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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#701 - 2013-07-11 14:24:34 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Peter_Pacis

This pilot (the one you bought) may be two years old but he has only one year of training, i bought myself a much better pilot for a lot less isk. Also wanting to fly both Tengu and a faction BS with only 20mil SP (Mach requires cross training btw) is really ********.


**** like this makes my day Big smile

bless ya
Alpheias
The Khaleph
#702 - 2013-07-12 08:01:13 UTC
Here is a character that I made last year during a power of two, with the intent to fly assault frigates. I naturally branched off for destroyers and battlecruisers when the changes were announced.

The character is close to a year old now but I think the result speak for itself.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#703 - 2013-07-12 08:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Alpheias wrote:
Here is a character that I made last year during a power of two, with the intent to fly assault frigates. I naturally branched off for destroyers and battlecruisers when the changes were announced.

The character is close to a year old now but I think the result speak for itself.


That character is a very good example WHY the SP system in its current implementation is broken.

I'm pretty certain that you did not fly that character for the whole year and skilled whatever was necessary, else you could never have those SP/h.

Further evidenced by the fact that you skilled medium energy and hybrid to V and didn't touch T2 specs.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#704 - 2013-07-12 09:48:23 UTC
I'm too lazy to read through this crapnaught, so are we for or against SP is broken at this point?
Alpheias
The Khaleph
#705 - 2013-07-12 11:15:04 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Here is a character that I made last year during a power of two, with the intent to fly assault frigates. I naturally branched off for destroyers and battlecruisers when the changes were announced.

The character is close to a year old now but I think the result speak for itself.


That character is a very good example WHY the SP system in its current implementation is broken.

I'm pretty certain that you did not fly that character for the whole year and skilled whatever was necessary, else you could never have those SP/h.

Further evidenced by the fact that you skilled medium energy and hybrid to V and didn't touch T2 specs.


Making assumptions much? I bought a bunch of skills and within a week, I was in a rifter, doing small gang pewpew. :)

I wanted to make a character that was really focused on assault frigates because when CCP announced that they were changing the assault frigates into potent little combat ships, I simply couldn't resist the urge so all I did was to wait for another power of two offer to show.

Anything else that I have trained are, what I think are, just logical steps. CCP announces the changes to destroyers and battlecruiser because I just love free SP. Don't you?

As for the lack of medium specializations, I believe it is wiser if I trained them first to V. I then inject the specialization skills, jump to large and train those to IV before finishing off the medium specialization skills.

By the same logic I went with leaving the gunnery and missile support skills at IV.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#706 - 2013-07-12 11:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Alpheias wrote:

Making assumptions much? I bought a bunch of skills and within a week, I was in a rifter, doing small gang pewpew. :)


Since i can't know for certain, all i have left is to assume :).

I think where i erred was in forgetting that eveboard oversimplifies SP/h and the free SP messed that up badly. Sorry.

Quote:

As for the lack of medium specializations, I believe it is wiser if I trained them first to V. I then inject the specialization skills, jump to large and train those to IV before finishing off the medium specialization skills.


Doesn't make too much sense, but this isn't the place to discuss that. :)
Alpheias
The Khaleph
#707 - 2013-07-12 12:02:22 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


Doesn't make too much sense, but this isn't the place to discuss that. :)


I admit, the logic might be a bit flawed because I am pretty much ignoring the DPS boost by not training them so I'll expand on my reasoning; I fly frigates ten times out of times and therefore training medium specializations is a bit daft at this point in time.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#708 - 2013-07-12 16:45:58 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


Doesn't make too much sense, but this isn't the place to discuss that. :)


I admit, the logic might be a bit flawed because I am pretty much ignoring the DPS boost by not training them so I'll expand on my reasoning; I fly frigates ten times out of times and therefore training medium specializations is a bit daft at this point in time.


True, but if the short term goal was large weapons, med V was a lot of overkill too, before the need arises as a stepstone via med spec towards large spec. There's really only one convincing reason to skill med V, which is med spec.

