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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#601 - 2011-11-13 13:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyvhiros
"give my ship a sprint module which only I'll be able o use (as a gallente) and that I'm gona use to close in on my targets to use my blasters"

So the solution on blasters will be making the whole kiting strategy useless? Sry that doesnt sound like a solution for the blaster problem to me, but rather like a "give me a buff with which ill be able to nullify my enemys advantages and play a scenario where I have the advantage".

"make my blasters have longer range and more falloff"

Sounds for me like "make my blasters be AC's", doesnt solve the blaster problem either, just makes them AC's.

Blasters have actually the highest DPS and tracking by far, in exchange for the shortest range, thats what they are all about. If u dont like the short range, you shouldnt have chosen gallente as your main faction.

Now to the blaster problem:

I like the Idea of implementing new webdrones as some1 said before (mid and small size), thats just what blaster ships need. Gallente ships have huge drone bays, that would give them some additional space to fit in those drones, while other factions wouldnt be able to do so, or at least wouldnt have it that easy. In addition, that goes in communion with "moddern gallentean warfare phylosophy" which relies on blasters and drones to beat their foes, rather than on extreme speed or long ranges.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#602 - 2011-11-13 14:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Cyvhiros wrote:
If u dont like the short range, you shouldnt have chosen gallente as your main faction.



When I started to play EVE I was told by ingame people and game masters who helped new players that all faction have their strenght and weak points and that all factions are equal.
Now I know better and I know that some game masters talk bullshit to new players.

Fine, I shouldn't have chosen Gallente, I'm good with that, just reimburse my SP for Hybrids and Gallente ships and I'm fine with that!

Try to play PVE with Gallente, try to do missions and compare it with Caldari, go do some PVP and compare it with Minmatar.
I do not want Gallente to be the best, its fine when Caldari has better PVE ships and Minmatar better PVP and Amarr better buffer tanked ships.
But I ask myself why a Tengu needs 30 minutes for a mission and a proteus more than an hour (I fly both and I have compared it several times)? Why is the Tengu able to do great damage on PVE at more than 100km where a Proteus has 5 km with blasters and the other known problems with rails??? Why Minmatar has strategies where you just can not win with a blaster boat becouse you will never come into range? And why CCP needs years to see this problems and propably will need more years to fix it? And why game masters don't tell new players "Hey, Gallente have crap weapons so only choose them if you really like the philolophy..."

Just reimburse my SP and I'm fine!
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#603 - 2011-11-13 14:31:32 UTC
Hamox wrote:
Cyvhiros wrote:
If u dont like the short range, you shouldnt have chosen gallente as your main faction.


When I started to play EVE I was told by ingame people and game masters who helped new players that all faction have their strenght and weak points and that all factions are equal.




All factions are actually "similar" (not equal but similar), or should I ask for a SP reinbursement for playing caldari and being useless in PVP with 9 of 10 of my ships? All factions have their handicaps and strengths. Gallente have biggest drone bay space, strongest weapons, wepons with the highest tracking, they can also use the weapons with the longest range (RG) they are the second fastest ships... those are plenty of bonuses.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2011-11-13 15:19:09 UTC
Cyvhiros wrote:

All factions are actually "similar" (not equal but similar), or should I ask for a SP reinbursement for playing caldari and being useless in PVP with 9 of 10 of my ships? All factions have their handicaps and strengths. Gallente have biggest drone bay space, strongest weapons, wepons with the highest tracking, they can also use the weapons with the longest range (RG) they are the second fastest ships... those are plenty of bonuses.


Blasters have huge damage but you loose all the time with flying to your targets. In dead space where you can not use your MWD and you have on the first wave 2 groups that are 80 km from each other what benetit do you have from your damage?
Even if you try to clear one group you will spend most of the time with flying after your targets.
You loose minutes to fly to the targets just to make 10% more damage?

Ok, you might say, hey use the weapons with the great range? OK, lets equip rails and loose hours trying to hit a frigate that is orbiting me?

Still my main argument is the Tengu, I kill targets on 100km distance without problems and I kill targets at close dinstance without any problems. On long distance im still faster than rails and on close I'm still faster than blasters. Why? Becouse targets never stay in optimal range of my blasters, and after I have killed the first target with blasters my second target is 20 km away from me. So again I need to fly to the target... ... in the meantime the Tengu has killed 2 targets until I reach it.

