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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Azlin kenjui
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#681 - 2013-06-25 21:01:17 UTC
I feel for you but then again I don't. You yourself said you like more mature MMO games. Well Eve is it and a mature player would realize that it takes time and patience to really develop a character you will enjoy. The big issue with most mmo titles is they hold your hand all the way through the game. Eve doesn't it says here is a platform to play on go crazy do what ever you want, I'm brand new to eve and love every aspect of it. I do mining in my barge and when I get bored I take my destroyer out on missions. I also found a good corp that supports newer players like myself they organize group mining ops in high and low sec space. They also help with info and training for PvP encounters. Sp helps but it's still you as a player the way you outfit your ship to your strategy in combat.

As for milking money, uhm plex my friend. They put a feature in that allows you play for free really so you pay a sub fee for a few months then you buy plex at 500mill isk.

Take your friends and run missions as a fighter group or mine together in low sec with drones guarding you. Eve is what you yourself make it and if jumping to end game content is what you want play a different game.
Marianne Pollard
Doomheim
#682 - 2013-06-26 13:49:32 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.



Stopped reading there.

Absolute garbage. I make billions per month on one character that has 5m sp.

I know you're new, but I can't let this kind of bull go unchallenged.

Mocking the afflicted since 2013.

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#683 - 2013-06-26 14:28:38 UTC
Marianne Pollard wrote:
I know you're new, but I can't let this kind of bull go unchallenged.

Unchallenged? You're responding to post 1 of a 35-page (and counting) thread.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#684 - 2013-06-26 16:07:22 UTC
can we please let this terrible thread rest in peace?

I should buy an Ishtar.

Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#685 - 2013-06-26 17:37:40 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Really?

Lets analyze what you just said.
  • Friends mean everything.
    All of mine quit.

    Make new ones in the game.
    Hefty TheFirst wrote:

  • Skill points mean nothing.
    The reason why my friends quit.

    Teach them about point #1.
    Hefty TheFirst wrote:

  • Knowledge means everything.
  • I have knowledge of things I want to do.
    How far away am I to do them? 1-2 years away.
    Wait that long? Never...

    My 10 day old character is doing exploration sites with ease. He's also helped in mining ops with his industry corp. 1-2 years away from what you want to do means you're planning to do things that take 1-2 years. It's like starting up any other MMO and saying you want to be kitted in the best stuff in a month.

    Pick something more reasonable to aim for, other than flying a titan or carrier.

    Zor'katar
    Matari Recreation
    #686 - 2013-06-26 17:45:42 UTC
    Daniel Plain wrote:
    can we please let this terrible thread rest in peace?

    Apparently not.
    Xander Det89
    T.R.I.A.D
    Ushra'Khan
    #687 - 2013-06-26 18:12:32 UTC
    To an extent I felt the same as you when I started, but mainly because I dreamt of shiny capitals and big BS brawls... but hey, then i realised you can have fun in frigs/cruisers with low end skills and still be effective. Just find the right corp, get involved, fleet up and have some fun. Skills will come over time, then you can fly the shiny stuff.
    Radius Prime
    Tax Evading Ass.
    #688 - 2013-06-27 22:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Radius Prime
    Game as it is works perfectly, keeps the kiddies out. Most people responding here are NOT 10 year old vets. We all started years after the first generation and we all had to go through the newb phase training skills and actually learning to play the game and game mechanics. You are meant to grow from ship to ship, start a small corp that through superior management can grow into the leading corp within a huge alliance. Take that away and you destroy EVE.

    You could send a petition but don't expect any response or change since the game is working as intended. Your changes would only ruin the game with 1 month olds flying Titans and without any further goals quitting shortly after.

    BTW, buying that toon is your biggest mistake. It will get you excluded from certain alliances, it will never be you, you don't have the skill to fly it, its killboard ain't yours and it will forever be known as some1 elses toon.

    Eve has gotten a lot more accessible over the years, most of all by removing learning skills and by adding remaps. You are one month old, you know nothing and yet you are complaining and telling people who have been around for years what should be changed and done. My guess is you are very young with little experience of how the real world works. If you want to play adult games then learn to act like one in the first place.

