a other player is a game breaking technology in eve or what? its a interaction not a game changing. You don`t want to use you`re barbie fine no one will care


Any resource (whether it's money or manpower) they put into WiS is a resource that's not spent on real Eve gameplay.


Also not true because thats a different team and not part of the regular eve crew. So the hired to do WiS without losing any real ccp member. So the have 5/4 crew. So there is no worry`s about losing resource. The gain resource. And the best part is its not the team on Iceland but in japan a other ccp partner Lol


So who is paying this "different team" that's going to do WiS?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1875 - 2013-09-21 01:30:48 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Any resource (whether it's money or manpower) they put into WiS is a resource that's not spent on real Eve gameplay.


Except that WiS is part of "real Eve gameplay" Straight

Just because you, personally, don't like it doesn't make it any less a valid part of the game.


Nope. Eve is spaceships and the industry that supports them.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1876 - 2013-09-21 01:33:07 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Yes, there were some long-standing issues with in-space features but those are being addressed.


Exactly my point. They are being fixed because CCP stopped with the WiS nonsense and promised to focus on spaceships.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Cade Windstalker
#1877 - 2013-09-21 01:37:31 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Nope. Eve is spaceships and the industry that supports them.


In your opinion. Your opinion is not the only valid one.

Plus WiS content can very much support the in-space content. The entire Team Avatar prototype was exploring wrecks and sounded really awesome.

Rhes wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Yes, there were some long-standing issues with in-space features but those are being addressed.


Exactly my point. They are being fixed because CCP stopped with the WiS nonsense and promised to focus on spaceships.


Way to completely take one line out of context. Yeah, no, they shelved WiS, they didn't abandon it. Again, if that makes you upset then I suggest you take your own advice and un-sub and tell them why in the reasons section.
Sir Jack Falstaff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1878 - 2013-09-21 01:38:22 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Which says absolutely nothing about WiS further reinforcing my point.


It's not worded very well but as we've already established (several times) in this thread it was the fact that Eve was ignored for two years while WiS/microtransactions were being worked on that caused people to riot. If the captains quarters had just magically appeared one day nobody would have cared much but after going two years with broken or unfinished Eve content it was insulting to log in and see a room with a couch. If that was all they could come up with in two years then they should forget about WiS and just focus on what they are good at.

Finally, something cogent and intelligent and not insults about barbies. More like this please. I finally, after pages and pages of back and forth, understand where you're coming from.

Is your argument then, that you feel CCP is not capable of implementing WiS in a professional and worthy manner? Then make that argument. It's a better argument than insults and deliberately conflating the microtransactions fiasco with the WiS implementation. You're right. The CQ is half assed. You'll get no argument from me on that one.

If your argument is that CCP can't do avatar play right, then make that argument. It's your best one so far.

Banish plump Jack, and banish all the world.
Cade Windstalker
#1879 - 2013-09-21 01:40:34 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
Also not true because thats a different team and not part of the regular eve crew. So the hired to do WiS without losing any real ccp member. So the have 5/4 crew. So there is no worry`s about losing resource. The gain resource. And the best part is its not the team on Iceland but in japan a other ccp partner Lol


So who is paying this "different team" that's going to do WiS?


Also not how development works. If they feel that WiS will make the game more successful then they can afford to budget in an entirely new team for that since it will bring in more subs. Throwing more teams at a narrow feature set has diminishing returns since you can only have so many people working on a specific feature before they start stepping on each-other's toes.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1880 - 2013-09-21 01:45:22 UTC
Sir Jack Falstaff wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Which says absolutely nothing about WiS further reinforcing my point.


It's not worded very well but as we've already established (several times) in this thread it was the fact that Eve was ignored for two years while WiS/microtransactions were being worked on that caused people to riot. If the captains quarters had just magically appeared one day nobody would have cared much but after going two years with broken or unfinished Eve content it was insulting to log in and see a room with a couch. If that was all they could come up with in two years then they should forget about WiS and just focus on what they are good at.

Finally, something cogent and intelligent and not insults about barbies. More like this please. I finally, after pages and pages of back and forth, understand where you're coming from.

Is your argument then, that you feel CCP is not capable of implementing WiS in a professional and worthy manner? Then make that argument. It's a better argument than insults and deliberately conflating the microtransactions fiasco with the WiS implementation. You're right. The CQ is half assed. You'll get no argument from me on that one.

If your argument is that CCP can't do avatar play right, then make that argument. It's your best one so far.


I've made the argument several times. Just look at the state of CCP's two avatar based games: DUST is a failure and WoD is vaporware.

The problem is that despite that evidence there is a small group of Eve players who insist that CCP ignore history and ignore their track record and waste more time and money on game mechanics that aren't going to improve Eve's core gameplay. Gameplay that has continued to bring new subscribers to the game steadily since they promised to refocus their efforts to improve it.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise