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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

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Jigyounushi
raging waffles
#721 - 2013-07-25 19:19:14 UTC
skill system is just fine ....WE ALL started out with little skills some of us started with way less than what is avail now...Eve is not totally about skill points its about team work and learning...Stop trying to be what took some of us years to get to in a couple of months. Join a good corp/alliance and learn how eve really works..
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#722 - 2013-07-25 21:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Soukesen Valdrei wrote:
I don't entirely understand the complaint of the OP. As a brand new player myself, the only negative to me lies in the sheer overwhelming number of options and skills available. It's practically dizzying. After a little research, though, things become clearer and I was able to start on the path(s) I wanted to try.

As far as I can tell, it will only take me a couple of months to get into everything I want to get into to be at least somewhat effective at what I'm currently doing. I have a couple of long term goals that will take a long time to get into, but the whole "2 years just to do anything fun" doesn't ring true for me at all, and I'm one of those new players the OP was supposedly speaking for.

But this thread is over 30 pages long. I don't have time to read all of it. If the topic has shifted and made this post entirely useless to the thread, forgive me.


Yes that is exactly my sentiment.
I suggested a basic skill-set earlier in this thread.
So get one empires turret specific skill at 5-4 as well as frigate skill.
Get people over indecisiveness by giving them a starting point to choose "before!!" entering the game.
SO as to prevent people from getting all gunnery skills at lvl 3 and missiles, drones, pouring gasoline over their heads lighting a match and jumping out of a birthdaycake jetissoned from a rifter being flown by a tiny jedi in a desert(jedi??sith??amagawd so many things to choose from).
That said some things might be worth looking into, like what does cybernetics really add aside from time spent training?
Peace out MADAF$%BERS.

P.S. IT was a rifter don't even pull that, "it was a slicer crap"
Tarrick Merdev
Mernaya Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#723 - 2013-07-26 13:11:28 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).


There is no "SP wall".


Since you missed it.
This is the wall that I speak of.
My point is this...

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.

...More ridiculous stuff...


I didn't miss it. What I'm asserting is that it's poppycock, and that, with respect to Eve and the many nuances of its interconnected systems, you are incompetent to the point that you lack even the vaguest notion of the depths of that incompetence.

...More awesome stuff...

Would 'like' again.
Sulliva Slake
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#724 - 2013-07-26 17:28:32 UTC
Wow I read to page 6... Then I realized there was another 31 pages.. SCREW THAT..


But from the jist of what I read, I can clearly see that you have not played the game enough to realize SP doesn't really matter so much..

I thought it ment more then it did as well, (just check my prevous forum posts LOL) but within the last month or 2 since ive joined up with Eve-Uni, I have learned its more about personal skills, and not SP.

Its about picking the right fights and running from the others.

And also, this being an MMO, you have to find the right group of players to be with. Some like big fleets some like smaller gangs, and some more even just like solo.

And none of those you need 1-2 years worth SP to get involved with.


Ive been playing for 4 1/2 months now, and can fly all caldari missle boats up to the raven, but once I got into PvP I have downsized to mostly cruisers/frigates, which don't need 2 years of SP "just to fly"

I can also fill other roles as well, like:

Exploration (requires about a week of skills to start)
E-war (less then a week once you have cruiser skills)
Tackling & webbing frigate (a day of training?)
Logistics (about a month worth SP)

So. You and your friends just don't know how to play the game. You don't need all your skills at 5 "just to play the game"

If you really want a fast paced game that you can use all the big guns right away I would not suggest this game to you. This is a game of patience. But If you have that patience the rewards are worth it.
Sekida Katsuki
Perkone
Caldari State
#725 - 2013-07-26 22:15:12 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,

So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.
Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.
Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.
The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.
From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.
If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

Regards: Hefty


I don't agree with your points at all. You seem to suggest, because you and your friends don't like how Eve works - therefore Eve is on the downturn.

Yet... look at the MMO's that made things easy or simplified to copy WoW... while WoW was successful at grabbing subs, every other game that simplified went F2P within 2 years.

Consider that Eve is 10 years old and still taking subs.

I also take contention that it takes 1.5 years to be effective. Define effective. I've played with 4 accounts off and on since 2008. This is my latest account. While I might have agreed in 2008 that the game was just to confusing for a new comer, today the game is much easier to accomplish goals.... Example:
1. buddy system. this time i started a new account off a buddy invite, and I got paid 250Million isk + got a ship from the guy. this was a great start
2. the carrier tutorials... each one got me a ship.