And btw, you are right about Caldari and being unable to PVP properly and you should complain about it. Every faction should be able to PVE and PVP properly with some strenght and weaknesses but the reality looks a lot different. We are both paying clients and we deserve more than just a dev starting a thread and never again giving an answer...
We waste our time here in this thread and we even do not know if somebody of them is reading it. The only thing we see is some useless changes on Sisi and everybody askes himself if the dev has ever played the game with Gallente and Hybrids or if he is just pulling out some numbers out of a excel sheet of EFT.

So whats the point of all this? Nothing. Well, even worse than nothing. A CEO who talkes about that they will listen more to the community and a dev that doesn't answer in his thread will only leave pissed players behind who will leave EVE if THEY do not improve situation.

As I mentioned before, we are all paying clients and if EVE seems very cheap to you just check out how much you pay per year.
Hentes Zsemle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#605 - 2011-11-13 15:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hentes Zsemle
I like the idea of fixing blaster ships with web drones, but then please be sure that all gallente blaster boats have spare droneBAY for said web drones, besides the drones they already can use. For example, 75m^3 space on thorax and deimos at least, assuming that there are going to be light web drones.

It would also mean that there is a point in using dones on ships which have very small drone bays, like the enyo.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Infinite Pew
#606 - 2011-11-13 17:32:49 UTC
If CCP give us small and medium web drones I will use them to dictate range more while using lasers and ACs. I like the idea of more web drones but it just gives other ships more tools to kite blasters.
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#607 - 2011-11-13 17:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyvhiros
Spugg Galdon wrote:
If CCP give us small and medium web drones I will use them to dictate range more while using lasers and ACs. I like the idea of more web drones but it just gives other ships more tools to kite blasters.



Not really, as the drone bays of most minnie and amarr ships are way smaller, compared to the ones of gallentean ships

eka:

rupture 30m^3 vs throax 50m^3

Tempest 75m^3 vs megathron125m^3

Cyclone40m^3 vs brutix 50m^3

etc...

Considdering that they could just give gallentean ships a small boost to drone bay (maybe 10-20/25m^3 more so they have additional space for dps/web combinations), they would be able to put on the map a higher number of bigger drones. (for example a hurricane could only use 3 medweb, while a brutix would put out 5, thats kinda 40% movement reduction, versus the hurricane only 27% speed reduction, which is 13% more. so it'll be like a 13% movement increase for the gallente ship.

Same for amarr, just in some cases even more notable (abbadon 75m^3, omen 15m^3, maller 0m^3,...)

Plus the fact that if you equip stasis drones ur dps goes down, giving the persecuting gallente ship more time to catch up.

Hamox:

I do agree with u in that something needs to be done, but if we give gallente ships a straight speed bonus + a DPS bonus + a range bonus, were going to make gallente OP, and thats what we dont want.
As EvE players, its also our duty to try to find a reasonable solution, which wont alter the game ballance. There4 I agreed with the drone idea, because it would bring in more versatility to the game, while gallentean ships are generally bennefitted of drone improvements.
This thread, is full of good ideas, but also of a lot of cry and nosense, such as a 25% range and dps bonus for blasters, or stuff like that. Of course CCP is not paying attention to this, lets be reasonable and propose productive stuff and those things will also get the attention they deserve.
Roger Soros
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#608 - 2011-11-13 17:59:59 UTC
Rail
1) Hyperion and Mega still cannot fit a full rack of 425-II and a decent armor tank they need more powergrid and cpu given tha fact that you need a cap booster+mwd on every decent rail fit for fleets
2) 425 damage still to low compared to projectile turrets of the same caliber + capacitor usage and tracking make them whorse on every aspect
3) T2 ammo still remain useless compared to factions
4) ammo type granularity still overkill, lessen them pls
Lekgoa
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#609 - 2011-11-13 18:11:54 UTC
Hamox wrote:
Cyvhiros wrote:
If u dont like the short range, you shouldnt have chosen gallente as your main faction.

But I ask myself why a Tengu needs 30 minutes for a mission and a proteus more than an hour (I fly both and I have compared it several times)? Why is the Tengu able to do great damage on PVE at more than 100km where a Proteus has 5 km with blasters and the other known problems with rails???
Just reimburse my SP and I'm fine!


WTF are you doing in a Proteus for PvE? Domi for missions, Ishtar for exploration, problem solved.

