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So this is it for eve, is this the future, is it?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#461 - 2013-08-30 15:20:49 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I play EvE on hard mode. ... I solo exclusively...

Don't give me I want easy mode...

Doing thing by yourself, while demanding the game be changed to suit your chosen game style... is easy mode.

Somethings in this game require cooperation and working with others... strange for a MMO. That is hard mode.

Changes to destructible SOV mechanics were implemented for small to med gangs. I'm not asking for something to be done solo I'm asking for small med gangs to be able to damage peoples shite in Nullsec.

Just like its possible for null sec to damage shite in highsec in small med gangs (ganking freighters, miners) which they all seem to be fine with. When it comes to their own stuff they're more caring than the high sec carebears.

With POCO's having about a 700hp per second recharge it'd take me a week to kill one solo.



Seriously, in a game of timers and timezones... simply turning off someone's crap is the best thing you can do to hurt them.

You know how much easier it is to replace a structure than it is to wait a 24 hr timer?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#462 - 2013-08-30 15:29:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
The server does it to give them time to react not to your lone ship (nobody but those who hunt them gives a damn anyway, given as soon as a response capable of killing it undocks it'll leg it back to hisec and talk tough/cry blob) but to a fleet equal to them. Reinforcement timers actually generate fights, rf someone's moongoo tower and it's like putting a big "Oi! Possible fight here!" sign because both sides likely want it. Back when Tech was the thing to have, hitting a Tech tower was a sure way to provoke a response.

Going alone through null is like being a White Power member in the middle of harlem. Either you sneak through, are too fast for them to catch or everyone will want to beat the living crap out of you. Yes, you'll get blobbed and yes, contrary to the opinion of ~elitepvp~ most of them would be able to take you solo but half the fun of murder is doing it with friends.

It doesn't promote small gang / medium gang pvp. My whole argument is based around small to medium gangs raiding of null. There is also more to pvp than blob vs blob confrontations, damaging / destroying infrastructure is a part of PvP.

If you have a very large coalition or alliance that takes over a large portion of null sec without any ability to raid their weak spots but instead are required to wait 24 hours so they can amass an overpowering force you will never be able to harm them. Its a stupid system.

That's my argument.

As for could they, would they, can they, may they, should they, blah blah blah beat me solo... I don't give a flying crap if you think they could or not. If they can then they should. When they do good for them. So far they haven't.

Again though you are seeing your whole idea through only YUOR NARROW VIEW.
Consider how this would affect a small group holding a POCO in low when a slightly larger group comes by. Or consider how this affects large group v large group. Or consider how it would affect wormholes.
CCP won't implement a blanket change to a system that's worked fine for years just to help a solo player like you while screwing everyone else over.

You have blinkers on. Either that or you fail at comprehending my words.


*Blinders.

But he isn't wrong. Shut down their poco. It is possible. Or camp the poco in your cloaky t3 and when that freighter comes to get his goods... BAM! right in the kisser. Loot, scoot, and profit.

You just were given both a solo, and a small gang solution to your problem.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#463 - 2013-08-30 15:37:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You have blinkers on. Either that or you fail at comprehending my words.

I comprehend you perfectly. You want POCOs to have less HP and no reinforcement cycle. You want this because you want small and medium gangs to be able to do structural damage to large nullsec alliances without the certainty of that nullsec alliance forming up for a timer.
But your idea has several flaws, which have been pointed out more than once.
1. Null sec alliances don't make enough from PI over high sec PI to make a POCO worth defending. This change would just result in null sec alliances taking down POCOs and running PI in high sec.
2. This change would affect the income of small to medium corps working out of low sec, WH space and NPC null. They too would be likely to pull down POCOs and run PI from high sec.
3. Anyone relying on PI to build fuel for their POS would now need to ship fuel from high sec. This would particularly affect WH corps.

Overall your idea would provide you with only short term gains, but would affect anyone running PI outside of high sec long term.

1. If you can't defend it nor afford to lose it don't anchor it except in systems where you can defend it.
2. Small to medium corporations already get facestomped as do their POCO's. A 24 hour timer on a small to medium corporation is unlikely to be defended by a small to medium corporation if the attacker is greater. A 24 hour timer makes no difference. In any case no one is suggesting reinforcement timers be removed, nor that that HP be reduced. There has been no suggestion of any changes being made. Only an observation that the current system is flawed.
3. Booo fugging hooo. If you can't manage to defend your assets and have to import fuel bad luck. EvE is not supposed to be easy or fair.