    By weeding out the bad seeds EVE has managed to grow and develop as a game for over 10 years now. Compare this to the fast rise and even faster fall of your standard MMO and you will see it is exactly the way toons grow over time that supports this model.

    Don't ever compare EVE to WOW, if you want WOW go play it. But know that WOW is way simpler then its game ancestors and has since launch been simpler and simpler to the point a dog can play it and it no longer challenges anyone. Do not wish/force the same fate upon one of the last MMOS actually worth playing and slightly challenging.
    Aren't you tired of playing these simpleminded games like made by big developers that are pale shadows from what their predecessors were. Just look at what Blizzard has done to Diablo 3, simply ruined one of the best games ever, the mother of all action MORPHs. Look at the last SIMCITY installment, so ****** I threw it out and went back to SC4 after 3 days. At the same time all legendary strategy titles that actually were fun and challenging are disappearing because of bad promotion and not being compatible with the current game console market. The new generation doesn't even know these titles anymore. This trend is destroying the industry. Could go on ranting for a decade...

    Guess you get the message, hands off youngling, play some other games and come back to EVE when you are ready..

    If you stick to EVE welcome and you wont regret it, if not, was nice meeting you,

    Radius

    Edit: Sorry for dragging this terrible thread. Had no idea it was this long already.

    Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.

    Rhodopsin Pserad
    Ho Theos Geometrei
    #689 - 2013-07-07 12:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
    The skill point system isn't a problem for me - the loss of my last remnants of hope for humanity...

    Well...

    Einstein and Eisenhower would be pleased regarding the kind of argument this game provides against the current course of our political, military and economic systems.

    Anyway, now I know where Bethesda got inspiration for its portrayal for the sociopathic nerds of "The Think Tank." in Fallout NV. I'm still surprised how many characterize Dr. Mobius as the villain in that expansion - but that's all off-topic and we wouldn't want people deactivating fences.

    The mechanics in this game are great so far. I'm pretty pleased.

    "Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

    Blue Absinthe
    Wardec U
    #690 - 2013-07-07 21:48:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Blue Absinthe
    Gotta say, I didn't read every post but as a pretty new player I thought I'd chip in. I actually agree with the OP but it's not as bad as you think it is....

    The game has no mechanic for newer players to catch up to older players. That's just a fact. CCPs latest attempt to address this ('specialization' in the ship skills) involved them injecting 6 million new skill points into the game. Personally I think they couldn't see the wood for the trees when they came up with that plan. I think they need some radical alteration, like if you're using a skill then you accumulate SP faster in that skill (which actually gives you an incentive to play the game and feel that you're making 'progress').

    However I think it's not as bad as the OP thinks it is since if you focus your skill training on what you want to do then you can do it pretty quickly (the trick is to do what you want to do and not think 'oh I'll do this when I have these skills'). Mining, missioning, pvp? All doable quite quickly, you just need to know where to seek your content. After a couple of months my killboard was 140:25, so PvP is possible with very few SP. The issue (for me) is that I can't go to low sec and PvP since I'm just totally and utterly outclassed there (ships, SPs etc). I think it's a shame for older players that they don't get the injection of newer players into low sec, it's why it's so dead (a symptom of the SP issue in my opinion).
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #691 - 2013-07-07 23:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
    Blue Absinthe wrote:
    The game has no mechanic for newer players to catch up to older players. That's just a fact. CCPs latest attempt to address this ('specialization' in the ship skills) involved them injecting 6 million new skill points into the game. Personally I think they couldn't see the wood for the trees when they came up with that plan. I think they need some radical alteration, like if you're using a skill then you accumulate SP faster in that skill (which actually gives you an incentive to play the game and feel that you're making 'progress').

    More skill points = more diversity

    Those 6m extra SP are meaningless, because one cannot pilot all the ships at the same time.
    Zor'katar
    Matari Recreation
    #692 - 2013-07-08 00:54:18 UTC
    Blue Absinthe wrote:
    The game has no mechanic for newer players to catch up to older players. That's just a fact.