Web drones: we need mediums, not smalls, and they need to have a decent bit of hp (on par with medium combat drones). Also, I think a lot of non-Gallente ships need to have their drone bandwidth reduced considerably, and some Gallente ships should get a bit more drone bay. Gallente is supposed to be THE dominant drone race after all, and those changes would help make up for hybrids' suckiness.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2011-11-13 18:18:34 UTC
Cyvhiros wrote:

Hamox:

I do agree with u in that something needs to be done, but if we give gallente ships a straight speed bonus + a DPS bonus + a range bonus, were going to make gallente OP, and thats what we dont want.
As EvE players, its also our duty to try to find a reasonable solution, which wont alter the game ballance. There4 I agreed with the drone idea, because it would bring in more versatility to the game, while gallentean ships are generally bennefitted of drone improvements.
This thread, is full of good ideas, but also of a lot of cry and nosense, such as a 25% range and dps bonus for blasters, or stuff like that. Of course CCP is not paying attention to this, lets be reasonable and propose productive stuff and those things will also get the attention they deserve.


I don't want Gallente to be OP and I never asked for more range, dps and so on. I'm just disappointed becouse when this thread started I had the dream that they are going to address the problems seriously. Now I woke up and I'm afraid that thise little changes on Sisi will stay there for a few more months before they do little more few changes.


Roger Soros wrote:
Rail
1) Hyperion and Mega still cannot fit a full rack of 425-II and a decent armor tank they need more powergrid and cpu given tha fact that you need a cap booster+mwd on every decent rail fit for fleets
2) 425 damage still to low compared to projectile turrets of the same caliber + capacitor usage and tracking make them whorse on every aspect
3) T2 ammo still remain useless compared to factions
4) ammo type granularity still overkill, lessen them pls


I would go the other way, I would increase the damage a lot but also the power grid usage a little bit.
That way you would equip 350mm with a decent tank and still good damage or 425mm for great damage when you have logistics in background that keep you alive becouse you dont have PG left for a great tank. If you just give the ship more power grid then why should I use smaller weapons like the 350mm? Pilots should have the choice, otherwise everything will end up with a FOTM.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#611 - 2011-11-13 18:36:09 UTC
[quote=Cyvhiros]
I do agree with u in that something needs to be done, but if we give gallente ships a straight speed bonus + a DPS bonus + a range bonus, were going to make gallente OP, and thats what we dont want.



Anyone can use drones. Fixing a ship is not done by fixing drones.

Blasters don't need a range bonus. Just damage and speed.

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2011-11-13 18:37:23 UTC
Lekgoa wrote:
Hamox wrote:
Cyvhiros wrote:
If u dont like the short range, you shouldnt have chosen gallente as your main faction.

But I ask myself why a Tengu needs 30 minutes for a mission and a proteus more than an hour (I fly both and I have compared it several times)? Why is the Tengu able to do great damage on PVE at more than 100km where a Proteus has 5 km with blasters and the other known problems with rails???
Just reimburse my SP and I'm fine!


WTF are you doing in a Proteus for PvE? Domi for missions, Ishtar for exploration, problem solved.

Web drones: we need mediums, not smalls, and they need to have a decent bit of hp (on par with medium combat drones). Also, I think a lot of non-Gallente ships need to have their drone bandwidth reduced considerably, and some Gallente ships should get a bit more drone bay. Gallente is supposed to be THE dominant drone race after all, and those changes would help make up for hybrids' suckiness.



Nothing worng with using the Proteus for missions, but it should not take an hour to do a mission that a tengu can do in half, what mission? how is it fit? Maybe Worlds Collide might take 50minutes an hour tops and thats to backtrack and kill everything
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#613 - 2011-11-13 18:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Nemesor wrote:
[quote=Cyvhiros]
I do agree with u in that something needs to be done, but if we give gallente ships a straight speed bonus + a DPS bonus + a range bonus, were going to make gallente OP, and thats what we dont want.




Anyone can use drones. Fixing a ship is not done by fixing drones.

Blasters don't need a range bonus. Just damage and speed.
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#614 - 2011-11-13 18:51:56 UTC
Nemesor wrote:


Anyone can use drones. Fixing a ship is not done by fixing drones.

Blasters don't need a range bonus. Just damage and speed.




The point is we are not fixing ships, this is not a thread about it, nor are we speaking about this, we are trying to fix a "phylosophy", meaning the way gallente fight, because there is where something is wrong.

Besides every1 can use drones but not everyone can use drones as good as gallente can, they are suposed to be a vital piece in gallentean warfare, WHY NOT MAKE THAT TRUE!!.

