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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#461 - 2013-08-30 04:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
Ravasta Helugo wrote:

Please explain that to me in more detail.

Right now, using the Nightmare and Paladin as an example, the Nightmare has more applied DPS because of it's tracking bonus. However theoretical DPS of both ships is the same.

That isn't going to change. And now the Paladin will be immune to EWAR, vastly raising it's DPS over the Nightmare in certain missions- as well as making every mission feasible to run (I am looking at you, perma-jamming Gurista bastards.) The Paladin will now have unquestionably better range as well, not to mention that it will be indestructible to all but a large, expensive suicide gank squad.



In an earlier comment, the Pirate ship rebalance was mentioned. It isn't necessarily a comparison to what the pirate ships are now, but what they WILL be.

And it seemed as though CCP wants to focus on their DPS application, and perhaps more of a PVP role...

I am hoping someday ... just maybe ... That there will be pirate faction warfare in null sec. And these ships, with pirate Battlecruisers, would be used there a lot! When there is pirate faction warfare in null sec, I will be there all the the time!

No, I don't have any actual references to CCP's stated goals for the Pirate Faction Battleships ... Just hear-say on my part... But I will keep looking.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#462 - 2013-08-30 04:23:13 UTC
zbaaca wrote:
-1 for rebalance because :
1) every 1 got rid from ewar only golem have one . just waste of med slot. on roams we have matar recons with TP and what CCP Ytterbium achieved that we have not just useless but contradictory bonus on fights that he was mentioned.
just add another sig speed or radius bonus istead (or maybe resists and make it second damnation Big smile)
2) range bonus for missiles , let's see... it's fine if u use torps and total overkill for cruise. but why use torp ? please tell me who uses torp fits now ? so we have useless bonus or this is supposed hidden hint to torp rebalance ?

btw : yay for steamrollin' guris !


1. more room for webs on the minny recons, +60% painters are nice

2. I think missile velocity is a pretty interesting bonus. plus faster missiles -> a smaller delay on getting damage on target.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#463 - 2013-08-30 04:26:30 UTC
Golom fix seems about right - it's biggest problem is PG - making it useless at the moment.

The PG buff is the right step forward.



Can you start calling the expansions etc by months and not seasons?
It is kinda stupid when this is an international community and it will be summer for 1/2 of the planet.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#464 - 2013-08-30 04:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Thanks!


CCP doesn't gift you free skills when they add them. CCP has also said nothing about making the new skill a requirement to fly the ship. It's required to use the module, but not the ship.

Even if it is added as a requirement for flying a Marauder, you will probably NOT get the required skill levels credited when it hits. You would STILL be able to actually fly the Marauder, as it is not the final required skill to fly it - which is called "Marauders". As long as you already have Marauders level 1 trained, you can still fly it.

See the recent skill changes to which you refer for evidence. Changes were made to carrier requirements, but as long as people had the racial carrier skill trained to 1 (same as before), they could still fly them afterwards without the changed support skills being at the correct level.

CCP will likely not answer your question, so you'll just have to make do with another player answering it.[/quote]

Thanks!

In substance, I agree with your answer. I think it would be consistent with the past. But there was SO much confusion, and so many repeat questions in-game about these exact issues in previous patches ... I just want to make it clear from the beginning this time.

However, CCP HAS gifted free SP, (not necessarily skills) in the past, (Like with the recent Battlecruiser skill changes.)

They may have decided to change this up a bit... I don't know.

But assuming an answer is true, does not imply it is official... Just wanted it to be stated, because people will want to know for CERTAIN. Hear-say, and making assumptions based on the past, are never a valid source for truth--especially in the Eve universe. :p
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#465 - 2013-08-30 04:31:08 UTC
I think this is a strong and interesting idea and I give you guys full props for its invention.

I do think it's a tad shy on the true efficacy bonuses though. Maybe I'm wrong and the tank bonus is enough, but I can't help but feel that it would be a lot more useful with some additional protection. As it is you will inevitably be caught out at some point and you will be neuted dry in no time at all. Something like a 50% reduction in energy warfare (neuts and NOS) would do wonders to ameliorate this.

