These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#501 - 2013-08-30 06:45:46 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Rainhailer wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping


What about wormhole activations?
A tenfold increase is mass will make them as massive as an Archon.

Can a dreadnought jump through a WH when in seige mode? I'd expect these to behave in the same way. If they can jump, well that makes them a handy WH closing tool (for high-mass WHs), doesn't it?


No, the Dreadnaught has too much mass. The most mass that a Wormhole can take at one time is 135000000 which is just over a Phoenix's 132000000(the most massive non-super Capital). These come it at around the mass of a Chimera Carrier with the Bastion module active. Potentially quite useful for Finesse closing though.

Debora Tsung wrote:
I remember that someone in F&I proposed a similar idea a few days ago. I think I made quite the bad jokes about that (or at least I wanted to)... I can't remember who initially posted that, but i still wanted to apologize... profoundly.

Seeing these stats makes me feel al warm and fuzzy. Bear

I love you CCP Ytterbium. Big smile


I was in the thread you're talking about, the idea posted there was hilarious OP and included things like a 500% damage buff, full T2 resists, and other completely imbalanced hilarity. This is much more reasonable and involves fair trade-offs as opposed to "siege up and everything dies".
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#502 - 2013-08-30 06:48:47 UTC
Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi....

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment

Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#503 - 2013-08-30 06:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi....


Same.... i just got into my Bloody Kronos for PVP and those 90% webs on it is a must.

Why the Hell would I use a Kronos for PVP after the change over a Vindi without it's 90% webs?

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Cade Windstalker
#504 - 2013-08-30 06:57:28 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi....


Same.... i just got into my Bloody Kronos for PVP and those 90% webs on it is a must.

Why the Hell would I use a Kronos for PVP after the change over a Vindi without it's 90% webs?


Again, probably means the web bonus on the Vindi is going as well, which makes a lot of sense.

It's horrendously powerful, especially with Blasters because it gives any sort of smaller opponent the option to either fight where your tracking is good enough to hit him or fight where your tracking doesn't matter.

At longer ranges you can't break his tank and if he catches you then there's no escape.

As much fun as it is to use a bonus like this it's not much fun to fight against and really strikes me, especially combined with the high DPS nature of the Vindicator, as a relic of the days before the Nano-Nerf where every ship with these bonuses was simply adjusted and left to sit when the original 90% webs went away.

With how powerful webs are without this bonus and how absolutely silly this bonus is on the ships that have it I really can't say I'll be sorry to see it go.
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#505 - 2013-08-30 06:58:22 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Retmas wrote:
also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)?

Multiplicative, thus 72%.

Further question about the non-stacking penalties. Reactive Armor Hardeners are supposed to not have stacking penalties, just like the DC. However, they actually do have stacking penalties with each other! This has been tested repeatedly by Uni members, calculating out every little minute detail. Will the new Marauder bonus also be stacking penalized with the DC and RAH, or will this be fixed?
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#506 - 2013-08-30 06:59:00 UTC
i don't get the module for pvp, like a 1b sniper battleship?

without at least a damage upgrade it a liability instead of an asset
there's a reason we're pretty risk averse with blackops, isn't going to change with marauders

at least a dread can do a ton of damage and its insurable, this just die



take of the assistance restriction and tank bonus maybe?
immobile tanky sniper platform is reasonable

will still get eaten alive by bombers though
Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#507 - 2013-08-30 07:00:28 UTC
After reading this entire thread, and consideration, I have to comment.

I have only used my paladin for pve (missions and incursions), so my comments here are from that angle.

Overall these changes are interesting, and were a total surprise for me. I never in a blue moon expected a siege module for marauders.

My main worry is the removal of the web bonus. Currently, using 2x 60% webs, I can stop ANY mission frig, even the elite ones and kill them with mega pulse. Some of the worst ones are the elite minmatar, like you see in Worlds Collide. Using drones on elite frigs is stressful, they attack them as soon as you launch them. If you end up with say, 4x elite frigs close orbiting you, your chance of killing all 4 before you run out of light drones is pretty slim.

Of course you can unsiege and mjd away from them, but doing all that in every mission with close frigates will get old fast.

