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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Cade Windstalker
#2601 - 2013-09-03 13:41:08 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
stuff


Your logic here seems to be that since this ship has always been a kiting ship and it still has it's speed but has gained an active tank bonus... it's somehow no longer viable as a kiting ship? >.>

Not sure where this logic comes from.
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#2602 - 2013-09-03 14:05:50 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

The ship rebalance was about... rebalancing. Not indiscriminate buffing.

Same thing was said about the Rifter and its **** now, popularity does not indicate effectiveness.

What balance? The balance word makes no sense for what we have now. It's a re-shuffle based on popularity and past hull issues, don't get me wrong, it seems that it was obvious that something had to be made to the cerberus and to the diemost per example. But balance is the word? You really believe in that?
Balanced performance? How the hell you have balance when the roles differ so much from ship to ship?
Popularity balance? Maybe in the short term, I doubt it in 1 year when they finally see which ships are at the top and which are at the bottom, and even then, some hulls thanks to their obvious "decade iconic status' will still get used a lot despite not being good at all.
Balance... pfffff.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2603 - 2013-09-03 14:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
stuff


Your logic here seems to be that since this ship has always been a kiting ship and it still has it's speed but has gained an active tank bonus... it's somehow no longer viable as a kiting ship? >.>

Not sure where this logic comes from.


Its not been a good kiting ship for a long time, its been mediocre, and with all the T1 buffs + this incoming Hac buff its going to become simply not worth flying, the rest has Eve has moved up, giving the Vaga a **** bonus doesn't help it compete.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#2604 - 2013-09-04 00:25:33 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

OK, I don't want to fly a vagabond directly towards 3 tornados, but frankly I don't want to fly a talos towards them either!


The probelm with ABCs is that they osbsolete all sniper HACs right off the bat. Since at range tank is irrelevant, and speed is less important that time to warp, and ALL of that is second to ALPHA, ALPHA, ALPHA, the Tornado rules supreme over the Muninn and all other sniper HACs.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Cade Windstalker
#2605 - 2013-09-04 00:45:58 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
The probelm with ABCs is that they osbsolete all sniper HACs right off the bat. Since at range tank is irrelevant, and speed is less important that time to warp, and ALL of that is second to ALPHA, ALPHA, ALPHA, the Tornado rules supreme over the Muninn and all other sniper HACs.


Unless, you know, I can snipe AND tank, in which case your alpha doesn't do much when it takes more of your gang to kill one of mine than it takes us to kill one of you, or worse I survive your alpha-strike and you gain nothing.

Plus the Muninn has better tracking, better speed, and better align, and after taking resists into account better damage as well. It loses in cost but it's also more effective and more versatile.

Oh and that's just the Muninn, some of the others don't even need to worry about Tornado alpha because they can still do good DPS when a Tornado's guns feel like they're set to "Tickle-Me Elmo".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2606 - 2013-09-04 01:17:22 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

OK, I don't want to fly a vagabond directly towards 3 tornados, but frankly I don't want to fly a talos towards them either!


The probelm with ABCs is that they osbsolete all sniper HACs right off the bat. Since at range tank is irrelevant, and speed is less important that time to warp, and ALL of that is second to ALPHA, ALPHA, ALPHA, the Tornado rules supreme over the Muninn and all other sniper HACs.


I think the problem is with ABCs themselves.

I came back to eve a few months ago after a 6 month break. I jumped into a blaster talos and warped to a wormhole where I encountered a myrm. I opened up on him and annihilated him. He was dual rep. I just had a shield extender.

It was a nice killmail on my first day back, but it struck me as very wrong that this could happen. The overwhelming firepower of the talos had essentially made a local rep BC obsolete.

My corp uses ABCs to run c3 sites, and pretty much whenever anything needs to be blapped, it's easy to reach for an ABC.

I'm not sure they were a good idea to be honest, they seem a little OP. I feel that if you want battleship damage application you should be made to choose a battleship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2607 - 2013-09-04 07:37:04 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

OK, I don't want to fly a vagabond directly towards 3 tornados, but frankly I don't want to fly a talos towards them either!


The probelm with ABCs is that they osbsolete all sniper HACs right off the bat. Since at range tank is irrelevant, and speed is less important that time to warp, and ALL of that is second to ALPHA, ALPHA, ALPHA, the Tornado rules supreme over the Muninn and all other sniper HACs.


"At range tank is irrelevant"

Derp comment of 2013 tbh.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2608 - 2013-09-05 12:21:36 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Vaga speed advantage over other hacs is uncalled for with its new tankier outlook.

No problem with it being fastest HAc but 240 would seem more appropriate than the 30% faster than nearest rival it currently has.

Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.

You mena a shield tank bonus on a ship with 4 mids, that basically cannot field anythign resemblign a REAL tank?

Get lost... or start to think better on your statements.


Vagabond will still have a PATHETIC tank! It got pingeonholed into a single viable fit. Sad...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2609 - 2013-09-05 16:28:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Vaga speed advantage over other hacs is uncalled for with its new tankier outlook.