Besides I agree in that gallente need a push up in their drone bays, and others a small nerf, especially minmatars should get a few less drones, having the drone space on tempest, hurricane, mael nerfed a bit.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#615 - 2011-11-13 19:19:17 UTC
I support new webifier drones and increased drone bays for Gallente ships. However it is not without issues.

As stated previously all ships can use these and although Gallente would be able to carry more and switch between combat drones and these it may be that some of the stats would need to be looked at.

Perhaps increasing the volume of the dones but keeping the bandwidth would allow other races to carry only a few. For example a Rupy can throw out three medium drones and a Thorax five however the difference between the speed losses is only 3.9% as three is the optimal number due to stacking penalties. If a medium webifier drone was 15m3 and the Thorax drone bay was 75m3 than perhaps that would change.

Light Drone 5%
x1 5%
x2 9.3%
x3 12.2%
x4 13.6%
x5 14.1%

Medium Drone 10 %
x1 10%
x2 18.7%
x3 24.4%
x4 27.2%
x5 28.3%

Heavy Drone 20%
x1 20%
x2 37.4%
x3 48.8%
x4 54.5%
x5 56.6%

Regardless Blaster DPS might need improving as the Gallente ships need combat drones for a third damage type and to bring them on par with Minmatar.

Or perhaps if there was no stacking penalty but they did not stack with normal webs and there was a limit to the reduction then the difference between the 3 and 5 drone max would be larger.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#616 - 2011-11-13 20:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Lekgoa wrote:
Hamox wrote:
Cyvhiros wrote:
If u dont like the short range, you shouldnt have chosen gallente as your main faction.

But I ask myself why a Tengu needs 30 minutes for a mission and a proteus more than an hour (I fly both and I have compared it several times)? Why is the Tengu able to do great damage on PVE at more than 100km where a Proteus has 5 km with blasters and the other known problems with rails???
Just reimburse my SP and I'm fine!


WTF are you doing in a Proteus for PvE? Domi for missions, Ishtar for exploration, problem solved.



It is just an example...
Compare T3 vs T3, and HAC vs HAC and so on.

A T3 costs me more than 800 M ISK, what wrong about comparing a Proteus with a Tengu for PVE? The main difference in their usability is the weapon system they use. Why should a Proteus with Hybrids not be able to do PVE properly? Why has it always to be the Ishtar?
Btw, you wrote already the problem: Domi missions and Ishtar exploration, both Drone Boats.
We are only talking about PVP, but PVP is not all in this game, is it?
This thread is about hybrids and comparing Hybrids vs other weapon systems in a T3 cruiser is what I have done.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#617 - 2011-11-13 20:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
Sigras wrote:
To mare wrote:
Imrik86 wrote:

If you buff blaster boats base speed, people will just fit ACs and have a better kite boat than Minmatar itself. Nerfing Gallente agility also doesn't make sense at all, since they require good enough agility to orbit at the very tight range of blasters.

Again, what Gallente lacks is a way to be considerably faster for a brief period of time, just enough to get into blaster range, and be penalized on MWD capacitor usage to force a balance between cap drainage from sprinting vs. cap available to actually shoot the blasters. The MWD bonuses mentioned are a way to achieve this. It's just like the RoF bonus most Minmatar boats get or the capacitor bonuses to Amarr - it's the bonus that gives you an edge when you fly the boat the way it's intended to be flown.

Turning Gallente into Minmatar is not the answer to fix blasters. Also, you don't fix the game by nerfing Minmatar.



do you know you can overload your mwd?

What if you got a bonus to MWD overloading on blaster ships? IE 15% bonus to overload effect of MWDs per level, that way blaster boats would be able to close that distance, but would be completely unable to rely on that effect long term, you could even make it 15% bonus to overload effect and heat production of MWDs per level, so they'd overheat faster but overload better.

Thoughts?


That's a good idea too. It keeps people from abusing the increased speed by fitting ACs and kitting forever.

What people doesn't seem to get is that you can't mess with base speed and agility, since that doesn't make blasters useful. It has to be something that gives extreme advantage to quickly get into blaster range, so Gallente boats can survive the dash before the first shot, but can out damage everyone once they get into their optimal range (which blasters will do most of times, specially with the current 5% damage increase).

One big issue that was already mentioned is that you can't rely on MWD since it's so easy to just scram. This is a problem introduced during the speed nerf, which then rendered MWD useless for most ships, and in special for all Gallente blaster boats.

