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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Heritas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#741 - 2013-08-10 23:14:08 UTC
I just finished reading this roller coaster ride of a thread start to finish. Firstly, I deserve a medal for extreme perseverance. Secondly, I suggest this thread be stickied so every person thinking about the "SP wall" issue can se this thread and realize that there is quite literally nothing left to say on the matter.

Thirdly, I think that, when you think about it, the best ship you can find in this game requires no SP at all and it's called friendship. I joined the game in late beta and bought it straight after launch. I've played solo for the most part or with a few RL friends whenever I trick someone into joining except my first year when i was in a couple of large corporations. And even though isk is easier to come by and alot of options are open that weren't back then, I find myself missing those times when I always had someone online to chat with. Not having the best ship and getting suboptimal SP/hr just doesn't seem like a big deal when you are having fun with other people.

If there is a problem, I think it is with the perception that the game won't be fun until you can *insert whatever activity*. I do think that the solution lies in further development of the NPE but not in changing the SP system. CCP should be given credit for how far they have come and I do not suspect they are done with it yet. I think that the whole certification system needs an overhaul for if a new player uses them to guide training he/she ends up doing alot of level V's that are in no way needed and bolster training times significantly.

Lastly, I also think that if we as a community are inviting and thoughtful when it comes to new players, ready to give advice when asked, the newcomers will see how delightful our sandbox is.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#742 - 2013-08-11 00:34:38 UTC
Heritas I was going to give you a like for point 1. But then you made point two and ignored it, continuing on with a wall of text instead.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#743 - 2013-08-11 04:00:16 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
And as has already been stated numerous times, SP for activity used to be a thing and was removed because it was vastly exploited.



When was this????

Not sure. Way before my time. Early early days (maybe beta?). Only know what I've read.
Llyona
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#744 - 2013-08-11 04:36:24 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:

[Omitted needless gloating], I'm the one challenging CCP for more content aimed at old players, which is something they haven't been doing in the last few years.

What sort of content have you been lobbying for?

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.

Orlacc
#745 - 2013-08-11 04:49:48 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Orlacc wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
And as has already been stated numerous times, SP for activity used to be a thing and was removed because it was vastly exploited.



When was this????

Not sure. Way before my time. Early early days (maybe beta?). Only know what I've read.



How about never? Jeez.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Heritas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#746 - 2013-08-11 08:07:34 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Heritas I was going to give you a like for point 1. But then you made point two and ignored it, continuing on with a wall of text instead.


Hey! I thought EVE was about patience and finishing what you start. As such, this thread is the perfect lesson for any new player ;)
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#747 - 2013-08-11 15:02:50 UTC
Llyona wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:

[Omitted needless gloating], I'm the one challenging CCP for more content aimed at old players, which is something they haven't been doing in the last few years.

What sort of content have you been lobbying for?



Tech 3 battlecruisers.
Tech 3 battleships.
Tech 3 destroyers.
Tech 3 frigates.

Tech 2 capital weapons for all races and even releasing some extra capital modules to allow more variability in setups.


Advancing the game storyline such as finally opening up the eve gate and see the origins of everyone that currently lives in the eve universe, and if they still exist or are now friendly or hostile and if their technology vastly outguns anything in eve since they do have a 20 000 year lead afterall, including even jovian technology and forces all 4 races as well as the jove, to finally work together and set aside their differences if they want to survive should humans now be hostile....Twisted


Things that have no bearing on how much SP the player has as far as the latter example is concerned, but would affect everyone and advance the game to a huge degree.....
Konsul Pares
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#748 - 2013-08-13 13:44:04 UTC
I want to add my views. I have played mmorpgs for 11the yrs and just came to eve three weeks ago.I like it so far.
I want to own a Damnation and it would be nice to have a utility that lets me train for it.
Skill training in my opinion is crucial to success. So, I say leave it as it is and learn the skills you need to get where you want to be.
Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#749 - 2013-08-14 16:10:36 UTC
The SP wall is not that intense. You only need to train a handful of specific skills to lvl 5 in order to be competative in any aspect of this game. It is sufficient to just be lvl 3 or 4 in a skill that boosts your activity in w/e way you desire.

Your point about the design of the game turning away new players is correct, in my opinion, because new players are just not aware of their capabilities. However, if they find a good corp, I think that a lot of players could be retained.