I would rather keep the web bonus and drop the tractor beam range bonus if you force me to choose. Having to mjd all over the place during missions, will end up having wrecks scattered all over the place. The 48km tractor range will be half useless. I think the tractor bonus should just be dropped for something more useful, especially if it lets us keep the web bonus.

Is there a reason the sensor strength was still left in nerfed mode?

Incursions:

The paladin is an excellent incursion ship now, with these changes, it won't be any longer. I'm talking about vanguards here. With no 90% webs, it will be restricted on what ships it can attack, having to only shoot whats been webbed by others. The siege module is also useless in vanguards. I doubt even with its boosted local tank, a sieged paladin can withstand full room aggro in a vanguard with no logi assistance. If the new sieged local tank IS strong enough to handle it, then I take back this specific complaint.

High Sec:

Why the heck does using the bastion module require safety off?? With safety off, the concord warnings for actions are disabled. Meaning mistakes are much more likely to happen, even among veteran pve players.

Also:

I'm an Amarr focused player. I have used the nightmare for years and am max skilled for it. I'm also max skill for paladin. I finally switched to the paladin after the tachyon change. Since I have no desire of flying capital ships, the paladin/nightmare are my end-game ships. There is nothing further for me to look forwards to. I hope ccp keeps this in mind, that these ships are VERY important to many players.

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.

Bleedingthrough
#508 - 2013-08-30 07:01:51 UTC
Do not like the changes at all. No one is going to use em for PvP!

- The mini siege is way to weak to justify being immune to RR and e-war for 80s/60s. At least give em a 100% damage bonus! TBH the immobility during mini siege is penalty enough. This is not a dread and has no big buffer! Remove immunity to RR.

Other things:
- Marauders e-war bonus was really nice.
- Sensor strength is needed! This is the main reason these ships suck at PvP. .. and price tag.
Cade Windstalker
#509 - 2013-08-30 07:06:39 UTC
Setsune Rin wrote:
i don't get the module for pvp, like a 1b sniper battleship?

without at least a damage upgrade it a liability instead of an asset
there's a reason we're pretty risk averse with blackops, isn't going to change with marauders

at least a dread can do a ton of damage and its insurable, this just die



take of the assistance restriction and tank bonus maybe?
immobile tanky sniper platform is reasonable

will still get eaten alive by bombers though


These are pretty clearly not supposed to be the kings of PvP.

Also remember that the Black-Ops Battleships are still on the queue for a re-balance and are likely getting split into combat and jump versions.

In general we don't need massively more DPS from T2 Battleships, they should justify their costs in other ways. Navy and Pirate Battleships are supposed to be the "T1 but a bit better" versions with very little utility per CCP's original T2/T3/Faction balance table (which I appear to have lost my link to Ugh )
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#510 - 2013-08-30 07:10:11 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi....


Same.... i just got into my Bloody Kronos for PVP and those 90% webs on it is a must.

Why the Hell would I use a Kronos for PVP after the change over a Vindi without it's 90% webs?


Again, probably means the web bonus on the Vindi is going as well, which makes a lot of sense.

It's horrendously powerful, especially with Blasters because it gives any sort of smaller opponent the option to either fight where your tracking is good enough to hit him or fight where your tracking doesn't matter.

At longer ranges you can't break his tank and if he catches you then there's no escape.

As much fun as it is to use a bonus like this it's not much fun to fight against and really strikes me, especially combined with the high DPS nature of the Vindicator, as a relic of the days before the Nano-Nerf where every ship with these bonuses was simply adjusted and left to sit when the original 90% webs went away.

With how powerful webs are without this bonus and how absolutely silly this bonus is on the ships that have it I really can't say I'll be sorry to see it go.


Aai.. the reason why the Kronos looks so good for PVP from my point of view in it's current form is because it is basicly a Mega on steroids with a web bonus and nuets.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Lixia Saran
Perkone
Caldari State
#511 - 2013-08-30 07:10:52 UTC
When can we see their updated model and transformation animation? :D
Aglais
Ice-Storm
Two Maidens One Chalice
#512 - 2013-08-30 07:11:37 UTC
I do not understand the direction of these changes. Some of them arguably fix some problems, but don't do it in a way that seems engaging. And in my opinion, that's a factor that needs to be considered too.

