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So this is it for eve, is this the future, is it?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2013-08-30 13:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Lucas Kell wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
nothing is going on out there, I'm pretty sure the average kill per system per hour is below zero, this is nothing for me... you might endup with a thousands because of that, but it does not feel like it, it feels just like 1 kill per hour max... pew nothing pew

There's loads going on out there. Stop saying the same dumbass stuff over and over again. At this point you are just spouting bullshit in an attempt to troll.
Of course there are completely empty systems that will bring it down, but your argument is you can't find ANY kills, and we are telling you to look in the right places. 1DH-SX in Delve for example has had 265 kills in the past 24 hours, that's 11 per hour. PR-8CA has had 221 in 24 hours, that's 9.2/hour. 319-3D has had 124, that's 5.1/hour.
Considering 1DH and PR-8 are next door to each other and 319 is 3 jumps away, it would seem to me that there's plenty going on there, and that's the place to go.
Here's a list of other places you might find people fighting:
WD-VTV (Catch)
TG-Z23 (Stain)
Y-MPWL (Providence)
KFIE-Z (Delve)
4-EP12 (Fountain)
6-CZ49 (Syndicate)
NRT4-U (Stain)



Confirming there is always something to do or shoot in the 6-cz49 pocket of Syndicate.

Especially for bombers.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#442 - 2013-08-30 13:58:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I didn't say I was a good PvP'r nor did I say I was a full time PvP'r. I have a okay K/D ratio for solo pvp'r, actually its pretty damn good for a solo PvP'r. My last PvP sortie I killed 32 nullbears for 2 losses. Get out of your blobs and go try solo pvp in billion isk ships without jumpcloning and lets see how you do. If you can beat my 32 for 2 I'll give you 10 billion isk, happy to transfer it to Chribba if you like. Fraps it I'll be interested to see how you do in null all alone.

Hey, I'm not trying to insult you. But you appears to have only had 2 months of PvP in the past 3 years, which I would say excludes you from being classed as a PvPer I have kills on my KBs, most not solo, but I'm a trader. I don't go spouting off claiming to be the example of PvP.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
I disagree with your argument on POCO's.

That's great. It doesn't change the fact that that's how it's balanced, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2013-08-30 13:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Harry Forever wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
nothing is going on out there, I'm pretty sure the average kill per system per hour is below zero, this is nothing for me... you might endup with a thousands because of that, but it does not feel like it, it feels just like 1 kill per hour max... pew nothing pew

There's loads going on out there. Stop saying the same dumbass stuff over and over again. At this point you are just spouting bullshit in an attempt to troll.
Of course there are completely empty systems that will bring it down, but your argument is you can't find ANY kills, and we are telling you to look in the right places. 1DH-SX in Delve for example has had 265 kills in the past 24 hours, that's 11 per hour. PR-8CA has had 221 in 24 hours, that's 9.2/hour. 319-3D has had 124, that's 5.1/hour.
Considering 1DH and PR-8 are next door to each other and 319 is 3 jumps away, it would seem to me that there's plenty going on there, and that's the place to go.
Here's a list of other places you might find people fighting:
WD-VTV (Catch)
TG-Z23 (Stain)
Y-MPWL (Providence)
KFIE-Z (Delve)
4-EP12 (Fountain)
6-CZ49 (Syndicate)
NRT4-U (Stain)


I searched the whole map, for sure hundreds of jumps in the last weeks, if there is a spot where a fight is on the map, you might go there but its over before you arrive... this **** happens day by day, so you endup camping a gate like all the other players out there, you wait for 1-2 hours, I did wait even longer, thats the only way to get a kill... you might join a corp and beg to god they start a war once a year, however as there is a maximum of 1 fight per day in nullsec, it would be like a loto jackpot to choose the right corp to assure you get into that fight

you also missunderstand that those fights are not spread over the whole day, you would need to hit the right time when those fights are happening, they take place in 1-2 hours each day, you never find one, its impossible because the map shows the fights delayed, its ****

this game would be cool if every 5-10 jumps there are fights, but therefore more corps would need to fight but all of you prefer to be friends instead



6-cz(edit typo) in Syndicate is a bottleneck (1 of 2) entry point into null from Gallente space. There is ALWAYS something going on. Even if you just want to blow up bubbles.