I guess the problem I have is your concept of effective. There's no bar in Eve by which to say "now i'm a success!" so how do you come to the conclusion that effectiveness is not being met? What are YOUR goals... and consider YOUR goals are not necessarily anyone else's...

I've heard some cool stories from new players, that had an "effective" experience playing an MMO... they didn't drive capital ships, but they did have fun.

The "make the game easier" can be valid, but I think in your argument's case it isn't. I also don't like your ego, in thinking CCP needs your help to survive. pretty lame.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#726 - 2013-07-27 03:44:51 UTC
Page 37, OP nearly 5 months absent from thread, over 4 months absent from forums in general, still being directly replied to.

This is the thread that never ends.
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#727 - 2013-07-27 03:59:20 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Page 37, OP nearly 5 months absent from thread, over 4 months absent from forums in general, still being directly replied to.

This is the thread that never ends.


no let it continue, now and then there's new player give some thought about it and it will encourage everyone ^^
Clarice Creed
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#728 - 2013-07-31 19:04:14 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Am I speaking the wrong language?
This is a serious discussion sidetracked by trolls.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Three simple questions.
Zero answers... Will Hefty prevail in finding the answers on the broken internet!?
Find out on the next post. /commence epic outro!


Your biased questions and your decision to ignore everyone poking holes in your two years minimum argument really stifle any discussion.

1. It's not considered a huge problem except by people that want it all now or think the game starts at the level cap.
2. You should probably go to the fan faire and talk to the devs about it.
3. By playing the game, see this thread for a player less then a year old enjoying various facets of EVE.

Bonus answer to your dilemma:

Your friends didnt like EVE and games are more fun with friends. Convince them back in, find more friends in EVE or go play what they play.
Zach Igunen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#729 - 2013-08-06 14:24:05 UTC
You can have fun and be useful from the start. The training academy i'm in does pvp all the time. In fact with a fleet comprised almost completely of <3m SP players we just took out two CFC POCOs. Even though in reality the POCO's aren't that important it was still fun as hell and mildly useful. All with only about 1-2 weeks of skill training required to fly all the basic ships for our fleets.
Reginald Plaude
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#730 - 2013-08-06 21:37:37 UTC
Fellow newbro here, and I disagree very strongly.

I'm extremely useful in both FW, Mining Ops and Fleet after spending 3 weeks on eve. The secret is to pick a role that is actually useful and obtainable *gasp*

If you try to compete with a Battle Cruiser on DPS with either a Frigate or Destroyer you're going to lose; That's just common sense. What you must do instead is play to the strengths of the ships within your immediate reach. The obvious example is tackling where a frigates high mobility shines but there are several awesome E-War and Logisitics builds for frigates out there that can be very effective in PvP.

I have chosen to specialize my Maulus in Sensor Dampner and ECMs - which means if I tag an opponent, they cannot lock for several seconds (often multiple cycles). As a frigate I can cause a cruiser to do 0 dps for several cycles. I am a completely relevant force on the battlefield no matter how you slice it.

Until you can fly a heavy DPS ship your role is not DPS, if you're one of those players that "has to be the star" or "can't support" then yeah you're going to be butthurt.

There are FW objectives that are only available to tier 1 frigates!!! get a collection of newbros and fight opponents that are required to be on your tech level!!!! What I see a lot of complaining about is people thinking they have to rush cruisers or battleships to be relevant, which is just not true. Stop going after the role that takes several months to do well and find the role that you can do RIGHT NOW!. Once you got that down you can start playing the long game.

~Regards
Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#731 - 2013-08-07 22:44:49 UTC
As an 8 day old player, I honestly think you were gravely mislead by your imagination.

The funny thing is that I actually did the opposite of you. I warned all of my friends to not play, because I knew they would not last more than 1 day.

I am going to go ahead and say that this is probably not a game for you, just yet. You definitely burned yourself out by grinding and farming with high expectations of imminent gratification. I recommend having a more realistic approach to the game. It's too easy to be enchanted by all the stories you hear about the wild and mischievous things people have done. Take your time and find your own reasons to enjoy EVE.

The learning cliff is probably the only reason this game has stood the test of time. It makes sure that the community is strong and only welcomes those people who are really ready to become part of the EVE universe.

If you leave this game, I would say it's good on you. You acknowledged your true feelings and are about to leave us behind to find your own new world to immerse yourself into.

If you stay, I hope to see you in game...before you see me so that I can lock onto you and remind you of why you need to upgrade your clones. = D

Good luck.
XxCamping MinerxX
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#732 - 2013-08-07 23:39:02 UTC
All the new players that are saying that the SP system is bad, clearly don't know what the game is...