Wut.

That 24 hr timer is good, not bad. Gives people time to form up. Has nothing to do with sov, affects the single player more than the alliance the single pilot is a part of.

You can indeed defend it! Any time of day! In case you did not know.. you DO get an evemail when your structure gets attacked. It's tons of fun. So just fire a volley, and wait to see who scouts you out.

You keep saying there's a flaw but not where that flaw is. That structure, as with ALL structures, go into a "reinforced mode" simply because the destruction is not paramount, but the conflict of halting the income. And that's done by putting into RF to begin with.

Structure damage, destruction, replacements... those are only for supplementing their poco with your own, to gain tax from other people using the poco, or to have a lower tax rate for yourself or your members.

So, like you said, it is not easy nor fair, but it is doable. For anyone.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#464 - 2013-08-30 15:40:44 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The best thing that can happen to Eve is Star Citizen and X Rebirth being released, hopefully they'll take away the current crop of people such as Harry Forever and Infinity Ziona, and their stupid ideas.

Then the rest of us can get back to murdering each other, or not as the case might be, in peace. It'll certainly improve the forums, I wouldn't even call their posts shiptoasting, they're not that good, it's more like "I'm going to roll my face across the keyboard" and "I'll let my cat sit on it".


those ideas are not stupid, you are just not smart enough to get it

you don't murder anything, you just dock... all you do is dock

pathetic nullsec alliances, one ship comes, and you dock

dock dock dock, thats your gameplay



You understand this is a game of risk right? Goading people into a fight is commendable if you can pull it off... but corpse cannons don't work well here.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#465 - 2013-08-30 15:55:38 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You have blinkers on. Either that or you fail at comprehending my words.

I comprehend you perfectly. You want POCOs to have less HP and no reinforcement cycle. You want this because you want small and medium gangs to be able to do structural damage to large nullsec alliances without the certainty of that nullsec alliance forming up for a timer.
But your idea has several flaws, which have been pointed out more than once.
1. Null sec alliances don't make enough from PI over high sec PI to make a POCO worth defending. This change would just result in null sec alliances taking down POCOs and running PI in high sec.
2. This change would affect the income of small to medium corps working out of low sec, WH space and NPC null. They too would be likely to pull down POCOs and run PI from high sec.
3. Anyone relying on PI to build fuel for their POS would now need to ship fuel from high sec. This would particularly affect WH corps.

Overall your idea would provide you with only short term gains, but would affect anyone running PI outside of high sec long term.

1. If you can't defend it nor afford to lose it don't anchor it except in systems where you can defend it.
2. Small to medium corporations already get facestomped as do their POCO's. A 24 hour timer on a small to medium corporation is unlikely to be defended by a small to medium corporation if the attacker is greater. A 24 hour timer makes no difference. In any case no one is suggesting reinforcement timers be removed, nor that that HP be reduced. There has been no suggestion of any changes being made. Only an observation that the current system is flawed.
3. Booo fugging hooo. If you can't manage to defend your assets and have to import fuel bad luck. EvE is not supposed to be easy or fair.



How about removing the timer but increasing the hp so it would take you roughly 12 hours to actually grind that structure down? Imagine NO rf timer, but like 500mil HP.

That way, the small gangs would be even further hampered because who wants to grind 1 structure for 12 hours for a lousy km?

Or you could just realize that if you come back when RF timer is up and no one is there to defend, you can still blow up the structure with 0 conflict...

Good luck.
It's like you don;t even read before you post!
1. If it doesn't make enough ISK, it's not worth defending, so WE SIMPLY WOULDN'T USE THEM. So you would still have nothing to shoot at. I'm not saying we would be sad because they would be hard to defend, they just would not be worth the isk investment and they'd become an unused feature.
2. Small to medium corps don't normally have to worry about huge alliances wandering in and stomping a POCO. We simply don't care enough about taking away a tiny fraction of income to stomp on them.
3. How about boo fugging hoo, if you can't kill a POCO solo then bad luck. EvE is not supposed to be easy or fair.

You need to work on your ability to respond to posts on the forum. You're simply going around in circles getting nowhere and avoiding the topic.

The fairer solution would be to leave assets with the same HP as they have at the moment, no reinforcement, but make all the HP armor. That way we can damage it and if you fail at defending, which you obviously appear to be incapable of, then that damage would be permanent and we could eventually pop it. Having to wait 24 hours to get your lazy asses into a massive blob to wtf pwn gangs is hand holding.