It's a thought. Maybe not what you are looking for in the design, but I personally think it would be a good addition. Perhaps also something along the lines of a small DPS bonus as well / instead, but we don't want to get ahead of ourselves.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#466 - 2013-08-30 04:34:05 UTC
This is a very nice idea and I love that you came up with new stuff!

The only threat to the blink -> bastion idea is on-grid probing. Without that, you could hope deal with approaching tackle with your amazing dps projection, but when it warps at 0 on you, you are hosed.

However, the tank in bastion means the opposing gang needs really serious numbers to break you.

Of course, a small gang of marauders will tear tackle off each others, as they are completely free from formation, being independent operators. Picture held by a slaved, dual plate Proteus which is surrounded by 6 Kronoses, 50km apart, and each one has you in Null optimal. With Talos tracking.



Moridin Mandarb wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war.


But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has.


In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps.


40 battleships is not PVP, it's blobbing, and only very few players in this game cares what happens in those- it's not interesting no matter which ship you are sitting in.





.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#467 - 2013-08-30 04:34:07 UTC
Shiganaru wrote:
My 2 cents:



Basically Dreadnaughts use the advanced reconfiguration skill, while marauders use the normal. Require "Tactical Reconfiguration IV" to train "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration".

The non-advanced skill could also give dreads weapon bonuses, so dreads could fit a bit more tank instead of a bunch of weapons mods. (just a thought)


Please just stop... You obviously do not know how to fit a Dread or use one so don't even hint at another skill to be training on Dreads...
Cade Windstalker
#468 - 2013-08-30 04:40:30 UTC
Tzel Mayon wrote:
To answer the questions why I believe Marauders, (and what CCP has already stated), should be optimized for Hit and Run Raider/Marauder tactics: In short, create frigate synergy with Marauders. This accomplishes CCP's goal in nearly every way, AND fulfills a LOT of CCP's other goals. Remove the tank bonuses of siege mode altogether--this contradicts the "hit and run" philosophy. Make getting into and out of Siege mode faster. Make transitioning a disruptable action. Siege mode should give DPS and Range, or Tracking Bonuses, Explosion Radius bonuses, Falloff, etc. "Hit AND RUN" = Harassment Marauder.

Give Marauders short range Micro-Jump-Portal Generators, with Cyno Painters, to get Frigates/Destroyers to the front lines instantly, or give them Frigate/Destroyer MWD Fleet Bonuses --- ANYTHING to get frigates engaged with battleships without being vaporized in the process, (an MWD Sig Reduction Fleet bonus perhaps. but that would make cruisers have a decided disadvantage over frigates.)


So, you mean like Assault Frigates? 50% reduction in radius right there.

Or there's the whole warp in on top of them thing, but you'd still have problems with drones or smart-bombs in large fleets.

This is not a viable tactic. There are plenty of ways for frigates to engage battleships in small groups, in large groups they have far more ways to counter you, including just bringing cruiser support.

Tzel Mayon wrote:
Frigates wouldn't die faster in Incursions if they got to the front lines instantaneously. Besides, the concept is to increase the "depth" of Eve Online, to utilize more fleet tactics, to try to get every role engaged if possible. Where there are frigates, there can be destroyers, where there are destroyers, cruisers, etc.

Electronic Attack Frigates in incursions, faction warfare, and massive null sec fights would be really fun. But, more to my original point: Marauders having awesome synergy with frigates would incentivize null sec corps to bring a LOT more frigates to their conflicts!


Frigates already have a role as tackle and light DPS and do, in-fact, show up in fleet fights. If you didn't know Null-sec actually went through a Frigates phase ages back. The problem with bringing lots of frigates is that they don't do much DPS and can be easily shot and killed if you know how to deal with them, either with smartbombs, webs, any sort of cruiser weapons with tracking, drones, and the list goes on.

More to the point you are trying to shoe-horn a synergy into the game when synergy is something that should be created by the players, not enforced by CCP.

Tzel Mayon wrote:
1. Acceleration gates are often problematic for probes in both faction warfare plexes, and incursions. Warping to targets on the other side is well, difficult(?) :p , which makes buzzards, et al, very difficult to use in this cotext.

2. Probing down targets in an incursion is time dependent, whereas a jump-portal-generator and painter are /tactical/ solutions that can be used for on-grid targets that don't need to be probed down.