No problem with it being fastest HAc but 240 would seem more appropriate than the 30% faster than nearest rival it currently has.

Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.

You mena a shield tank bonus on a ship with 4 mids, that basically cannot field anythign resemblign a REAL tank?

Get lost... or start to think better on your statements.


Vagabond will still have a PATHETIC tank! It got pingeonholed into a single viable fit. Sad...


The Vaga's tank is not a tank. It's an emergency repair option. Fit a large ASB with navy 150s. You get more shield hitpoints from that than with the old way of fitting a shield extender.

The vaga's tank is speed and sig radius. If you want to fly in close and brawl you need a deimos.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2610 - 2013-09-05 22:59:15 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Vaga speed advantage over other hacs is uncalled for with its new tankier outlook.

No problem with it being fastest HAc but 240 would seem more appropriate than the 30% faster than nearest rival it currently has.

Vaga now has 5 effective bonuses.

You mena a shield tank bonus on a ship with 4 mids, that basically cannot field anythign resemblign a REAL tank?

Get lost... or start to think better on your statements.


Vagabond will still have a PATHETIC tank! It got pingeonholed into a single viable fit. Sad...


The Vaga's tank is not a tank. It's an emergency repair option. Fit a large ASB with navy 150s. You get more shield hitpoints from that than with the old way of fitting a shield extender.

The vaga's tank is speed and sig radius. If you want to fly in close and brawl you need a deimos.


Yeah well that would work if the Vaga could actually apply damage at any reasonable range.

Now its just a not very good kiter that's been pidgeonholed into a vaguely anti-nano brawling role.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2611 - 2013-09-06 00:27:49 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Now its just a not very good kiter that's been pidgeonholed into a vaguely anti-nano brawling role.


You do know that if you fit a capacitor control rig, it can run its MWD, warp disruptor and invulnerability field all day long?

It can travel 30% faster than any hull it's likely to come up against and can therefore stay at any range it wants to while scoring zero-transveral hits on its target. Anything that's faster than the vaga can be taken apart by its drones, or the heavy neut you can fit quite easily in the utility high.

That's the very definition of "good kiting ship" isn't it?

I fail to see how the new vaga is worse than the pre-1.1 version in any way whatsoever. It's almost better than a cynabal.

Now one thing that has changed is that some HACs have gained the ability to apply damage at range. This is new. And this means that there is at last some kind of counter to a kiting ship... other than another kiting ship or a huginn.

Some things got better for non-vagas. Vagas didn't get worse.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2612 - 2013-09-06 07:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Basically your argument is if it can kite forever its good.

If I made a hauler that could kite at 4k/s for ever, it still wouldn't be a very good pvp ship.

Simply going fast is not useful, you need to be able to do decent damage at range to kill the target relatively quickly, right now the pitiful ~300 DPS with Warriors that the Vaga applies at 25 is outshadowed by Rail Deimos, HAM Cerb, RLML Cerb and Pulse Zealots, hell even the Pulse NOmen performs significantly better, Im not talking about it being the new Talos here, Im talking about applying 300 Pure Gun DPS out to 25.

If you think the Vaga is a good kiter in its current state you have not flown it enough, its vastly outshadowed by every other HAC and the massive buff to T1 and faction cruisers means it doesn't even fair that well against them, there is now no reason to fly it over another option.

They should just drop this pitiful Shield Boost bonus and give it another range bonus in a similar fashion to the Cerb, let it be the low tank kiter it was supposed to be, let the Cyna fill the Role as it does now of the Brawl/Kite mix with its better EHP and Dual Prop.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2613 - 2013-09-06 08:35:18 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Basically your argument is if it can kite forever its good.

If I made a hauler that could kite at 4k/s for ever, it still wouldn't be a very good pvp ship.

Simply going fast is not useful, you need to be able to do decent damage at range to kill the target relatively quickly, right now the pitiful ~300 DPS with Warriors that the Vaga applies at 25 is outshadowed by Rail Deimos, HAM Cerb, RLML Cerb and Pulse Zealots, hell even the Pulse NOmen performs significantly better, Im not talking about it being the new Talos here, Im talking about applying 300 Pure Gun DPS out to 25.

If you think the Vaga is a good kiter in its current state you have not flown it enough, its vastly outshadowed by every other HAC and the massive buff to T1 and faction cruisers means it doesn't even fair that well against them, there is now no reason to fly it over another option.

They should just drop this pitiful Shield Boost bonus and give it another range bonus in a similar fashion to the Cerb, let it be the low tank kiter it was supposed to be, let the Cyna fill the Role as it does now of the Brawl/Kite mix with its better EHP and Dual Prop.


You're comparing a rail deimos against an autocannon vagabond. That's not comparing like with like.

How much damage can you get with a vaga at 25km with 650mm artillery and republic EMP - kiting in a perfectly straight trajectory?

The example you quote has nothing to do with the performance of vagabonds, it is simply that railguns have got somewhat better.