Plus, e-uni is nearby and they are always down to play "let's kill a bomber".

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#444 - 2013-08-30 14:01:23 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Addavar Thearox wrote:


[quote=Harry Forever]but don't you worry 1. Oct is my last day, the people just suck

That is the BEST news I've heard today. Possibly all week. The fact that I know that somewhere you'll still be sharing the planet with me is a shame, but I will forbear.



If he is so inconsequential, why does it matter or become "best news" that you've heard all day?

And for the record... everyone kill whores. Bombs do damage. Killwhoring is multiple points/painters etc or just any tag to get on the km (see Logi and most cap kills).

Not like it really matters enough to debunk it, but I found the attention to those details amusing.

It's the best news for the same reason I'm glad the forums block viagra spam posts. The less rubbish I have to read when reading through threads the better.

And yes, KM whoring happens all the time. But firstly, he claimed to have "killed" the billion isk loki. Secondly, the loki was friendly to him. You don't whore in on a friendly target then claim yourself to be "pro".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#445 - 2013-08-30 14:05:14 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No I expect alliance assets abandoned in systems be destroyable. You should be defending, not the server.

The server isn't defending outside of highsec, and even then, that defence has a deliberate mechanism for circumventing it called wardecs.

The server is most definitely defending your assets. In history, many conglomerates, empires, coalitions have over extended and made themselves vulnerable to guerrilla warfare and raids on their assets. Having a vast empire opens one up to having ones assets raided.

However in EvE this can't occur, everything, even a 100 million isk customs office, has 10's of millions of HP's, goes into reinforced, removing any chance that an alliance needs to organize itself to defend. A small group needs to risk billions and spend hours to blow up something worth less then a battleship.

All the excuses in the world, oh we have to sleep, we'll have no one on to fight or why should we have people in our systems to defend when we could be care-bearing somewhere else blah blah blah is all just sad lazy nullbear excuses for CCP's wiping your litlte arses and holding your willies to take a pee.

I'm embarrassed you're all defending it.






The problem with using a POCO as a stance, is that the actual cost of the structure isn't the worth that it brings. It's the income. Or rather, potential income (since you could just keep it flagged as reinforced without coming back to destroy it).

That income is potentially worth more than a battleship.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#446 - 2013-08-30 14:06:31 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...A small group needs to risk billions and spend hours to blow up something worth less then a battleship...

I'm embarrassed you're all defending it.
I am puzzled why you think POCOs are an issue? Do you believe that the major alliances somehow make lots of money off PI?

They're not an issue. They're a stark example of a very cheap deploy-able module that are unable to be killed by raiders without disproportionate time and effort and isk being put in to kill them.




Confirming a fleet of 10 when bored roaming and can't find a fight, have settled for a good ol poco bash.

Took 15 minutes or so.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#447 - 2013-08-30 14:14:54 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?

I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.




Sure they should. Disrupt. Not annihilate or anything, but a small gang should definitely be able to harass and disrupt a large alliance.

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Enochx Kaine
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#448 - 2013-08-30 14:31:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Enochx Kaine wrote:
I haven't read everything because...well...it's 22 pages for gods sake. ANd I am new to the game...so if this is obvious or already been said then I apologize in advance.

BUT.....if this makes you so mad, then surely it will make others mad. If everyone gets fed up with the status quo, then the status quo must change. Null sec is the same as everything else. When something is disliked, then there are people who want it changed.

Instead of trying to get CCP to change the rules, why don't you go find people to help you fix the problem. If you can't, then go find someone who can. Instead of trying to change the rules of the game, why not go change the game according to the rules. That's what the CFC have done. If they can do it, why can't anyone else?


CFC haven't changed the rules. They're just doing what every large alliance / coalition has done before. CFC will either get disbanded (again) because someone got bored or CCP will change the rules (again) because they can. Not like CCP haven't changed the rules of the game repeatedly since EvE first came out.