Again, not the place, though :)
Toros Revoke
#709 - 2013-07-14 16:06:59 UTC
Pffft, some of you new players don't know you're born! When I started, the tutorial went along the lines of "here is space, off you go", and we didn't have shoes!
Anyway...
Lack of sp isn't a problem if you don't make it one, you have to specialise early and don't try to do everything, which is a trap a lot of people fall into.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#710 - 2013-07-14 16:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Toros Revoke wrote:

Lack of sp isn't a problem if you don't make it one, you have to specialise early and don't try to do everything, which is a trap a lot of people fall into.


You have to admit, it's not really specializing, it is limiting yourself to only doing one thing to the exclusion of everything else.

Even IF you decided to skill perfectly into your 'specialty', you can be sure that there's a legion of players out there who also skilled your 'specialty' to the same level, simply as a subset of their skills.

The reward in TRUE specialization lies in the knowledge that concentration on one thing results in excellence over generalists and specialists in other domains.Which is far from true in EVE, where the veteran generalist's only 'accomplishment' is having stumbled over EVE a few years prior.
Toros Revoke
#711 - 2013-07-14 23:09:52 UTC
Feel free to impose your own limits, but I'm not really seeing your point. Once you've gotten good at one easily achievable thing, either continue to get better at it by adding complementary skills to your existing portifolio, or move onto something else. I would generally encourage new players to try to get into assault frigates, as it's not too long winded and it's better and cheaper to be a good af pilot than a mediocre [Insert bigger spendier ship here] pilot.
Seraphim Kensai
Shadow Knight's
#712 - 2013-07-15 00:56:50 UTC
I really don't see the way it is as a problem, everyone starts somewhere and they grow from it.

It emulates real life to an extent, you build experience at absolutely everything you do in life and you generally get better at it or can do more complex things later. Sure there's a plateau where after that things either stall out or start going downhill, but that's imposed upon us do to our mortality (failing bodies and minds). An example would be a newborn baby, they start off with three skills: eat, sleep and ****, and they only have them trained to lvl 1. As they live each day they grow and get better at stuff and inject more skills ie. teething, and starting to eat solid foods, sleeping through the night, and learning to wipe their own asses. New skills come along the way like putting the cube shaped block in the square opening, speech, etc.

Eventually they cook for themselves, are doing their own laundry, driving cars, getting jobs, etc.


If you want everything just handed do you in game, why not in life too? Isn't that a bit much for a sense of self-entitlement?

Personally, its ok to work for what you get in life and game, and in-game skills aren't the be all end all of the game.
I remember when I was new, I was in awe of a guy teaching me some stuff because he had ships worth a billion or so isk, and here I was with maybe 4 million isk, told mining was the best way at a low sp levels to make isk. Then I warp jammed a charon and was paid 800 mil because I was flying point in my condor for an imaginary fleet of cloaked stealth bombers and t3's. Not bad for my 4th day playing Eve.

So maybe if you and they are having problems with having low sp, try a different approach. Your approach of buying a new character might work but is it enough? What happens when you want to fly a ship that your new account can't handle, do you buy a new character, or actually train for it?
Tibo Paralian
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#713 - 2013-07-15 01:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tibo Paralian
Seraphim Kensai wrote:
I really don't see the way it is as a problem, everyone starts somewhere and they grow from it.

It emulates real life to an extent, you build experience at absolutely everything you do in life and you generally get better at it or can do more complex things later.


So, what you're saying is that, EVE is real?
Seraphim Kensai
Shadow Knight's
#714 - 2013-07-15 01:54:31 UTC
Tibo Paralian wrote:


So, what you're saying is that, EVE is real?


It was an example to show correlation between the similarities of the game itself and life drawing to an old saying I remember:
"Wish in one hand, and defecate in the other; and see which one feels up first." which relates to having to work for what you want as opposed to sitting there hoping someone else will do the work for you.
Kryttos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#715 - 2013-07-15 09:33:20 UTC
I prefer the SP system the way it is. This isn't WoW. Or some cheap F2P ( P2Win ).