PvE aspects

I have never once used a MJD in PvE. It's far too quantized. I really mean this. Let's say I warp in to a pocket, and there's an acceleration gate 40 kilometers away. Great. I will overshoot it by 60 kilometers unless I do a whole bunch of wacky triangle stuff to land myself exactly on the gate. This will be a lot of tedious guesswork. They are already rather sluggish as it stands, and these changes will make them a downright chore to fly.

Furthermore, my Golem is fit with T2 modules. That's it. And it can already permatank literally every L4 I've ever attempted, with no worries of losing my ship. Not to mention, I'm fitting cruise missiles- with the recent buff to cruises, I barely see a reason to bother with torpedoes due to the fact that the damage loss you get from cruise missiles is way offset by the utterly obscene range cruise missiles offer, and the now non-lethargic flight time they have. I feel that faction/deadspace would just be utter overkill, and put me at a greater risk of being ganked.

So the Golem already has enough tank, and it already has enough damage projection. Why does it need this new module that in PvE just takes it completely over the top when that additional power isn't necessary? These changes do not alter my situation.

PvP aspects

Okay. So you claim you want them to be usable in PvP... But literally the only way is if they flip on the Bastion Module and become EWAR immune. Because you haven't changed their sensor strength at all. I'm not sold on this. Similar problems arise in PvP as in PvE from the quantized nature of the MJD. In large coordinated fleets, the MJD can be useful. The Marauders, what with their powerful active tanks, are not really standard fleet vessels. Because active tanking. In order to become useful in PvP, they must use this Bastion module. Which basically either locks them down in one position, or has them coast helplessly in one direction for a bit. I've always been told, if you stop moving, you're ******. Even with this massive increase in defense, you're stuck there for at least a minute, which could give driven groups pretty much a guaranteed kill by bringing in a large, extremely high damage fleet.

Attack/Combat hull mixup?

It seems to me that the 'high damage, excellent damage projection, obscene tank, low mobility' go hand in hand with the Combat line of battleships. But the four marauders are based off of Attack hulls. Please notice a pattern you've already engaged in with the HACs- the ones based off of the Attack hulls are fast, the ones based off of the combat ones are slow. You've gotten it backwards here, and have made T2 Combat hulls out of Attack ones. So why not save these changes for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? We do not really have 'specialized fast battleships'. The Machariel is an outlier, but does represent this role.

So instead of giving the Marauders the Bastion module, why not give them one that does the following:
-30% penaltyless resistance bonus for shield, armor and structure, as now
-Decreases signature radius by some undecided, reasonable quantity
-Improves capacitor economy of active tanking modules
-Massive reduction in 100MN MWD capacitor usage
-n% increase in weapon rate of fire, where n is a reasonable number
-Possible penalty to weapon range but nothing overwhelming.

Note the lack of EWAR immunity. That's because sensor strength is increased across the board to non-'hornet EC300s will have me permajammed into next year' levels. Further, these ships I think would have velocities, mass and agility on par with (or even less than in terms of mass) their T1 attack hull counterparts.

I don't know, I don't really like these changes very much. I guess one could argue that in a way it's allowing them to get into PvP, but it's... Not exactly the best way. These changes lack... 'Fun'. Marauders, post change, don't look like they'll be very fun to fly in any context. They're already not that great, and the alterations only prod them further down the path they're already on while removing things that made them tolerable. This post is probably dumb because it's after 1 AM.
Hentalia
Obvious Shell Corp
#513 - 2013-08-30 07:11:46 UTC
I've always been imagining something like this, while I normally fly T3 cruisers I'd really like to fly battleships, slowboating and tanking everything. With this module a sniping setup would be great. I'm really looking forward to this. Thinking up the possibilties with this right now :O
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#514 - 2013-08-30 07:15:58 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I was in the thread you're talking about, the idea posted there was hilarious OP and included things like a 500% damage buff, full T2 resists, and other completely imbalanced hilarity. This is much more reasonable and involves fair trade-offs as opposed to "siege up and everything dies".