Faction Warfare already has plenty of content for frigates, no problems there. Also combat rarely happens inside either FWar plexes or Incursions at ranges where a jump portal would be more practical than simply having the frigates MWD to the target.

Tzel Mayon wrote:
Wha??? I wish that were true! But why narrow this down to assault frigates? I was actually thinking Electronic Warfare Frigates, tbh. frigate on frigate/destroyer/cruiser logistics, Interdictors, destroyers, etc.

When I started playing Eve, I NEVER wanted to fly battleships, /perhaps/ a command ship.... But All I wanted was to be an awesome frigate pilot.

... Until I found out I /had/ to specialize in battleships for Level IV missions to make enough ISK to pay for my addiction to getting blown up in my frigates. :)


As a frigate pilot, I want /way/ more opportunities for employment... I want there to be a a GOOD reason to bring frigates to a massive battleship, and especially capital ship fights.... Marauders with synergy bonuses with frigates accomplish this! This adds a great depth to game mechanics in pretty much every area of the game. (Okay, perhaps not mining, or exploration, or shipping, or ..) :p


Then you should be happy for the Command Ship changes since Command Ships are more viable than ever for frigates.

Also you can make a decent chunk of ISK doing high and low-sec complexes and scan-sites in a frigate.

I'm sorry someone misinformed you about your ability to make ISK in smaller ships but those opportunities do exist. CCP should not be shoe-horning in features to support a play-style.

Tzel Mayon wrote:
This is /complete/ crap.

ISK acquisition in Eve, (explicitly stated /many/ times by CCP, and others), is about the cooperation and exploitation of allies. This is how brand new pilots can actually make decent ISK in faction warfare. "Join a corp to make ISK! But trust no one!"


NONE of my recommendations about the new Marauders having Synergy with Frigates to have awesome hit and run mechanics in Eve had ANYTHING to do with making ISK. It was just to make the game /funner/ to play, and more ENJOYABLE for new players.

(Not everyone plays for the ISK.)

A "Siege Mode" Marauder is self-contradicting to the idea of "Harassment and Raiding and Marauding" if that Siege mode gives bonuses to Tank, but not so much to DPS and Range.


First off, working with allies qualifies as effort. Maybe I should have been more specific but generally organizing people, grouping up, and working toward a common goal takes effort.

Second, your idea has absolutely no basis in any sort of live gameplay. You've created this vision in your head of how this is going to work with nothing to back it up.
Khoul Ay'd
The Affiliation
#469 - 2013-08-30 04:43:16 UTC
SIR PRIME wrote:
Unless I'm missing something won't it basically allow you to solo kill any high sec pos?


SNIFF-SNIFF.... Do I smell a POS revamp on the wind? Big smile

The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it
Aus Unit727
Australia Federal Police
#470 - 2013-08-30 04:43:47 UTC
Pretty sure some one would have said it but . They wont work in any decent fleet. you took away the 90% web which was nearly the best PVP think it had going for it. While I love the immunity to EWAR with out the web and the stationany area part you wont be able to kill any think. and if there going to be these active tanked gods you seem to want them to be change one hi slot or a mid on the paladin / kronos so they can do dual cap booster scram web and MJD.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2013-08-30 04:45:26 UTC
Roime wrote:
This is a very nice idea and I love that you came up with new stuff!

The only threat to the blink -> bastion idea is on-grid probing. Without that, you could hope deal with approaching tackle with your amazing dps projection, but when it warps at 0 on you, you are hosed.

However, the tank in bastion means the opposing gang needs really serious numbers to break you.

Of course, a small gang of marauders will tear tackle off each others, as they are completely free from formation, being independent operators. Picture held by a slaved, dual plate Proteus which is surrounded by 6 Kronoses, 50km apart, and each one has you in Null optimal. With Talos tracking.



Moridin Mandarb wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war.


But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has.


In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps.


40 battleships is not PVP, it's blobbing, and only very few players in this game cares what happens in those- it's not interesting no matter which ship you are sitting in.







"Blobbing" is pvp.
Aus Unit727
Australia Federal Police
#472 - 2013-08-30 04:46:52 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
... its not good in L4s...