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2013-08-30 16:21:10 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Sure they should. Disrupt. Not annihilate or anything, but a small gang should definitely be able to harass and disrupt a large alliance.
I guess it depends on your definition of disrupt (To throw into confusion or disorder). Harass is fine... a single player can do that.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#467 - 2013-08-30 16:26:00 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Well we have to be reasonable. A 30,000 hp POCO would be stupid. A 10 million HP POCO is okay. However a 10 million HP POCO that becomes invulnerable and requires you to turn up to get ganked 24 hours later, not smart at all..


I like how you're convinced that we're going to show up with a thousand-man fleet to defend a POCO.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2013-08-30 16:27:50 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
You'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore a mechanic in this game.
You can ignore the game mechanics of 'reinforce' to destroy a POCO? Harry would be interested.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#469 - 2013-08-30 16:44:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You're not helping your argument by supporting mine...

You outlined exactly my point and why I think the system is flawed.

Solo pilot, small gang, even medium gang... oh well, just trash, they can't hurt any of our stuff, lets just dock, or leave, or just ignore them...

Thank you.

I think you misunderstand. They are considered trash because you "elite solo pvpers" put every mod you possibly can on your ship to make it unable to be found and killed. You only decloak when you are close to 100% chance of a victory and run away as soon as there is a threat. There is simply no point in us wasting our time waiting for you to decide to make a move.



This.

I'm pretty sure if they flew around in a non cloaky noobship... they'd get popped. ANYTHING with a hull will get blown up as long as it can be seen.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#470 - 2013-08-30 16:50:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
It's just a recent trend of hisec people discovering pvp and slowly getting their feet wet in the whole "no targets" bitterness.

That subject is a dead horse that's been flogged to the point it's a jelly-like wobbling mass with none of its characteristics remaining remotely horselike. There's no incentive to risk it, no reward to make you think "oh crap, a neutral/red scout in local. But I must remain in this easily-targetable place in my faction fit Tengu! I must get a shot at the billion ISK jackpot module or the anomaly will despawn!"

Risk vs. Reward is skewered and CCP should take a looong look before fixing it in a haphazard way, since in doing so they might do more harm than good. A good, big rebalance of PvE is needed.

I've been pvping since about late 2003...

I don't have any issues finding targets in null. I'm not complaining about lack of targets, there are lots. I'm simply saying that as in high sec, as in low sec, if you can afford to fly it you should be afford to lose it. If you deploy a player owned structure, it should be able to be damaged and even destroyed.

Now they can be damaged and destroyed, sure, but realistically, by a small gang or a medium gang, no. Any small gang or medium gang that turns up at the "allotted" time is going to be facestomped.

Basically this means you have indestructible player owned objects at least in regards to small and medium gangs. This is okay in WoW, its fine in The Sims and Second Life. But this is EvE... **** blows up. If your 100m isk POCO is so terribly hard to lose and you're in Null you have more to worry about than POCO's.



Player erected structures can, and are, destroyed by small gangs. We don't have a large gang when we destroy pocos or POS's unless you count 30 as "large". Even then, most of them are watching gates and providing intel.

There is no "basically". That's it. That's all there is to it. Fleet up with 10 up to 30 people, put the structure into RF mode, and come back to finish the job after RF mode exits.

If you think you're going to get blobbed.... you're choosing the wrong poco.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#471 - 2013-08-30 16:53:29 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I've been pvping since about late 2003...

So this character is just an alt then?

Infinity Ziona wrote:
I don't have any issues finding targets in null. I'm not complaining about lack of targets, there are lots. I'm simply saying that as in high sec, as in low sec, if you can afford to fly it you should be afford to lose it. If you deploy a player owned structure, it should be able to be damaged and even destroyed.