No thats what I am saying. They used the rules to change the game to their advantage. As it should be. But just because you don't like the outcome doesn't mean you should petition to get the rules changed. CFC used teh rules of the game to take over half the universe and rent it out to make money.

Like I said, I am new, but if they had broken the rules to get to where they are today then I assume EVE would have not allowed it. Just because the OP doesn't like the outcome doesn't mean the rules should be changed. I think the OP should do something about it within the confines of the same rules is all I was saying. DO something about it if you don't like, but don't try to get EVE to change teh rules to do something about it.

But what do I know....I just see parallels with the attitude of the world today. Used to be people would have a problem and they would go out and fix it. Now it seems people have a problem and they call someone else to fix it instead.

Sorry for preaching...I am at work and it just struck a nerve I guess.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#449 - 2013-08-30 14:34:59 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Through what evidence or reasoning did you arrive at that conclusion?
Would it be possible for any counterevidence or counterargument to sway you?

Show me a customs office that doesn't have 10 million shield, 500,000 armor and I might be swayed.
So, you do not have any evidence or reasoning to present (Or fail to present it, same thing in essence).
And what you want from a counterargument is not just unreasonable but impossible.

I'd have no problem discussing these issues and enlightening you to some of the common mistakes you're making, but with this information it's safe to say that you are not going to learn because you will not learn.
Like Harry Forever, the OP, and some of the "people" in here, you don't want to know what you're talking about.

Have you heard about the metaphor of playing chess with a pigeon?

I have provided plenty of reasoning. I don't need to provide evidence that a POCO costs 100 million isk and has 10 million HP. It does. If you don't know that then nothing I can do about it.

My argument is that alliance infrastructure should be defended by the alliance, not by massive amounts of HP. Its unreasonable to want to have all your infrastructure functionally indestructible to small and medium gangs.

Plenty of meat there for you to make a counter argument, do you have one that is reasonable and not "we fail at recruiting people from different time zones so we should have 48 hours of notice" or "why should we defend our space, it costs too much".



So ok wait... what if a poco had 30,000 hp and you had a 100man fleet defending it, and 1 fleet of 10 bombers hit that poco and destroyed it?

WTF.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#450 - 2013-08-30 14:42:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Who wants to actually fight when you can shoot structures and run away

:smugdog: paging Lyris Nairn

You're assuming we want to fight you. We don't. We want to gank you when you least expect, blow up your shite and then run away so we can gank you again later and then blow up more of your shite.

If I wanted to duel people on even terms I would have rolled a Paladin in WoW.

We're not assuming that at all. We've quite clearly said that's what you want to do. We just don't think we should ruin the balance for everyone else just to make it easier for you.

What balance? The requirement to bring 10 ships and spend 3 hours to put a 100m isk module into reinforced mode so someone can not do PI for a day? That's ludicrous imbalanced.

You want CCP to hold your hand so you can as you say "go do something more useful than defend your own space".


10 ships = 15 mins. Did you forget to read that one. If 10 ships take you 3 hours, then your ships are only putting out 69.5 DPS.

And no, again you seem to fail to read the point. Here goes again, as simply as is possible:
If every POCO had to be guarded all the time to make sure it stayed alive, PI profit would be less than profit from those same defenders simply ratting for a little while. THUS: If POCOs are made easier to kill, null sec PI will simply stop, and we will just do PI in high sec.
All of our PI is done by alts anyway, so they can do that anywhere.

I really don't know how that can be put any simpler. It's half simple math, and half simple economics. But if you still don't get it, and you still don't understand how 7.5m hp will take 10 people with ~800 dps 15 minutes to go through, then you have no hope of ever understanding.

EDIT: TBH, after running the numbers, I'm considering going and blowing up a few POCOs myself. Just for the giggles.



Hell, you can take like 10-15 vexors (not even navy!) with t1 drones and fit for range and just sit back and watch.

Poco bashing is only fun when you want to see various kitchen sink fleet comps can get the job done.

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Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#451 - 2013-08-30 14:43:21 UTC
The main problem lies in dependencies. Let's follow the poco example - groups that use pocos:

- Nullsec sov-holders
- WH holders

Now, let's cut the EHP and reinforce timer from pocos.