Wat


its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s


Higher tank equal's more damage mods and damage applaction mods high run time please unstuipd yourself.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#473 - 2013-08-30 04:53:31 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:

And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.

On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to.
Sturmwolke
#474 - 2013-08-30 04:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

PALADIN
  • Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
    • 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

    KRONOS
  • (Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
    • 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

    You know that this will massively boost the desirability for the Vindicator (a pirate BS) yes?
    The only remaining battleship with a 90% web.

    You don't see anything wrong with that?
    Old Man Sam
    Fishy Old Men in Space
    #475 - 2013-08-30 04:56:51 UTC
    I dont really like the new changes, I feel its to close to what already exists. Why not try something new?

    Why not have 2 modes for the ship: Speed mode(normal mode), and attack mode(bastion mod active). In speed mode, the ship is like the interceptor of battle ships, capable of hitting cruser speeds using a microwarp drive. In speed mode, it also enjoys reduced cap usage on MWD, and faster usage of MJD mods. It also has laughable resists, and no bonuses to weapons, nor repair. For laughs, they could all have a 200m3 (or so) drone bay, and 25mb drone control (50 for gallenti?)

    Then, the bread and butter: attack mode. Costing the ability to activate MWD's, (and possibly MJD, else long cool down time) most of its speed (we talking half the speed of a normal battle ship, or even a quarter) for the resists of a tech 2 ship (possibly slightly less, due to its lack of specialization?) and a bonus to armor/shield repair/regen amount. Missile ships would see better missile damage, and speed. Gun ships would see better tracking, fall off and optimal, and a bit of damage. Drone control would also go up in this mode, possibly much more for gallenti, possibly not. And since we want local tank so badly, no RR fo you!

    The bastion module its self would be almost required on the vessel, as it would be very fragile without the module active. Giving the ship the ability to warp in attack mode, and switch between the 2 modes on the fly (like a covert ops cloak, giving it a five second activation time, and 5 second cool down) would make the vessel very swift on its feet. weapons timer would not be needed, given the changes to the whole design.


    Im really just throwing ideas to the wind here, but I really dont like the ideas of the ship currently on the table. being fully unable to move for 75 seconds? (one does not simply train to V) sacrificing your ability to tank in order to move in jilted jumps? It feels like an awkward ship to fly.

    (if this is for some reason a double post, forgive me.)
    Cade Windstalker
    #476 - 2013-08-30 05:01:35 UTC
    Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
    teehee, getting people to turn their safeties off! that should be fun.

    and that certainly seems like a lot of blaster range, does the stacking penalty apply to the optimal/falloff bonus? or was that falloff within 55-60km, as in ~20km and then 35-40km or so of falloff? oh right falloff bonus (useless imo, as you probably want rails)

    I think the kronos could probably use a bit more damage, the ability to use 3x sentry drones with its rails brought it up in dps to be nearly competitive with other marauders. although I will probably be able to throw a t2 damage rig on the paladin too. and with the range bonus on the paladin wow! A 3 damage mod, t2 rof rig, and 3 sentry drone kronos does about the same damage as a 3 damage mod with 2 sentry drone paladin. with the changes I'll probably have both with 4 damage mods and t2 rof rigs. oh yes and that was in EFT without reload time.... with reload time the kronos just looks sad.

    so with reload time, 4 faction damage mods, t2 rof rigs, 5% damage implants, no drones, and close range faction ammo, I present tachys vs 425mm railguns!
    kronos: 982 dps (without reload time 1007 dps), aw shucks, lets try null 1166 dps/1185 dps reload time isn't so bad with blasters, and for epeen numbers void! 1633/1658
    paladin: 1146 dps (1354 with conflag and 967 with scorch)
    varg: 1165 with its close range ammo and 800s

    425s and tachys have fairly similar stats (well except for damage) on a mission boat. I don't know if the ability to switch to blasters makes up for it. Null just slightly out damages a tach paladin, and well has nowhere near the range. especially vs a what 60-70km optimal tach paladin with the change? and if we are admitting the web bonus is useless for most missions well that just takes any other advantage blasters could possibly have (outside of a very small number of missions)

    as a railboat the kronos just comes up short. and well as an immobile blaster boat... well "immobile blaster boat"


    I'm really failing to see the problem here. The Kronos is going to have some of the best damage projection to 100 meters out of all of these ships. The Vargur is going to have to suffer through low Arty DPS and fire-rate, the Paladin is probably its best competition with Beam Lasers and that optimal bonus but the Kronos should still do pretty well. No clue how the Golem is going to do but probably not bad if it can chuck Torps out to 100, it won't be able to alpha frigates though which will cut down on completion times.