The game is not meant for the people who lacks patience, as you're already aware, the SP system takes years. Even the character the was first ever created over 10 years ago still haven't got all the skills to 5. Comparing yourself to older players is stupid. People say that frigate PVP is the best sort for 'fun', and to max out your skills in everything for frigates, you're looking at max of about 4 months, but you'll be able to effectively fly a frigate in what? 1 month at max.

Why am I using frigates as an example?

In EVE, there is always a ship that counters another ship. In this case, frigates are very effective at 'tackling' other, bigger ships such as battleships and capitals.
Also, specialising in frigates allows the skillpath of interdictors, which can be fitted with a 'warp bubble' which, when ships are inside the bubble, can not warp out. Low level SP pilots can get into these and cause havoc... Of course if you have friends for the damage.

Which comes to my next point, EVE is a very difficult game to play solo, make NEW friends, learn with other new players, or join a 'noob-friendly' corporation with veterans in and they'll help you along the way.

At the end of the day, if you know the right contacts, and you're able to fly a interdictor, you're one VERY wanted pilot already.
Having millions and millions of SP is not the idea of the game, just allows you to do MORE things. As people have already said, doing 1 activity at a time takes the most of about 6 months of training to max. Apart from the odd things like titan skilling, which takes well over a year.
Catastrophe Bloom
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2013-08-08 16:27:36 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Page 37, OP nearly 5 months absent from thread, over 4 months absent from forums in general, still being directly replied to.

This is the thread that never ends.


I'm not enthused enough to read through the entire 37 pages, but from what I did see....did the OP ever clarify what he wanted to DO so urgently that would take him two years to skill for?
Biff Ekpyrion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#734 - 2013-08-09 07:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Biff Ekpyrion
Seraphim Kensai wrote:


If you want everything just handed do you in game, why not in life too? Isn't that a bit much for a sense of self-entitlement?


No that here is exactly what we're arguing against.

That's how the system works now: just sit and wait, and the skills will come. The only effort you really have to make is to pay money and wait.

EVE is just handing you the skills now. That's how it currently is. And that's a bit boring.

Just felt I had to clarify that. :)
Caesarion Prime
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#735 - 2013-08-09 12:36:45 UTC
As a new player myself i'd love to gain some extra SP for running missions or something so people who actually play the game would have an advantage over those that don't. The way it is now the game is focused heavily on casual players. Maybe it has something to do with server costs though.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#736 - 2013-08-09 13:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
Caesarion Prime wrote:
As a new player myself i'd love to gain some extra SP for running missions or something so people who actually play the game would have an advantage over those that don't.

People who actually play the game have a bigger advantage over those who don't: experience. And as has already been stated numerous times, SP for activity used to be a thing and was removed because it was vastly exploited.

Caesarion Prime wrote:
The way it is now the game is focused heavily on casual players. Maybe it has something to do with server costs though.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. There are thankfully a few things where casual players are given a fair shake, but the bar for most of the major content is set by the hardcore folks, like any other game.
Vatos Amigo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#737 - 2013-08-09 20:44:59 UTC
Careful you don't enter my solar system I'll have your ship popped and poddedTwisted

Because I have more SP then you which makes me more superior then.
Know why because I've dedicated myself to eve and learned the mechanism of this game.

the first time I could fly a harbinger with low skill in beams which I didn't know pulse was the way to go.
I became a pirate with the corp I joined. To this day I am a solo pirate.
Yes I have more then one alt because of it.

Now I'm a superior solo pirate that will kill you without any remorse
And sale the loot you dropped.

This is my roll I chose when I started eve with low SP but
Look at me now I've made billions by being an elite pirate.

LOVE THIS GAME!!!!
10/10

PIRATE FOR LIFEPirate
Orlacc
#738 - 2013-08-10 05:42:31 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
[quote=Caesarion Prime] And as has already been stated numerous times, SP for activity used to be a thing and was removed because it was vastly exploited.



When was this????

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#739 - 2013-08-10 11:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Llyona
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,
So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

This game is simply way too punishing for new players.


You're right about EVE being great! I used to play WoW when I ran into an ad for this cool looking space game 6 year ago. Since then I've never looked back.
Also, I disagree with your last statement, as I believe adverisity weeds out the weak.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.

Alright man, let me stop you there. You've got the WoWhead mentality there man and I had it when I first joined. A Titan is not a Tier 3/High Warlord geared level 60. In EVE, bigger is not always better. In fact, most of the time bigger is actually worse.