Basically, I agree that there is an issue with player retention, but not the SP wall as it's direct cause. I think it's just that the game can be painfully dull without friends to guide you and spend time with.

Also, I am saying this as a brand new player myself. Without my corp, I would have probably considered EVE to be a waste of my time and money.
Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#750 - 2013-08-14 16:15:15 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:

Tech 3 battlecruisers.
Tech 3 battleships.
Tech 3 destroyers.
Tech 3 frigates.

Tech 2 capital weapons for all races and even releasing some extra capital modules to allow more variability in setups.


Advancing the game storyline such as finally opening up the eve gate and see the origins of everyone that currently lives in the eve universe, and if they still exist or are now friendly or hostile and if their technology vastly outguns anything in eve since they do have a 20 000 year lead afterall, including even jovian technology and forces all 4 races as well as the jove, to finally work together and set aside their differences if they want to survive should humans now be hostile....Twisted


Things that have no bearing on how much SP the player has as far as the latter example is concerned, but would affect everyone and advance the game to a huge degree.....



^
This is a huge complaint/argument I have heard also. Well done.
Stealth Manufacture
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#751 - 2013-08-14 16:18:48 UTC
Long post, I must give you that.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.


I don't quite agree with you. EVE is such a big game, that if you didn't take this time training the skills, you would simply not get to know the entire game.

I don't think that it is true that you can't do anything special before 1.5 years of training. It takes just a few days to prepare yourself for market training. A week or two to get decent frigate skills for PvP and while mastering the PvP of a frigate you can train for cruisers.

After just 2 months of gaming EVE I think you rush it a bit saying that newbies don't stand a chance. I think this is completely opposite. Good thing about this game compared to many other MMO's is that new players actually can do a difference even tho they haven't played for years.
Torrent Talon
Metaphysical Quantum Anomaly Research Laboratory
#752 - 2013-08-15 13:58:18 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
The first thing I'd have to ask is simply...

What goals are you looking at which require 1-2 years of training?

In terms of straightforward goals the only ones I can think of in that range would be the high-end of capital ships - I might suggest these to be end-game content (though end-game is a little bit of a flexible term). You don't want the end-game content immediately, it would be boring.

The journey is important, quiting because you can't get a Titan on day 2 misses the point of that.

SP is a visible measure of what you're capable of, of course, but it's a deceptive one. A pilot with half a million of the right SP and the knowledge and resources to leverage it properly is far better off than one with 100 million of the wrong SP, the wrong ship, the wrong situation...

And there is no lower limit on the number of SP it takes to have fun - I know several pilots who were pirating lowsec, ratting null or engaging in fleet battles with less than a million SPs, in some cases created specifically to minimise their clone costs...


I am somewhat impressed that you were able to answer some of the questions.

1-2 years of training would put you into a capital ship yes. Core skills? NO.
Now go ask some one that has a capital ship. They will say it's suicide.

Now I can see your angle but I nowhere near stated that I'm butthurt because I can't fly a Titan.
Half a million vs 100m that was funny... Really funny. There you are talking about some who knows the game in and out.
Probably an alt flying with the 500k SP. So the main account is the real player not the 500k SP.

Also this post is for NEW PLAYERS AND WHY MOST OF THEM QUIT SO EARLY.
Pirating in lowsec to minimise clone cost with low SP. That isn't even a sentence.
If you can't afford your clone cost you are doing something very wrong with all that "A pilot with half a million of the right SP and the knowledge and resources to leverage it properly is far better off than one with 100 million of the wrong SP, the wrong ship, the wrong situation...".

You look incredibly stupid right now.
I don't even really want to post this reply but you asked for it.


It really shows how little you know of PvP in eve if you think SP mean everything, I can't explain why this is in some cases true and some cases incorrect, but I have 70 million sp and I got killed by a pilot that was simply fit to counter my ship, nothing iIcould do, instead of asking something to be done maybe you should do what all EvE players that are fine with this system do, HTFU

Lastly, i think this post is a Troll
Xatox Erata
People of the Saiya
Silent Company
#753 - 2013-08-16 11:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Xatox Erata
As a new player id like to comment on this thread, in my opinion in order to have fun and "succeed" in this game, you should do plenty of reading before taking a certain direction in the game, and join a corp thats active and newb friendly.