In any case, in the example you quote, AC vaga vs rail deimos, the vaga still has speed advantage. It can orbit at any range it feels safe doing so. The deimos won't be able to hit it.

Vagas did not get worse, it's just that now every other HAC does not suck. You know, balance... Smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2614 - 2013-09-06 09:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
ITT People thinking Vagas have the grid to fit arties.

Also, I sourced several ships, and you poorly argued 1 of them.

Good job.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2615 - 2013-09-06 09:38:09 UTC
Medium Ancillary Current Router

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2616 - 2013-09-06 11:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Danny John-Peter wrote:
ITT People thinking Vagas have the grid to fit arties.

Also, I sourced several ships, and you poorly argued 1 of them.

Good job.


I fitted an arty vaga on sisi.

I chose one specific example to argue. I made a good case I think. You seem not to have come back with a counter argument.

With regard to the other hulls, well. If you try to use a close range fit (autocannons) against a long range fit (HM cerb, rail deimos etc), you have pretty much one option - you need to get close.

The vaga, at 3500m/s is very good at "getting close" - as good as it is at "not getting close". When burning for that cerb, you'll be glad of the 800dps overheated tank that you get from the ASB, the reduced signature radius and the sheer missile-negating speed of the hull.

Have you tried this on Sisi? I'm not being rude or trying to bait you. It's easy to make snap decisions about things before trying them.

What I think you are expressing is a realisation that the Vaga is no longer OP against everything. The 'balance' that we talk about is essentially making the game of rock-paper-scissors that is eve 1:1 a little more rich and complex, rather than "rock(vagabond) beats everything"

OK, so post-balance you'll need to pick your targets. Welcome to the world that every other ship lives in. If the balance pass had resulted in "vaga is still OP", it wouldn't have been a balance pass now would it?

EDIT: here's an example of a ~500dps artillery kiting vaga:
[Vagabond, standard artillery]

5x 650mm Artillery Cannon II (Republic Fleet EMP M)
Heavy Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Missile)

Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 150)

2x Gyrostabilizer II
2x Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

5x Hobgoblin II

optimal: 14.5km, 1/2 damage at 60km. 483 dps (unheated) will perma-run MWD, invuln and point. Other ammo gives better range/better damage.

EDIT: Just for lols, I knocked up this anti-amarr brawling vagabond:

[Vagabond, armour?]

5x 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II (Hail M)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Rage Rocket)

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II (Navy Cap Booster 800)
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer (Nanite Repair Paste)
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

2x Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

5x Hobgoblin II

overheated, tanks 1050dps against lasers, does 528 unheated dps and can still move at 3.5km/s. No way could the old vaga do this. Big smile

Would sir like me to wipe is *rse him him as well?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2617 - 2013-09-06 23:39:43 UTC
ah still Danny John-Peter qqing is going on
nothing changes
Randy Wray
Heinous Peinus
#2618 - 2013-09-07 18:15:45 UTC
Danny is right though.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#2619 - 2013-09-07 21:32:59 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I fitted an arty vaga on sisi.

I chose one specific example to argue. I made a good case I think. You seem not to have come back with a counter argument.

With regard to the other hulls, well. If you try to use a close range fit (autocannons) against a long range fit (HM cerb, rail deimos etc), you have pretty much one option - you need to get close.

The vaga, at 3500m/s is very good at "getting close" - as good as it is at "not getting close". When burning for that cerb, you'll be glad of the 800dps overheated tank that you get from the ASB, the reduced signature radius and the sheer missile-negating speed of the hull.

Have you tried this on Sisi? I'm not being rude or trying to bait you. It's easy to make snap decisions about things before trying them.

What I think you are expressing is a realisation that the Vaga is no longer OP against everything. The 'balance' that we talk about is essentially making the game of rock-paper-scissors that is eve 1:1 a little more rich and complex, rather than "rock(vagabond) beats everything"

OK, so post-balance you'll need to pick your targets. Welcome to the world that every other ship lives in. If the balance pass had resulted in "vaga is still OP", it wouldn't have been a balance pass now would it?

EDIT: here's an example of a ~500dps artillery kiting vaga:
[Vagabond, standard artillery]

5x 650mm Artillery Cannon II (Republic Fleet EMP M)
Heavy Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Missile)

Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 150)

2x Gyrostabilizer II
2x Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

5x Hobgoblin II

optimal: 14.5km, 1/2 damage at 60km. 483 dps (unheated) will perma-run MWD, invuln and point. Other ammo gives better range/better damage.

EDIT: Just for lols, I knocked up this anti-amarr brawling vagabond:

[Vagabond, armour?]

5x 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II (Hail M)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Rage Rocket)

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II (Navy Cap Booster 800)
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer (Nanite Repair Paste)
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

2x Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

5x Hobgoblin II

overheated, tanks 1050dps against lasers, does 528 unheated dps and can still move at 3.5km/s. No way could the old vaga do this. Big smile

Would sir like me to wipe is *rse him him as well?


eft wizard right there

No sig.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2620 - 2013-09-07 22:26:56 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:

eft wizard right there


EFT seems to be beyond some crybabies...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".