Let me give you an example. Imagine you're in your High Warlord set on your 60 when you see a flagged level 10. You run up to him, only to miss and keep missing. Well that's annoying, right? Now all of the sudden you can no longer jump/warp because he has a spell that keeps you from being able to flee. Now all of the sudden a level 1 shows up and casts a spell that opens a massive portal bringing in all his level 30 buddies that commence casting spells and hitting you, all the while you can't even touch a single one of them.

This happens in EVE all the time. Caps and Supercaps are extremely vulnerable to smaller ships without a support fleet.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics.

So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

Let me guess, you were actually training skills that allowed you to improve your PvP/PvE abilities, right?

Guess what my first 2 months were spent doing? Go ahead, I bet you'll never guess without looking it up first.

My first two months were spent learning how to learn. That's right man! 6 years ago they had "learning skills" which were skills that allowed you to learn more quickly. You want to talk about an SP wall for new players? Pardon me if I'm not all that symphathetic.

Also, I hate to say it man, but your friends had the WoWhead too and you only reinforced it with your own ignorance. Also, boo freakin hoo. Your friends tried a game and they didn't like it.

I've had about 7 people (2 brothers and 5 friends) try EVE and all of them quit. The only person that has stuck it out is my wife and she started her account with me. EVE isn't for everyone and I like that fact.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.

Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.

Did you know that CCP is a business that has to pay for bandwidth, developers, server hardware, etc? Of course you did! So claiming a business is milking cash out of people goes without saying. They exist to take our money in exchange for a product we want (EVE Online).

Lot's of people have specialized alts. This isn't a bad idea as it allows you more flexibility in character placement for more efficient logisitics and whatever else you want.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.

The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.

Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?


CCP isn't Blizzard. They aren't going to simplify this game so 12 year olds can flood it with their retardation and drive away their core veterans.

A well skilled fast tackle takes a month to train. Fast tackles are extremely useful.

Furthermore, WoW is a far more simplistic game that has a single focus: Get more gear. EVE Online is a sandbox where you enjoy the journey, instead of racing to a destination.

As for your questions:
1) CCP isn't going broke. EVE has a solid playerbase. CCP doesn't want to make EVE easy. Most of the playerbase isn't interested in grinding for gear. With that, I'd say the only problem is your perception that ships=gear and bigger-ships=epic gear.

2) It's not going to happen. CCP has an old saying that goes along these lines "Harden The **** Up".

3) What would you consider greatness? You see, there is no specific "greatness" in EVE, other than the fact that you get to forge your own destiny in a sandbox with hundreds of thousands of players. The best thing we can do is get WoWheads to realize there is no endgame in EVE. Every other MMO focuses so much on endgame, that oftentimes new players have no idea how to handle a game that doesn't have tracks and hand rails.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#740 - 2013-08-10 14:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Llyona wrote:


As for your questions:
1) CCP isn't going broke. EVE has a solid playerbase. CCP doesn't want to make EVE easy. Most of the playerbase isn't interested in grinding for gear. With that, I'd say the only problem is your perception that ships=gear and bigger-ships=epic gear.

2) It's not going to happen. CCP has an old saying that goes along these lines "Harden The **** Up".

3) What would you consider greatness? You see, there is no specific "greatness" in EVE, other than the fact that you get to forge your own destiny in a sandbox with hundreds of thousands of players. The best thing we can do is get WoWheads to realize there is no endgame in EVE. Every other MMO focuses so much on endgame, that oftentimes new players have no idea how to handle a game that doesn't have tracks and hand rails.



Well, as a player with 210 million skill points right now, i'm the one challenging CCP for more content aimed at old players, which is something they haven't been doing in the last few years, and i have all races of combat ships completely maxed out and that includes all 4 dreads, 4 carriers and super carriers and all 4 titans and this is a ship based game above all else as there's a lot more skills relating to ships than with any other thing you can do in the game, be it research, trading, corp management, mining( **** that), etc....



Maybe CCP expects old farts like us to just go away as we've played the game extensively and did our part, so we can just **** off at this point, or they don't have the money and resources to create said content, or they don't want the flak from everyone one else should they release said content, and the capabilities between new and old players further increase.......Use your own advice and Harden the **** up CCP and i aam getting tired of seeing you guys not doing anything for those that have been with the game from the start when it was a mess and way harder and more umbalanced than it is today, not to mention the server crashing 2~3 times every day.


Here's my eve sheet to prove it


http://eveboard.com/pilot/digitalwanderer


Yeah, 6th highest in SP total on database with almost 74 000 players, and as you can see in ship command, there's not much left to train and i want T2 capital guns and missiles, and more tech 3 ships( battlecruisers, battleships) and i am trying to avoid asking for T2 capital ships, even though i'm fully ready to train for them for all 4 races.....