This should be revisited, it shouldn't be so easy to shut a MWD off, or maybe sensor dampeners can make a comeback so Gallente can avoid getting scrammed from too far away (getting scrammed after they are already on blaster range is a non-issue, since they can just web the opponent and level the fight).

The way to fix blasters is to fix Gallente ships. Caldari boats are fine, what sucks are the rails. I don't know why CCP wants to fix "hybrids" in general, when what needs fixing are the actual game mechanics those two races fit in the game.
Sigras
Conglomo
#618 - 2011-11-13 20:45:34 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I support new webifier drones and increased drone bays for Gallente ships. However it is not without issues.

As stated previously all ships can use these and although Gallente would be able to carry more and switch between combat drones and these it may be that some of the stats would need to be looked at.

Perhaps increasing the volume of the dones but keeping the bandwidth would allow other races to carry only a few. For example a Rupy can throw out three medium drones and a Thorax five however the difference between the speed losses is only 3.9% as three is the optimal number due to stacking penalties. If a medium webifier drone was 15m3 and the Thorax drone bay was 75m3 than perhaps that would change.

Light Drone 5%
x1 5%
x2 9.3%
x3 12.2%
x4 13.6%
x5 14.1%

Medium Drone 10 %
x1 10%
x2 18.7%
x3 24.4%
x4 27.2%
x5 28.3%

Heavy Drone 20%
x1 20%
x2 37.4%
x3 48.8%
x4 54.5%
x5 56.6%

Regardless Blaster DPS might need improving as the Gallente ships need combat drones for a third damage type and to bring them on par with Minmatar.

Or perhaps if there was no stacking penalty but they did not stack with normal webs and there was a limit to the reduction then the difference between the 3 and 5 drone max would be larger.

Your stats are a bit wrong, thats not exactly how the effects are applied because each effect is applied to the ship on the already pro-rated stat. for example, the heavy web drone with the stacking nerf penalty:
20.00%
17.38%
11.41%
5.66%
2.12%
but if you put this on a ship that goes say 100 m/s the
first one applies a 20% web and slows it down to 80 m/s,
the second one applies a 17.38% web to the 80 m/s and slows it down to 66.09 m/s
the third one applies an 11.41% web to the 66.09 m/s and slows it down to 58.55 m/s
The fourth one applies a 5.66% web to the 58.55 m/s and slows it down to 55.24 m/s
the fifth one applies a 2.12% web to the 55.24 m/s and slows it down to 54.07 m/s

The total effect applied is only 45.93%

I say all that to say this, I believe that large web drones should be buffed to 30% each (which is really only equivalent to a 62% web because of the stacking penalty) but really they could just be taken out as any ship slow enough to be caught by these drones doesnt really need to be webbed.

Medium drones would be 20% which ends up being a 46% web after stack nerf, and small drones would be 10% which ends up being a 25.5% web after stack nerf.

If they added an extra 25 or 50 drone bay to all of the blaster boats, this would allow them to deploy a flight of these drones allowing it to get in range and then pull them in and put out damage drones.

This seems like a very gallente answer to a very gallente problem
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#619 - 2011-11-13 20:52:44 UTC
Sigras wrote:


I say all that to say this, I believe that large web drones should be buffed to 30% each (which is really only equivalent to a 62% web because of the stacking penalty) but really they could just be taken out as any ship slow enough to be caught by these drones doesnt really need to be webbed.

Medium drones would be 20% which ends up being a 46% web after stack nerf, and small drones would be 10% which ends up being a 25.5% web after stack nerf.

If they added an extra 25 or 50 drone bay to all of the blaster boats, this would allow them to deploy a flight of these drones allowing it to get in range and then pull them in and put out damage drones.

This seems like a very gallente answer to a very gallente problem



Agree with most of that, med drones should be improved to 15-20% web while heavy ones to ~30%, that'll give you a neat 30-40% reduction bonus on med drones wich is quite a punch, and could leave small ones with something like 7,5% wich would be pretty nice webb considdering the small space they take.

Als agree with the increase in the gallente drone bay, but I think I'll rather prefer a small increase and a small decrease on the other factions, than a big increase on gallente and no reduction in the other factions.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#620 - 2011-11-13 21:37:14 UTC
Ah. Thought my values looked better than I expected.

Perhaps T2 versions with your stats would be a good option.

All the e-war drones could do with looking at, perhaps two sets of T2 sensor damp drones one bonused for scan res and the other for range damping with extended control range could help rail ships.