Well, to be fair.

I said similiar.

Not the same. Big smile

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

IrJosy
Club 1621
#515 - 2013-08-30 07:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: IrJosy
Since Empire dwellers are getting a t2 battleship designed to run missions, any chance for some equal treatment for null sec dwellers?

Can we get some ships designed to run anomalies and simultaneously buff anomalies to give greater income?
Cade Windstalker
#516 - 2013-08-30 07:25:50 UTC
IrJosy wrote:
Since Empire dwellers are getting a t2 battleship designed to run missions, any chance for some equal treatment for null sec dwellers?

Can we get some ships designed to run anomalies and simultaneously buff anomalies to give greater income?


This should be able to comfortably run a lot of 'lower'-class anomalies. For the biggest ones though you're still going to need a fleet and maybe a carrier.

For reference you should be able to comfortably tank a Vargur to 2k DPS omni in Bastion. With faction/site specific resists you can probably achieve a much higher tank, especially if you pick your ship based on the rats you're fighting.

Between this and the potential for MJD kiting in these ships they are definitely going to see use in null-sec anoms.

Cannibal Kane wrote:

Aai.. the reason why the Kronos looks so good for PVP from my point of view in it's current form is because it is basicly a Mega on steroids with a web bonus and nuets.


Which is only helping my point that this bonus is probably being eliminated by CCP for being over-powered. That it can take an otherwise lack-luster hull like the Kronus and push it into PvP relevancy is extremely telling.

QT McWhiskers
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#517 - 2013-08-30 07:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: QT McWhiskers
What follows is simply my opinion.

So without a damage bonus, you have not expanded their pvp use at all. First the only ship I see being used by this change for pvp is the vargur. MAYBE the kronos as well using it with null ammo to hit out at scorch range, but a rokh can do that cheaper and better.

Also the decreased time between jumps for the MJD is the WRONG BONUS. I will tell you why. Group jumps into your gate camp. Group uses their MJDs to get a 100km perch on you. You align and use your MJD on said group of people who now can not move. The bonus should be to range of the MJD. Instead of 100km, its now 200km. Sure it could be said that you could just combat them and warp to them. But exactly how many groups are going to have a combat prober capable of combating them out, and then warping on top of them and then letting the fleet warp on top of him within 64 seconds. (The time of the bastion module at level 4)

This brings me to my next issue. The bastion module timer skill. 5 percent per level is a BS number. Especially with it at 80 seconds. At level 4 it will last for 64 seconds. At level 3 it will last for 68 seconds. You get the point. Each level only takes away 4 seconds. The great majority of people who will only be using this for pve will only train the skill to level 3. (This is doubly true for high sec.) The module should be 120 second base and 20 percent per level. This will actually put people in harms way longer, and it will actually make that skill worth a damn. At level 4, it would make the cycle time 84 seconds. Level 5 would be the 60 seconds you were fond of for the original skill. Also the skill should just be tactical weapon reconfiguration. (That way dread pilots will have a reason to level their siege skill to 5.)

And back to the first point. No damage bonus? Seriously? This is not a mini dread without a damage bonus. Its a max range sniper. Thats it. A 15 percent per level damage bonus for the tac weap reconf skill would make these ships deadly in combat. And would also justify actually using a ship this expensive in combat. Currently the only reason to use any of these ships, in combat, is that the paladin and the kronos are sometimes cheaper than the Vindi and they get the same web bonus. But imagine titan bridging 50 kronos and some armor huggins and guardians into the middle of an enemy fleet. You would destroy a ton of them in the minute it took for the module and then you could all just MJD out. (the guards and huggins already heading in one direction so as to keep up with the kronos.)

The changes are on the right track, they just need tweaks.
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#518 - 2013-08-30 07:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaStyle
Aglais wrote:
I do not understand the direction of these changes. Some of them arguably fix some problems, but don't do it in a way that seems engaging. And in my opinion, that's a factor that needs to be considered too.

PvE aspects

I have never once used a MJD in PvE. It's far too quantized. I really mean this. Let's say I warp in to a pocket, and there's an acceleration gate 40 kilometers away. Great. I will overshoot it by 60 kilometers unless I do a whole bunch of wacky triangle stuff to land myself exactly on the gate. This will be a lot of tedious guesswork. They are already rather sluggish as it stands, and these changes will make them a downright chore to fly.