    Second with the exception of lasers Hybrids have the fastest reload times so they should be taking less of a DPS hit than any other weapon.

    I'd prefer to see the Kronos get a range bonus for Hybrids but that's also sort of a Caldari thing so... meh? I for one am fine with jumping into the enemy Battleships in a mission rather than away and then anchoring for hilarious tracking and tank. Add on the increased tracking and there shouldn't be much of a problem.
    Ariak Rykard
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #477 - 2013-08-30 05:02:37 UTC
    Old Man Sam wrote:
    I dont really like the new changes, I feel its to close to what already exists. Why not try something new?

    Why not have 2 modes for the ship: Speed mode(normal mode), and attack mode(bastion mod active). In speed mode, the ship is like the interceptor of battle ships, capable of hitting cruser speeds using a microwarp drive. In speed mode, it also enjoys reduced cap usage on MWD, and faster usage of MJD mods. It also has laughable resists, and no bonuses to weapons, nor repair. For laughs, they could all have a 200m3 (or so) drone bay, and 25mb drone control (50 for gallenti?)

    Then, the bread and butter: attack mode. Costing the ability to activate MWD's, (and possibly MJD, else long cool down time) most of its speed (we talking half the speed of a normal battle ship, or even a quarter) for the resists of a tech 2 ship (possibly slightly less, due to its lack of specialization?) and a bonus to armor/shield repair/regen amount. Missile ships would see better missile damage, and speed. Gun ships would see better tracking, fall off and optimal, and a bit of damage. Drone control would also go up in this mode, possibly much more for gallenti, possibly not. And since we want local tank so badly, no RR fo you!

    The bastion module its self would be almost required on the vessel, as it would be very fragile without the module active. Giving the ship the ability to warp in attack mode, and switch between the 2 modes on the fly (like a covert ops cloak, giving it a five second activation time, and 5 second cool down) would make the vessel very swift on its feet. weapons timer would not be needed, given the changes to the whole design.


    Im really just throwing ideas to the wind here, but I really dont like the ideas of the ship currently on the table. being fully unable to move for 75 seconds? (one does not simply train to V) sacrificing your ability to tank in order to move in jilted jumps? It feels like an awkward ship to fly.

    (if this is for some reason a double post, forgive me.)


    WAY better proposal.
    While you're at it, throw in Battloid mode.
    Transformers in space, Robotech-style mechamorphosis.
    FULL OF WIN

        ̿ ̿̿̿̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\==((•̪●))==/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ ̿ b(",b) ob(-.0)do (d.")d
    Ersahi Kir
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #478 - 2013-08-30 05:07:54 UTC
    Aus Unit727 wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    ... its not good in L4s...

    Wat


    its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s


    Higher tank equal's more damage mods and damage applaction mods high run time please unstuipd yourself.


    How many more damage mods can you fit on a mission ship?

    Most level 4 mission runner ships I've seen have 4 damage mods and 2 or 3 range/application mods. With stacking penalties you're not going to get much more out of a focused level 4 runner even if you had another slot.
    zbaaca
    Republic Military Tax Avoiders
    #479 - 2013-08-30 05:10:31 UTC
    Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

    1. more room for webs on the minny recons, +60% painters are nice

    2. I think missile velocity is a pretty interesting bonus. plus faster missiles -> a smaller delay on getting damage on target.

    1 on small ganks 1-2 recons are fine
    2 it's interesting bonus only for torps for cruise with skills at 4 shortest one are precision at 94km with lock range at 93. with bastion module i'd fit SensBooster for max range instead of TP

    Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

    nahjustwarpin
    SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
    #480 - 2013-08-30 05:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: nahjustwarpin
    alot of people will still do missions in their domis or nightmares, why?

    because bastion mode doesn't make running missions faster. It allows to tank more, but missions already can be tanked in mjd domis, machs and nightmares.

    It's a gimmick idea without any direction.