I am 2 weeks into this game now, and i have 48 days of training left to fly a fully T2 fit battle cruiser and Partial T2 mining barge and T2 mining drones. Once im there, i can set new goals for myself. In my opinion thats not that much time at all. As long as you know what to aim for you can fly it fairly fast, but if you expect to do everything possible within the game in a few months well.. youll be dissapointed.
PhantomTrojan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#754 - 2013-08-17 05:06:35 UTC
a 2 years content is not a very realist goal to look for in the near future, that is a huge mistake that a lot of newbs do. At least i did aim for a carrier when i was a beginner but then realized that i did not really needed a carrier at that time. that is some huge bullshit that you need one year to do anything, 1 month at most you can actually be useful in a lot of stuff. in 1 month you can easily be able to fill a role in most content: like lv4 mission, pvp, mining, market, damn pretty much everything.

It is not about doing everything, specialization is the key, pick a goal and train 1 month for it and you will be able to do it.

for the record im using my 3 months old alt as main because for my main clones are too expensive, he can actually do nice pvp . =)
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#755 - 2013-08-17 07:06:25 UTC
Comparing EVE to WoW is like comparing apples to polar bears. Yes, they are both organic, but that's about as far as it goes. I wish more folks understood this when they began the game, it would help them alot in the long run. One cannot, must not think of EVE as "SpaceWoW", unless you really really enjoy pain and disappointment. EVE is harsh. EVE is challenging. EVE is vast. EVE is full of opportunities for fun and profit, excitement and loss. It is not an easy game, there's a pic that's been floating around on the internet for years graphing the learning curves of various MMO's that's hilarious and accurate.

That being said, I don't want to discourage any new players... just keep in mind that you are dealing with something entirely different. The "SP Wall" is an illusion. The reason most new players perceive it as so is because they are focusing too much on what is on the horizon rather than what's right in front of them. It's understandable, those big badass ships are very shiny and well... cool. I myself have issues with being distracted by shiny objects from time to time. My advice is to keep your options open as a newer player, work on the skills that you need like your cores, and learn to enjoy what is within your reach. Make short term goals, formulate a plan, dabble to find out what you enjoy, then follow through.

Mostly, don't get discouraged. Make some friends and see how much fun you can have NOW rather than worrying about how long it's going to take to get into that big shiny thing. Patience pays off in EVE, it really does.
Fly safe.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Demica Diaz
SE-1
#756 - 2013-08-17 12:15:33 UTC
Its not skillpoints that breaking the new players, its the modern player attitude of "give me now and give me fast!".
Orlacc
#757 - 2013-08-17 17:21:35 UTC
WoW needs to get rid of levels.

I want monkeys in cowboy suits!

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#758 - 2013-08-18 13:29:48 UTC
This thread makes me laugh.

Any new player that compains this games too rough shoulda tried when I started. It was an uphill flight both ways in and out of the stations, often in heavy amounts of snow. And people before me had an even rougher new player experience. When i played you had to spend about a month and a half learning skills...that taught you how to learn just in order to feasibly train skills later on in your career.

CCP has made leaps and bounds to improve how new players get into the game. The tutorials are MUCH better, starting quests and career fields actually teach you some stuff, and giving you some very heavy hints to go find a corporation have done wonders I am sure for new player retention. Getting rid of learning skills was a great move many of you take for granted.

The goals you have set for yourself are simply too far out/too high fi your finding yourselves months before your having fun. Theres a pretty big difference between competent and perfect. You can competently have the skills to fly a crusier within a couple weeks, perfectly? yeah that may be months but you dont need lvl 5 in every related skill to fly a ship.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Princess Bride
SharkNado
#759 - 2013-08-18 18:47:33 UTC
Just an observation......

This thread is 38 pages long.

OP's last reply was on page 6.

10/10 for the troll.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Ellon JTC
Quadralien
#760 - 2013-08-19 13:03:01 UTC
I really don't understand whats wrong with the current system?

You want to mine? well instead of flying a hulk fly a retriever

you want to run missions? instead of the tech II battles ship with tech II guns fly tech I stuff

you want to manufacture? make tech I ****



you can do all the activities you want from the start.


BUT if you consider yourself better than the rest, think you deserve the tech II battle ships and tech II guns NOW, make the isk and buy the character off the bazar. ( I know many players that have made big chunks of money from the very start)