Now they can be damaged and destroyed, sure, but realistically, by a small gang or a medium gang, no. Any small gang or medium gang that turns up at the "allotted" time is going to be facestomped.
If a small or medium gang takes on a 10000 man alliance, yes, they get their face stomped. I wouldn't walk into a packed biker bar and start smashing up their tables and expect to leave with my knees in tact, even if I only smashed the empty tables.
EDIT: Oh and destroying a large POS in high sec takes a war dec 24 hours in advance, a huge gang (since caps can't come into high sec), then has a reinforce timer. Since most corps in high sec leave their BPOs in the station and remotely use them, they don't run the risk of losing them, and warping straight from POS shield to station (as there's no interdiction bubbles to stop them) means they can get everything out. High sec POCOs are completely invulnerable.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Basically this means you have indestructible player owned objects at least in regards to small and medium gangs. This is okay in WoW, its fine in The Sims and Second Life. But this is EvE... **** blows up. If your 100m isk POCO is so terribly hard to lose and you're in Null you have more to worry about than POCO's.
Again, they are not indestructible. They have the right amount of defense in relation to their profit. If you want to make them easier to kill, they need to increase the profit considerably.

Yeah my 2003 character in which I have kills listed all the way back to 2005 is an alt. Kill mails were handled differently from the way there are now, they were simply mails which you needed to manually post.

I disagree that they are balanced. They cost less than a battleship and require billion isk gangs to get them to reinforced in any reasonable amount of time. Once they are reinforced they are indestructible and once that happens any small gang will a) not be around anymore, b) if they come back they will be facestomped. Terrible balance.



No they don't. They only need 1 person to start shooting them. Time is relative to dps needed. "Billion isk gangs" are only required if you want the job done in under 5 minutes.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#472 - 2013-08-30 16:53:53 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They cost less than a battleship and require billion isk gangs to get them to reinforced in any reasonable amount of time. Once they are reinforced they are indestructible and once that happens any small gang will a) not be around anymore, b) if they come back they will be facestomped.


So go reinforce a whole bunch of them and force your target alliance to pick one or split their forces. Or pick an appropriately sized target that can't "facestomp" you.



That's what I'm sayin!

Meta that ****.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#473 - 2013-08-30 16:58:17 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
...If a small or medium gang takes on a 10000 man alliance, yes, they get their face stomped...


...'cause I didn't know how many of them it was going to take to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy piece of information to have, right there...'

Ron White



Tater Salad!

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#474 - 2013-08-30 17:00:49 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
...If a small or medium gang takes on a 10000 man alliance, yes, they get their face stomped...


...'cause I didn't know how many of them it was going to take to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy piece of information to have, right there...

Ron White

Absolutely not true. They only get facestomped if they attack player owned assets. Why? Because to kill those assets requires you to turn up at an allotted time to fight everyone in the alliance.



No. Just those who show up. Like any other fight.

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destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Looking for Trouble
#475 - 2013-08-30 17:07:52 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
The alliances that hold the sov have worked hard and often had to fight another alliance for that sov. As long as they own it, they should be allowed to use the space however they want, even if it means renting it out. It's just like a real estate business. The people selling a piece of property to you don't necessarily have to be using it (that's probably why they are selling/renting it out in the first place).

The alliance renting out their space makes money, and the renters are able to live in nullsec without being tied down to said alliances. They an move in and do what they need/want to do for as long as they can pay for it. It's a win-win for everyone.

If an alliance doesn't want to rent out their space, they don't have to. Simple.


this is a game btw, just pointing that out. So shall we now put in the eve trailers. "Eve is no longer a sandbox, your game is controlled by others sorry, if you want to go into nullsec, just kiss someones ass, pay stupid amount of isk for even the worse systems, these are thew new microtransactions, oh but we still expect your monthly fee. Play on one server, but remember the players that have been playing for years have control of everything and you wont have the same level playing field as they did when only 3000 ppl ws online"

i mean lets be honest here...whilst we are at it.



err or you could just chose option B and take the space from them. harrass their renters, because those who are renting their space usually have to protect their renters to keep them in that space.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#476 - 2013-08-30 18:04:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well see this whole thread was on rental alliances. My argument is that if you cannot damage sov assets by raiding, which means small to medium gangs hitting weak points and then running away, but instead are forced to come back 24 hours later to face the blob and get owned, then any alliance that dominates null will be untouchable.

The only way for null to not become the big blue donut and rental online is for smaller entities to raid, out think and outmaneuver bigger stronger alliances.

Take the guy earlier that said they have no option but to rent from bigger alliances, why? Because any direct confrontation with bigger alliances wipes out the weaker alliance (TEST is an great example). But the only way to harm bigger alliances is to show up 24 hour later when they're all prepared to own you... catch 22 right?



It's a very good point you brought up; this is about renters.

You know... ratter's. Miners. PEOPLE flying ships you can indeed harass!