    Not really. For any given ship and fitting, there are a finite number of skills that help improve a character's performance. Once someone reaches level 5 in all those skills, he can no longer improve through the skill system, therefore anyone still training that role is in fact "catching up". At a more incremental level, say you have two characters, one of whom has all the relevant skills at level 4, the other at level 3. If both players are pouring all their SP into the same role, the level 3 character is going to see incremental improvements in his performance much faster than the level 4 character, thus closing the gap.

    Blue Absinthe wrote:
    I think they need some radical alteration, like if you're using a skill then you accumulate SP faster in that skill (which actually gives you an incentive to play the game and feel that you're making 'progress').

    See this thread for discussion on that topic.
    Frank Millar
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #693 - 2013-07-08 06:51:27 UTC
    I was hoping this thread would finally drop off the first page and be forgotten.

    Alas, it is not to be.

    Page 36 incoming.
    RavenPaine
    RaVeN Alliance
    #694 - 2013-07-08 07:01:28 UTC
    Frank Millar wrote:
    I was hoping this thread would finally drop off the first page and be forgotten.

    Alas, it is not to be.

    Page 36 incoming.




    I was thinking of making a bunch of trolls, comments, necro posts, etc. Just to bump this back a couple pages.
    Zor'katar
    Matari Recreation
    #695 - 2013-07-08 11:22:26 UTC
    Yeah, sorry to have contributed (again), but I was supremely bored last night.
    Dargon Swift
    Blades of Dawn
    Stribog Clade
    #696 - 2013-07-08 14:03:24 UTC
    Hefty TheFirst wrote:
    Am I speaking the wrong language?
    This is a serious discussion sidetracked by trolls.

    So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
    Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
    This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

    Three simple questions.
    Zero answers... Will Hefty prevail in finding the answers on the broken internet!?
    Find out on the next post. /commence epic outro!


    Yet, you call people who respond to you "idiots". It seems to me that you're only looking for those who agree with you.

    The fact is, you can have fun in this game at any skill level. That is the bottom line. If you're too impatient to achieve the skills needed to reach more advanced game play, than that is a your deficiency, not the game's. The game allows you to "level up" when you're not even playing, and part of the fun of Eve is achieving the goal of flying that next ship. I can fly every non-titan ship in Eve, use every t2 weapon and so on. Yet, I found the game more engaging when I was skilling for that next ship I wanted to fly.

    If you and your friends had stuck together and formed a competent fleet you could have killed any single pilot with 10x your combined SP. Eve rewards gangs of well organized fleets over any amount of SP. You and your friends failed to leverage your true strength. Numbers and camaraderie.

    I have trained and mentored dozens of new pilots. You can be in a competently fitted battlecruiser in 2-3 months, so I find most of your "facts" to be incorrect. Most core Eve vets like that impatient ignorant gamers leave Eve early.

    The SP system isn't broken. Your play-style is.
    Biff Ekpyrion
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #697 - 2013-07-08 17:38:07 UTC
    I only just started playing about six months ago, and this is my first time on the forums.
    I agree to an extent to the points OP made, althought not with his presentation.

    Now these are my opinions:

    On the one hand, this is truly a game that "keeps the kiddies" out. No child have the herculean patience needed to reach end-game (whatever that means) without buying a character. It's also, I suppose, a fact that you can have fun/be effective from day 1, and everyone don't need to fly battleships.

    On the other hand, I personally have found this system of simply waiting for skills to complete quite annoying and arbitrary, because I can't effect it. Sure, I can purchase implants and remap my attributes. But that chips away only a fraction. Althought that's beside the point; there's no way to actively do something to reach the goal faster. And yea, call me impatient if you will, but such a system is not fun to me. There's little incentive to actually log in if I don't like to fly T1 frigates all day.