Furthermore, my Golem is fit with T2 modules. That's it. And it can already permatank literally every L4 I've ever attempted, with no worries of losing my ship. Not to mention, I'm fitting cruise missiles- with the recent buff to cruises, I barely see a reason to bother with torpedoes due to the fact that the damage loss you get from cruise missiles is way offset by the utterly obscene range cruise missiles offer, and the now non-lethargic flight time they have. I feel that faction/deadspace would just be utter overkill, and put me at a greater risk of being ganked.

So the Golem already has enough tank, and it already has enough damage projection. Why does it need this new module that in PvE just takes it completely over the top when that additional power isn't necessary? These changes do not alter my situation.

PvP aspects

Okay. So you claim you want them to be usable in PvP... But literally the only way is if they flip on the Bastion Module and become EWAR immune. Because you haven't changed their sensor strength at all. I'm not sold on this. Similar problems arise in PvP as in PvE from the quantized nature of the MJD. In large coordinated fleets, the MJD can be useful. The Marauders, what with their powerful active tanks, are not really standard fleet vessels. Because active tanking. In order to become useful in PvP, they must use this Bastion module. Which basically either locks them down in one position, or has them coast helplessly in one direction for a bit. I've always been told, if you stop moving, you're ******. Even with this massive increase in defense, you're stuck there for at least a minute, which could give driven groups pretty much a guaranteed kill by bringing in a large, extremely high damage fleet.

Attack/Combat hull mixup?

It seems to me that the 'high damage, excellent damage projection, obscene tank, low mobility' go hand in hand with the Combat line of battleships. But the four marauders are based off of Attack hulls. Please notice a pattern you've already engaged in with the HACs- the ones based off of the Attack hulls are fast, the ones based off of the combat ones are slow. You've gotten it backwards here, and have made T2 Combat hulls out of Attack ones. So why not save these changes for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? We do not really have 'specialized fast battleships'. The Machariel is an outlier, but does represent this role.

So instead of giving the Marauders the Bastion module, why not give them one that does the following:
-30% penaltyless resistance bonus for shield, armor and structure, as now
-Decreases signature radius by some undecided, reasonable quantity
-Improves capacitor economy of active tanking modules
-Massive reduction in 100MN MWD capacitor usage
-n% increase in weapon rate of fire, where n is a reasonable number
-Possible penalty to weapon range but nothing overwhelming.

Note the lack of EWAR immunity. That's because sensor strength is increased across the board to non-'hornet EC300s will have me permajammed into next year' levels. Further, these ships I think would have velocities, mass and agility on par with (or even less than in terms of mass) their T1 attack hull counterparts.

I don't know, I don't really like these changes very much. I guess one could argue that in a way it's allowing them to get into PvP, but it's... Not exactly the best way. These changes lack... 'Fun'. Marauders, post change, don't look like they'll be very fun to fly in any context. They're already not that great, and the alterations only prod them further down the path they're already on while removing things that made them tolerable. This post is probably dumb because it's after 1 AM.


I agree the current changes are kinda stupid, usable in PvP? ROFL YEAH RIGHT!
warGasm81
Angels and Devils
Get Off My Lawn
#519 - 2013-08-30 07:28:08 UTC
WOW...why can't you people :CCP: make the marauder a marauder...instead of trying to gimp it more by being a mini dread that no one will use?


If your going to do anything w/ them...try this...perhaps


-ability to jump to covert cynos
-cannot fit a covert cloak
-increase drone bay by 3% (per level of the skill Marauder)
-decrease signature radius by 35% (since it is a tech 2)
-increase sensor strength by 10% (per level of the skill Marauder)



How about working something like that out, instead of make an already worthless ship....even more worthless.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#520 - 2013-08-30 07:31:04 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction.
Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps.
And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..Sad


Other than that.. AWESOME!

I have to agree ading a tractor bonus is just a waste.


Also would it be possible to ad a damage bonus for the Bastion Module.... or that would be to op Question

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude