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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2481 - 2013-08-26 14:53:47 UTC
Quote:
Not my standard. Not my idea. Not my universal terms.Read the opening three paragraphs in the original post .. thought I made it abundantly clear as what I was alluding to.


Really? Because in the first three paragraphs, I see Rise saying that they moved AWAY from specialization and role to keep ships steeped in lore and history. I don't see him allude to any "standard". You said that you, you yourself, wanted HACs to meet a standard. I want to know the terms of such a standard. Rise made his position clear, that HACs wouldn't be focusing on a specific role since other projects pulled them away from that. What you have is HACs specializing in, well, being heavy for their size class and assaulting things. Beyond that, I don't know of any other standard he set.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2482 - 2013-08-26 15:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Devon Weeks wrote:
Really? Because in the first three paragraphs, I see Rise saying that they moved AWAY from specialization...

*Sigh* Read it again and think about what is being said and know that interpersonal communication is not made in Hollywood so every little facet is not spoon fed to the masses even if it is pretty damn close to it.
CCP Rise wrote:
...The reality is that when HACs were first introduced they were just cruisers on steroids. The defensive benefits of added resists were the most distinct 'specialization', but they were nowhere near as specialized as something like Recons or Stealth Bombers.

CCP Rise wrote:
...but ultimately decided that it wasn't worth completely throwing out the ships we had. Not only do they have a lot of history in the game, which leads to attachment, but they also have a lot of legitimate use already which we wanted to avoid disrupting if possible.

HACs will deviate from the high-end goal and essentially remain cruisers on steroids but with a focus, albeit never as focused as f.ex. SBs and Recons. Very easy and very simple.
CCP Rise wrote:
...So, we focused on their resilience. HACs are tough but mobile cruisers that can take a lot of punishment. What we want to do is extend that tenacity to some of their other systems, namely electronics and capacitor.

He then goes on to describe the focus they opted for which is hardening everything that can be hardened; Capacitor, sensors and tanks.

And that is where the whole thing breaks down.
- Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.
- Zealot got sensors and a CCC pre-installed so I guess Amarr haters will claim that is a cap boost despite the fact that it is less half that of the ship that got a new mid, has drones and comparatively cap-free guns .. it got nothing else whatsoever, no tank, no speed no nothing. Will excel in one scenario, the same as laser boats always has .. the porcupine/swarm where tracking is irrelevant due to fields of fire and that is it .. no expansion of viability at all.

Deimos got all plus a little extra loving (read: overbuff) and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.
Ishtar got all and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.
Cerberus got all and then some and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.
Eagle is Eagle and is doomed to be **** forever more.
Vaga got all but will struggle as sniper/arty boat, mostly due to arty tracking performance though.
Muninn got all with a shift towards armour but will remain in an extreme niche
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2483 - 2013-08-26 16:48:25 UTC
Quote:
And that is where the whole thing breaks down. - Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.- Zealot got sensors and a CCC pre-installed so I guess Amarr haters will claim that is a cap boost despite the fact that it is less half that of the ship that got a new mid, has drones and comparatively cap-free guns .. it got nothing else whatsoever, no tank, no speed no nothing. Will excel in one scenario, the same as laser boats always has .. the porcupine/swarm where tracking is irrelevant due to fields of fire and that is it .. no expansion of viability at all.Deimos got all plus a little extra loving (read: overbuff) and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.Ishtar got all and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.Cerberus got all and then some and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.Eagle is Eagle and is doomed to be **** forever more.Vaga got all but will struggle as sniper/arty boat, mostly due to arty tracking performance though.Muninn got all with a shift towards armour but will remain in an extreme niche


Sac already had cap and tank and is doing extremely well on Sisi, especially with -sig boosters.

Zealot was already the HAC of choice for a reason and simply didn't need much to begin with. Its strength is its scalability. 

Deimos is good, but nowhere near the beast you and others make it out to be. Ask 0racle sometime about kiting them in an Omen Navy Issue while holding disruptor. 

Ishtar isn't the beast you make it out to be. Once tackled, it isn't hard at all to bring down.

Cerberus we agree on mostly. I do find it a little clumsy, for lack of a better word. It's pretty easy to catch.

Eagle already had battleship tank and should never even be in drone range range to begin with. Not liking its purpose doesn't make it ****.

Vaga is doing very well, though I admit to having been skeptical of its numbers on paper. It does quite well in practice. It is best as an initial tackle in my opinion, but some guys are using it very well as a solo boat.

Munnin we agree on. Very niche, perhaps a bit too much.

The HACs all got the things Rise said in the opening. Overall, I am impressed. The Eagle and Munnin I'm kind of on the fence about just because not a lot of large fleet fights happen on Sisi which is apparently where they are supposed to shine. I think only TQ will tell the whole story there.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2484 - 2013-08-26 17:30:54 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Jeffrey Donovan wrote:
why cant the cerbus have the same bonus as the hookbill?
20% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 10% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity


or atleast

10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage


The Hookbil has three launchers and the Cerberus has six.



You fail to realize what he wants.

The idea is to not pigeonhole Caldari missile boats into pure Kinetic damage.

Everyone always argues that blasters / lasers are fixed damage types, but they deal 2 different types while missiles deal one. It's lame that I'm forced to deal one type of damage or take a 25% damage cut....
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2485 - 2013-08-26 17:42:07 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

- Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.


This dude is complaining about cap on the sec yet it's got by far the best cap of any of the hacs. As an example, it's got 6.7/s base compared to the deimos 6.2/s base. Both of them have far more cap/s compared to the other hacs which still have pretty damn good cap recharge.

Overall, your cap whine does not really hold any weight, just saying...
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2486 - 2013-08-26 17:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ArcticPrism
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

- Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.


This dude is complaining about cap on the sec yet it's got by far the best cap of any of the hacs. As an example, it's got 6.7/s base compared to the deimos 6.2/s base. Both of them have far more cap/s compared to the other hacs which still have pretty damn good cap recharge.

Overall, your cap whine does not really hold any weight, just saying...



Maybe he wants its cap to stand out as much as before.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2487 - 2013-08-26 19:20:57 UTC
ArcticPrism wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

- Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.


This dude is complaining about cap on the sec yet it's got by far the best cap of any of the hacs. As an example, it's got 6.7/s base compared to the deimos 6.2/s base. Both of them have far more cap/s compared to the other hacs which still have pretty damn good cap recharge.

Overall, your cap whine does not really hold any weight, just saying...



Maybe he wants its cap to stand out as much as before.


*Suddenly some weird neuting bonus* - that'd be awesome. Y'know, instead of that range on missiles XD
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2488 - 2013-08-26 19:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ArcticPrism
A neut/nos bonus could be interesting since Rise is so adamant about keeping the utility high on the Sacrilege.
Cade Windstalker
#2489 - 2013-08-26 19:30:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

And that is where the whole thing breaks down.
- Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.
- Zealot got sensors and a CCC pre-installed so I guess Amarr haters will claim that is a cap boost despite the fact that it is less half that of the ship that got a new mid, has drones and comparatively cap-free guns .. it got nothing else whatsoever, no tank, no speed no nothing. Will excel in one scenario, the same as laser boats always has .. the porcupine/swarm where tracking is irrelevant due to fields of fire and that is it .. no expansion of viability at all.

Deimos got all plus a little extra loving (read: overbuff) and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.
Ishtar got all and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.
Cerberus got all and then some and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.
Eagle is Eagle and is doomed to be **** forever more.
Vaga got all but will struggle as sniper/arty boat, mostly due to arty tracking performance though.
Muninn got all with a shift towards armour but will remain in an extreme niche


I fail to see how this "breaks down". Per Rise:

CCP Rise wrote:
...but ultimately decided that it wasn't worth completely throwing out the ships we had. Not only do they have a lot of history in the game, which leads to attachment, but they also have a lot of legitimate use already which we wanted to avoid disrupting if possible.


Hence the lack of change in the already solid HACs. That's why only three out of 8 even had bonuses changed and all of those were really rather odd bonuses or on ships that were in a rather bad spot. Speed bonus on the Vaga and Cap bonus on the Sac in the former case and the Ishtar in the latter case.

Everything else beyond the three main changes to Cap, Sensor Strength, and Lock Range is extra fitting room, slot layout adjustments, more tank, and other fairly minor stat tweaks.

About the only thing I could really get behind is a bit more speed -OR- a smaller sig radius on the Eagle so it can perform a little better with Blasters, but that might end up making its kiting or tanking potential a little too much, I don't know for sure.

Would I like to see a 10% damage bonus on the Eagle? Sure! Would that be hilariously OP? Hells yes.

---

I also get the want for a ship you like in some ways to fit your specific play style but there is no requirement, anywhere, that all of these ships be equally good at brawling and fleet roles. That's just not going to happen. Maybe some of them are more able to swap between the two but there are trade offs to that as well, generally in fittings.

If things go live and certain ships are generally considered to be in a **** spot in winter then they'll probably get a second look, just like the Dominix is getting some tweaks after the previous patch.

Before anyone chimes in with "well of course X is going to be in a **** spot!!!" you're no more precognitive than the devs are, you may have seen something they haven't but the reverse is also true. Your play-style is not everyone's play style. Live with it.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2490 - 2013-08-26 20:07:56 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
And that is where the whole thing breaks down. - Sacrilege got the sensors but no tank and no capacitor (+0.2 is a kick in the groin) but got a bonus that will not help it in the vast majority of situations it will find itself in. It will be sub-par in just about any role .. cost of giving its main redeeming (super cap, comparatively) feature to almost everyone without getting anything in return.- Zealot got sensors and a CCC pre-installed so I guess Amarr haters will claim that is a cap boost despite the fact that it is less half that of the ship that got a new mid, has drones and comparatively cap-free guns .. it got nothing else whatsoever, no tank, no speed no nothing. Will excel in one scenario, the same as laser boats always has .. the porcupine/swarm where tracking is irrelevant due to fields of fire and that is it .. no expansion of viability at all.Deimos got all plus a little extra loving (read: overbuff) and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.Ishtar got all and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.Cerberus got all and then some and will do pretty much all roles with equal gusto.Eagle is Eagle and is doomed to be **** forever more.Vaga got all but will struggle as sniper/arty boat, mostly due to arty tracking performance though.Muninn got all with a shift towards armour but will remain in an extreme niche


Sac already had cap and tank and is doing extremely well on Sisi, especially with -sig boosters.