You do not need a blob to gank a miner. You do not have a timer when you get that ratter into his armor.

PI, before you focus on that, is simply a supplemental income. It is not mainstream. You literally would make more off PI in lowsec than null without a market.

NPC null, rented sov, and owned sov are not the main source of income and you can still harass them! However, you cannot take their sov.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#477 - 2013-08-30 18:41:08 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Addavar Thearox wrote:


[quote=Harry Forever]but don't you worry 1. Oct is my last day, the people just suck

That is the BEST news I've heard today. Possibly all week. The fact that I know that somewhere you'll still be sharing the planet with me is a shame, but I will forbear.



If he is so inconsequential, why does it matter or become "best news" that you've heard all day?

And for the record... everyone kill whores. Bombs do damage. Killwhoring is multiple points/painters etc or just any tag to get on the km (see Logi and most cap kills).

Not like it really matters enough to debunk it, but I found the attention to those details amusing.

It's the best news for the same reason I'm glad the forums block viagra spam posts. The less rubbish I have to read when reading through threads the better.

And yes, KM whoring happens all the time. But firstly, he claimed to have "killed" the billion isk loki. Secondly, the loki was friendly to him. You don't ***** in on a friendly target then claim yourself to be "pro".



Hahaha fair enough!

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#478 - 2013-08-30 18:46:01 UTC
destiny2 wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:
this is a game btw, just pointing that out. So shall we now put in the eve trailers. "Eve is no longer a sandbox, your game is controlled by others sorry, if you want to go into nullsec, just kiss someones ass, pay stupid amount of isk for even the worse systems, these are thew new microtransactions, oh but we still expect your monthly fee. Play on one server, but remember the players that have been playing for years have control of everything and you wont have the same level playing field as they did when only 3000 ppl ws online"

i mean lets be honest here...whilst we are at it.


err or you could just chose option B and take the space from them. harrass their renters, because those who are renting their space usually have to protect their renters to keep them in that space.

Join N3.

As one of their renters.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#479 - 2013-08-30 18:46:18 UTC
Enochx Kaine wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Enochx Kaine wrote:
I haven't read everything because...well...it's 22 pages for gods sake. ANd I am new to the game...so if this is obvious or already been said then I apologize in advance.

BUT.....if this makes you so mad, then surely it will make others mad. If everyone gets fed up with the status quo, then the status quo must change. Null sec is the same as everything else. When something is disliked, then there are people who want it changed.

Instead of trying to get CCP to change the rules, why don't you go find people to help you fix the problem. If you can't, then go find someone who can. Instead of trying to change the rules of the game, why not go change the game according to the rules. That's what the CFC have done. If they can do it, why can't anyone else?


CFC haven't changed the rules. They're just doing what every large alliance / coalition has done before. CFC will either get disbanded (again) because someone got bored or CCP will change the rules (again) because they can. Not like CCP haven't changed the rules of the game repeatedly since EvE first came out.



No thats what I am saying. They used the rules to change the game to their advantage. As it should be. But just because you don't like the outcome doesn't mean you should petition to get the rules changed. CFC used teh rules of the game to take over half the universe and rent it out to make money.

Like I said, I am new, but if they had broken the rules to get to where they are today then I assume EVE would have not allowed it. Just because the OP doesn't like the outcome doesn't mean the rules should be changed. I think the OP should do something about it within the confines of the same rules is all I was saying. DO something about it if you don't like, but don't try to get EVE to change teh rules to do something about it.

But what do I know....I just see parallels with the attitude of the world today. Used to be people would have a problem and they would go out and fix it. Now it seems people have a problem and they call someone else to fix it instead.

Sorry for preaching...I am at work and it just struck a nerve I guess.



I understand the emotional investment... but the problem with the thread in its current incarnation is that the topic has gone from Renters (which technically it still should be) to a specific few equating it to poco's and pi alone. Which is false.

That stance alone has changed the entire dynamic of the thread since renters do not automatically pi their income, nor is what is happening have any validity because what the new advocate for change is saying, is that what is currently in existence, SHOULD be in existence. But is falsely stating that small groups should be able to DESTROY the structures in the same way as you can simply put it into reinforce mode.

Otherwise, you are on the right track.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#480 - 2013-08-30 18:46:36 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
You'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore a mechanic in this game.
You can ignore the game mechanics of 'reinforce' to destroy a POCO? Harry would be interested.

Sounds like an exploit that was used in the past

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?