    Now, I've done about 6 months now so I'm starting to be able to fly battle cruisers and stuff effectively. But to be honest, those six months were quite boring from time to time. I can certainly understand why people would give up before that. I had two friends with me that both got tired pretty much right away and quit. I stayed on simply because I wanted to play with my brother who was way ahead of me in SP and doing the whole null-sec thing. I've mostly just logged in to update my queue and then played other games. At least I shouldn't be charged full price until 15 mill SP or so.

    I guess a better system would be one where you can somehow speed up your training by using that skill, up to 25 % or so. I don't know.

    The thing is, if most EVE players like this system, fine, don't change it. There's nothing inherently evil about it. All I am saying is I can certainly see how it could severely limiting new players from joining.




    Freighdee Katt
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #698 - 2013-07-08 18:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
    Acidictadpole wrote:
    It's like starting up any other MMO and saying you want to be kitted in the best stuff in a month.

    To be fair, in a lot of other MMOs, and especially the recent ones, you can have one toon pretty dang well close to "the best stuff" in a month, assuming you can grind away 23x7 on it. In two or three months you can definitely have one toon fully geared in the typical modern theme park like SWTOR.

    The trend now is for games to make maxing out one character take a relatively short but fixed amount of calendar time. So progression is throttled with dailies and weekly token caps and raid locks, to ensure that nobody can blow through the grind in one week instead of eight or twelve. The hardcore grinders then have to turn to grinding many alts at once in order to keep going, but the grind is structured so that no one alt can be "done" in less than a certain minimum number of subscription periods.

    Even so, the minimum time from zero to EPIC is an order of magnitude shorter for modern games compared with the old school grinders. The "typical" time to level cap in SWTOR for an ordinary casual player is around 200 hours /played. And people were hitting the original level cap, pre-ROTHC, within 55 hours /played during the double XP weekends. That's less than one ordinary full-time work week for most North American adults. In older MMOs, the /played time to level cap could easily top 2,000 hours, especially for a poor and always struggling first toon. Even if it takes you another 100-200 hours of /played to do the gear grind in SWTOR, you're still far, far short of the typical year-long death march that older games required to max out.

    It's true that you can do a lot without being anywhere near "maxed out" in EvE. Then again, you're competing with people who are maxed out, and in EvE everything is PvP, so assuming equal levels of player skill, you are going to lose out more often with low SP than you will with high SP. And maxing out does take a long, long time in EvE, no matter how you cut it. It didn't seem long ten years ago, but most games from ten years ago have long gone away, or putter along today on legacy servers with a couple thousand grouchy old bittervets who won't log off until they turn the lights out.

    EvE suffers a bit in comparison today because it is still going strong and actually does attract a lot of new players, and the basis for comparison among those players has shifted a long way in a decade.

    On the other hand the fact that it takes a long time to max out is offset by the fact that you don't have to "do" anything to get there, other than log in once every couple days (once every couple months, eventually). In that sense EvE is a great game to play when you're not actually playing it, because you can do something else entirely (like play a whole other game), and you wind up with just as much new SP at the end of a year as the person who was logged in 23x7. While it's not a great game for those who need instant gratification, it's an excellent game for people who like to be rewarded for doing almost nothing.

    EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

    Tachibane Kanade
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #699 - 2013-07-09 08:44:02 UTC
    As a low SP player myself (15mill SP) I understand the frustrations of the poster. However I disagree:

    Yes, it might be frustrating, I mean if I have to look at the things I 'need' to train still it gives me a slight headache how long it would still take. And I keep saying to myself... what if I could just buy one of those 100mill+ toons from the character bazaar? I could fly all those wonderfull things etc.

    Then I can't help but feel that I am still a stupid little newbie in a expensive clone and I hardly know how to play the game properly.
    So I keep getting to the same point, I think it's designed well, with your limited SP you are able to do things limited and far from optimal, however by doing all kinds of things you learn so much about EVE and you will start to see the benefits of upgrading certain skills much more then when you just buy a 100M+ character and start learning from there.

    Just my thoughts on the matter.

    Regards
    Mr Morita
    Xtreme Role Players
    #700 - 2013-07-09 18:26:10 UTC
    HTFU?