Zealot was already the HAC of choice for a reason and simply didn't need much to begin with. Its strength is its scalability. 

Deimos is good, but nowhere near the beast you and others make it out to be. Ask 0racle sometime about kiting them in an Omen Navy Issue while holding disruptor. 

Ishtar isn't the beast you make it out to be. Once tackled, it isn't hard at all to bring down.

Cerberus we agree on mostly. I do find it a little clumsy, for lack of a better word. It's pretty easy to catch.

Eagle already had battleship tank and should never even be in drone range range to begin with. Not liking its purpose doesn't make it ****.

Vaga is doing very well, though I admit to having been skeptical of its numbers on paper. It does quite well in practice. It is best as an initial tackle in my opinion, but some guys are using it very well as a solo boat.

Munnin we agree on. Very niche, perhaps a bit too much.

The HACs all got the things Rise said in the opening. Overall, I am impressed. The Eagle and Munnin I'm kind of on the fence about just because not a lot of large fleet fights happen on Sisi which is apparently where they are supposed to shine. I think only TQ will tell the whole story there.



The Deimos is the beast we've made it out to be. You can't kill it with a kiting ship.
Infinite Force
#2491 - 2013-08-26 20:16:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
ISHTAR

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400 (+275) / 265s (-70s) / 5.28/s (+1.9)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+4) / .52 / 11100000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+20km) / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric (+7)
Signature radius: 145


Any particular reasoning behind giving the Ishtar 14 slots? All the other HACs have 15...

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2492 - 2013-08-26 22:09:18 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:


Any particular reasoning behind giving the Ishtar 14 slots? All the other HACs have 15...


I'm going to guess it has something to with how almost every single dedicated drone ship (ones with drone bonuses and very large drone bays) have -1 slot compared to "Comparable" ships.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2493 - 2013-08-26 22:22:25 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:


Any particular reasoning behind giving the Ishtar 14 slots? All the other HACs have 15...


I'm going to guess it has something to with how almost every single dedicated drone ship (ones with drone bonuses and very large drone bays) have -1 slot compared to "Comparable" ships.


Illogical and indefensible I know...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Cade Windstalker
#2494 - 2013-08-27 00:06:40 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:


Any particular reasoning behind giving the Ishtar 14 slots? All the other HACs have 15...


I'm going to guess it has something to with how almost every single dedicated drone ship (ones with drone bonuses and very large drone bays) have -1 slot compared to "Comparable" ships.


Illogical and indefensible I know...


And yet it seems to be coming out at a fairly balanced point... They are essentially trading that slot for the massive drone bay.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2495 - 2013-08-27 01:41:50 UTC
Quote:
The Deimos is the beast we've made it out to be. You can't kill it with a kiting ship.


You most certainly can, and it's being done every morning on the test server. Go try it.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2496 - 2013-08-27 01:51:06 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
The Deimos is the beast we've made it out to be. You can't kill it with a kiting ship.


You most certainly can, and it's being done every morning on the test server. Go try it.



The Test server, the metric by which all ships should be judged on their quality Roll

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Cade Windstalker
#2497 - 2013-08-27 01:59:43 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
The Deimos is the beast we've made it out to be. You can't kill it with a kiting ship.


You most certainly can, and it's being done every morning on the test server. Go try it.



The Test server, the metric by which all ships should be judged on their quality Roll


I dunno, I think I'd put more stock in live results and practical testing than spit-balling numbers on a forum.

If I had 1 million ISK for every time someone on these forums declared something horribly OP (or agreed with someone's declaration of horrible OP-ness) and then this turned out to be so much space-dust when the changes hit TQ I think I would be able to buy enough Titans to spell out "I Told You So!" in space.
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2498 - 2013-08-27 02:17:26 UTC
How about change -50% MWD sig role bonus for +100% Afterburner speed bonus?
Awesome sig, awesome cap (not hinted by MWD), compensated by somewhat lower speed (still slower than MWD).
At least that would gave them role as slower but tankier cruisers, exactly what HACs supposed to be....
And yes you could still fit MWD on vaga and it would perform the same....
Battlingbean
Wings of the Dark Portal
#2499 - 2013-08-27 03:02:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:




If I had 1 million ISK for every time someone on these forums declared something horribly OP (or agreed with someone's declaration of horrible OP-ness) and then this turned out to be so much space-dust when the changes hit TQ I think I would be able to buy enough Titans to spell out "I Told You So!" in space.


Like when you said the Eagle would be OP with a 10% damage bonus?
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2500 - 2013-08-27 03:28:42 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
The Deimos is the beast we've made it out to be. You can't kill it with a kiting ship.


You most certainly can, and it's being done every morning on the test server. Go try it.



The Test server, the metric by which all ships should be judged on their quality Roll


The forums, the metric by which all ships should be judged on their quality. Roll