Group 1: Gauge the net worth of a customs office. If the amount of money it brings exceeds the cost of replacing it due to raids/effort defending it against raids, keep it. They likely have logistics in place to replace it easily. All in all, they would not be affected all that much - if anything, targets would run dry because the locals would stop replacing the pocos.

Group 2: Using local planets as a source of POS fuel components makes fuel logistics easier. With lower EHP/no rf timer, it would become possible for a small group to knock out said fuel component production easily in time the owner can't do anything about it. Holders would have to either ship in gantries + base components or resort to just shipping fuel in, increasing cost of holding a POS and the logistics effort. Given wormhole mass/time limitations and local reliance on POSes (equivalent of Null stations) makes such change shaft wormholers.

Are nullsec holders hurt (intended result)? Not much. Are wormhole holders hurt? Probably more.

Aaand pretty much the entire "infrastructure" thing is full of such examples. Things do need to change, but CCP needs to tread carefully not to flip the table completely.

One thing that should be done in the first place is not nerf, but buff sov holding. Heresy, you say? Well, I say not - make space worth holding on to - and raiding. Such changes are already progressing with rental empires making a return, but we need more. We need mountains of ISK - make it worth saying "let's go raid nullsec, we'll disrupt their operations and steal their candy."

Once you have a resource actually worth defending against a few people, you have someone defending it - and subsequently a fight.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#452 - 2013-08-30 14:45:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
a bunch of Goons trying to justify why their 100m isk POCO shouldn't be allowed to be ganked by a small to medium gang


Absolutely nobody is arguing this. There is nothing stopping you from bringing a small gang to our space and killing POCOs...you just have to put some time into it. Kind of like the time we put into conquering and maintaining the space.

Cool so I guess after we put them into reinforced mode, we'll just sit around and have tea with you guys and then blow them up when they come out? You can help us with the remaining 25%?

Yeah... I don't see that happening. They're essentially indestructible.



Until they come out of RF mode. Until then, you do not need to be there.

Go do something else in the meantime. Point is, when it's in RF mode, it isn't making those larger alliances/forces/people any isk.

You do not need to destroy it to disable it. You only need to destroy it to put your own in it's place.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#453 - 2013-08-30 14:46:23 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Maybe he doesn't understand how reinforcement mechanics work. It's confusing for a lot of high sec pubbies.



I dunno, some sov nullbears have comprehension issues as well.

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#454 - 2013-08-30 14:49:19 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Through what evidence or reasoning did you arrive at that conclusion?
Would it be possible for any counterevidence or counterargument to sway you?

Show me a customs office that doesn't have 10 million shield, 500,000 armor and I might be swayed.
So, you do not have any evidence or reasoning to present (Or fail to present it, same thing in essence).
And what you want from a counterargument is not just unreasonable but impossible.

I'd have no problem discussing these issues and enlightening you to some of the common mistakes you're making, but with this information it's safe to say that you are not going to learn because you will not learn.
Like Harry Forever, the OP, and some of the "people" in here, you don't want to know what you're talking about.

Have you heard about the metaphor of playing chess with a pigeon?

I have provided plenty of reasoning. I don't need to provide evidence that a POCO costs 100 million isk and has 10 million HP. It does. If you don't know that then nothing I can do about it.

My argument is that alliance infrastructure should be defended by the alliance, not by massive amounts of HP. Its unreasonable to want to have all your infrastructure functionally indestructible to small and medium gangs.

Plenty of meat there for you to make a counter argument, do you have one that is reasonable and not "we fail at recruiting people from different time zones so we should have 48 hours of notice" or "why should we defend our space, it costs too much".

So ok wait... what if a poco had 30,000 hp and you had a 100man fleet defending it, and 1 fleet of 10 bombers hit that poco and destroyed it?

WTF.


Well we have to be reasonable. A 30,000 hp POCO would be stupid. A 10 million HP POCO is okay. However a 10 million HP POCO that becomes invulnerable and requires you to turn up to get ganked 24 hours later, not smart at all.

Even if they cost a few billion isk, the timer would still prevent gangs from being able to raid stuff. Making small gangs and medium gangs able to do any harm to abandoned alliance assets impossible.