Its the experience of playing, not stroking your E-peen. I bet same said person would complain how easy they got blown up if they got into things too fast.
Soukesen Valdrei
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#716 - 2013-07-15 15:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Soukesen Valdrei
I don't entirely understand the complaint of the OP. As a brand new player myself, the only negative to me lies in the sheer overwhelming number of options and skills available. It's practically dizzying. After a little research, though, things become clearer and I was able to start on the path(s) I wanted to try.

As far as I can tell, it will only take me a couple of months to get into everything I want to get into to be at least somewhat effective at what I'm currently doing. I have a couple of long term goals that will take a long time to get into, but the whole "2 years just to do anything fun" doesn't ring true for me at all, and I'm one of those new players the OP was supposedly speaking for.

But this thread is over 30 pages long. I don't have time to read all of it. If the topic has shifted and made this post entirely useless to the thread, forgive me.

Yo.

Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#717 - 2013-07-16 10:38:01 UTC
Soukesen Valdrei wrote:
I don't entirely understand the complaint of the OP. As a brand new player myself, the only negative to me lies in the sheer overwhelming number of options and skills available. It's practically dizzying. After a little research, though, things become clearer and I was able to start on the path(s) I wanted to try.

As far as I can tell, it will only take me a couple of months to get into everything I want to get into to be at least somewhat effective at what I'm currently doing. I have a couple of long term goals that will take a long time to get into, but the whole "2 years just to do anything fun" doesn't ring true for me at all, and I'm one of those new players the OP was supposedly speaking for.

But this thread is over 30 pages long. I don't have time to read all of it. If the topic has shifted and made this post entirely useless to the thread, forgive me.


it's not useless, always inspirative and fun to see how new player manage to have fun. it's all back to how you at something, rome isn't build in 1 night
DrElJefeMD
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#718 - 2013-07-16 11:46:10 UTC
One of the things that worried me when I started playing eve was I saw a thread just like this one. The OP indicated that the skillpoint system was off putting to new players, etc etc etc.

That was the day after Christmas 2005. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Luke Mangeiri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#719 - 2013-07-16 21:55:32 UTC
One of the things that strikes me about a lot of MMO players, is the need to be "Maxed Out" before being able to do anything worthwhile in a game. As it relates to most AAA theme park style MMO's, people have been programmed to get to max elvel as quickly as possible and then to start grinding gear so they have the best of everything in the game.

Now, I have not played EVE long, nor am I a typical MMO style enthusiast, but I think there is quite a dichotomy between the way many people approach modern AAA theme-park style MMO's and the way one should approach EVE.

If you think you are going to be able to race to max everything in a short amount of time, you are going to have a miserable time. Instead, while it is important to progress your skills, the fun of EVE is not in attaining max everything, but something more fundamental that MMO style games seem to have lost recently: intrinsic enjoyment of a game.

You don't need the biggest and best things in EVE to have fun, at least that isn't the goal. The goal is to solve problems with what you have. Overcome challenges. Be part of a story or a team.

I agree that the barrier for entry into EVE looks impossibly high, and that is probably a very big deterrent to new players, but I the flip side of the coin is that you have a very extensive, deep and interesting game.

I think mindset is a big part of people taking the time to enjoy this game, and if your mindset is based on the way people currently play theme park style AAA MMO's currently, then you are going to have a hard time with EVE. That isn't necessarily te fault of the game, nor does it make the game inherently difficult to play and have fun in, even early on.
Soukesen Valdrei
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#720 - 2013-07-17 15:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Soukesen Valdrei
^^ Exactly. For me, the biggest draw of this game WAS the fact that you didn't get maxed out within a week. That most of the endgame didn't lay in an endless grind for loot and gear that would only become obsolete with the next expansion. I've only tried a couple of themepark MMOs (one of which was WoW, naturally), and they just got so boring very quickly for me. This wasn't even the primary reason for it, but it certainly didn't help.

Eve Online is about the journey, not the destination. Enjoy the present - you're not going to skill any faster if you're just focused on things you can't do for months or years, depending on what all you're going after. And enjoy the fact that, even years on, you're still going to be able to try out new things.

Yo.