Bad system.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#455 - 2013-08-30 14:51:35 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yet now you add reinforced mode. You as a small group can disrupt a POCO for 24 hours with very little time investment. No structure should be able to be completely destroyed in a single session as that would just mean everyone runs around when their enemy is offline destroying everything. That wouldn't be fun for anyone.


How is you blowing up a Mackinaw in high sec in 15 seconds any different? I'll tell you how: A Mackinaw is worth twice as much as a POCO and the person flying it doesn't get extra warning or extra chances to save it. It's a double standard. Newbs play EVE Online. Null sec veterans play Farmville. We all know your argument is bullshit and that you really just like the system as it currently is because it gives you an unfair advantage. That's fine. But if you continue to shovel logical fallacies and bogus, self-motivated "justifications" for the system, we're probably going to shoot them down. Sorry. Your dogs don't hunt.



Even more relevant is the mackinaw is a ship and the poco is a structure.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#456 - 2013-08-30 14:53:17 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:
The short of it is, you want to kill our stuff, but you don;t want to put the effort in. At the same time, you think we should have to put whole groups of pilots on 24 hour standby to guard every POCO. It's stupid and you bloody well know it is.


What effort was put in to putting the structure up? That should be a comparative effort that is used to decide how much effort is required to take it down. And you don't get to count a 4000 player battle for the system, because the effort on one side is cancelled out by the effort of the other side in that battle. What happens afterward is its own event.

If you're too unorganized or short sighted to figure out how to protect your space empire AT ALL TIMES, then you shouldn't have one. In the real world, the police, the military, the fire department, the hospital emergency room, and even the freakin' donut shop are on station ready to perform their duty 24 hours a day. Your house doesn't go into reinforced mode when it's burning down and no one is going to wait almost TWO DAYS to get their donuts and coffee after ordering them.



Then the burden is on you to make them defend it for 24/7. Show them how they can't afford to keep the space.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2013-08-30 14:54:35 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Taking a POCO out for 24 hours or even managing to take it down because you're all down in Delve and cba to clonejump back to defend it right now doesn't really reap any benefits for the attacker unless he is sure it takes the owner so long to blob it back he gets his own POCO and PI structures investment back and that would still make it worth the attackers time.
I'd rather recommend self destructing noobships and collecting the unit of Trit each time as a more rewarding activity.

Incapacitating a POCO (atually I'm aiming at moongoo POSes) if it just vomited a certain percentage (let's say 25%) of the contents out just for reinforcing it would suffice to make nullsec a lot more interesting place.



That would actually make sense for a RF mode to eject it's contents. Minus hangars though, but like... the labs and arrays.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#458 - 2013-08-30 15:00:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
The NPCs are the ones protecting their space empire.

They just seem to let anyone dock there and use their facilities for nearly nothing.



It's a long con into slavery... you'll see...

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Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#459 - 2013-08-30 15:03:40 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well we have to be reasonable. A 30,000 hp POCO would be stupid. A 10 million HP POCO is okay. However a 10 million HP POCO that becomes invulnerable and requires you to turn up to get ganked 24 hours later, not smart at all.

Even if they cost a few billion isk, the timer would still prevent gangs from being able to raid stuff. Making small gangs and medium gangs able to do any harm to abandoned alliance assets impossible.

Bad system.


If you aren't using a ship right now I should be able to go into your hangar and blow it up. If you want to own ships you should be prepared to defend them. Its not fair that you rely on game mechanics to keep your ships safe when you are docked or logged off.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#460 - 2013-08-30 15:14:01 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
...your secure mechanics are from the 80's, no modern player wants that ****

go watch TV there you don't have to move a finger and be safe
You seemed confused. My mechanics? I don't recall being involved in their development.

I do remember starting a trail subscription to play what looked like an interest space conquest game... only to find out it was something very different. My preconception and perhaps a little of the marketing were off, but regardless, I had to make a choice... learn the mechanics of the game, play and enjoy... or not.

What I don't have is the choice of which game mechanic will or won't be implemented. You get the good with the bad.



You'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore a mechanic in this game.

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