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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1161 - 2013-08-08 12:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
None ofthe Above wrote:

I would be interested in that link. Last I heard was that the code was "forked", which means they started from the same base as EVE but not bothering to commit any changes back to the original branch of the code. Some folk may view that as abandoning the Carbon engine but it shouldn't be.

If they've really chucked it out and started with ANOTHER custom engine, well they are working on a Duke Nukem release schedule then. I'd just write it off at that point.


When I said 'abandoned the Carbon engine as it is known', I meant that the Carbon engine they are working with for WoD is not the same as the one we have for Eve. "Forked" is right, it is apparently the same engine but customized (who knows how much) to be a better fit for the WoD project.

I get the impression that for the "fork" to have been noteworthy there must be significant changes, and therefore we're unlikely to see much content ported from one to the other. That is more or less personal interpretation, but I don't think it sounds good.

The original thread linked below; (I spent half an hour looking through my posts because the search function isn't working.)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174634
It has the article this information was taken from. Apparently information leaked by a CCP employee to the chap who wrote the article.

Below a quote from the original article;

Quote:
We are able to report that the original idea of both EVE and the WoD MMO using a unified Incarna/Carbon engine is no more and hasn't been for some time.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1162 - 2013-08-08 14:27:14 UTC
We saw what CCP (Torfi) had envisioned, and we embraced it.

Saying that we should go and play SecondLife instead is pure nonsense. We don't want avatars for the sake of avatars. What we want, is to expand the game within its setting. We want to continue the intrigue and drama of both player created content (alliances, corporations) and RP story after we docked.

While VoIP and forums are very nice to do this, WIS would be taking it a step further.

We're patient Smile

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1163 - 2013-08-08 14:40:02 UTC
Jill has it exactly right. EVE is all about sandboxy building, and there is no good reason why that sandboxy building has to be confined to spaceships. Indeed, it already isn't - there are players who make fortuns on market manipulation without ever undocking, others who get their corporations to bring them the minerals they turn into ships, and others still whose major contribution to the game has involved Teamspeak more than it has the F1 button.

Then there's EVEbet and Somer Blink, neither of which directly involve spaceships.

if there are new frontiers to explore where we assemble, say, hive-of-scum-and-villainy drinking dens where pilots can do business in deregulated cybernetics and black market modules, or casinos where interstellar intrigue plays out over hands of Shield Tank and exorbitantly priced glasses of whisky, then I personally want to explore those frontiers.

EVE is not just Internet spaceships.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Taiwanistan
#1164 - 2013-08-08 14:40:56 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
We saw what CCP (Torfi) had envisioned, and we embraced it.

Saying that we should go and play SecondLife instead is pure nonsense. We don't want avatars for the sake of avatars. What we want, is to expand the game within its setting. We want to continue the intrigue and drama of both player created content (alliances, corporations) and RP story after we docked.

While VoIP and forums are very nice to do this, WIS would be taking it a step further.

We're patient Smile

give an example of how avatars will be used to achieve the above.

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1165 - 2013-08-08 14:41:43 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
We saw what CCP (Torfi) had envisioned, and we embraced it.

I think that was the vision we all bought in to, too bad CCP failed in a spectacular way to produce something even remotely close to it.

Ah well I will still be here in 10 years time so who knows, we may one day get to open that door after all.

How to win EVE
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1166 - 2013-08-08 14:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Taiwanistan wrote:
give an example of how avatars will be used to achieve the above.


Let's say I dock on a Duvolle station. There are labs here. Duvolle Laboratories, full of prototype weapon and module schematics.

Those are the sort of thing I might want to get my hands on, to procure an edge in my space battles. I've got a few options. Maybe I can try to hack their systems for myself. Maybe I can hire somebody to do it for me. Maybe I've got hold of these things and want to make money off them rather than use them.

Maybe I want to do all of this without CONCORD noticing and damaging my security rating as a result, so I have to do it in person, face-to-face, in a bar. Maybe I can be the buyer rather than the seller and get these modules off somebody who's already done the dangerous part. Or some illegal deregulated implants with the limiters taken off.

Maybe I want to play a shell game to throw off the licensed enforcer who's trying to sniff out the black market by making it look like my place is the smuggler's dive, rather than the nice place my friend owns two systems over.

Maybe I want to make guns and tanks and stuff to sell to the DUST troopers, and need to use smaller scale factories than the ones capsuleers use, which can only be installed in corporate offices rather than coming with the station and being available to everyone.

Maybe I want to set up my own epic mission arcs and send people all over New Eden in a relationship where they get paid for doing the arc, and I get paid a little bit too.

Maybe I want to make NPC agents obsolete, and put mission running in player hands.

There are all sorts of options, if you just exercise a little imagination.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#1167 - 2013-08-08 15:13:02 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

Maybe I want to set up my own epic mission arcs and send people all over New Eden in a relationship where they get paid for doing the arc, and I get paid a little bit too.

Maybe I want to make NPC agents obsolete, and put mission running in player hands.

There are all sorts of options, if you just exercise a little imagination.


Good examples that remind me of something couple of days ago. Let's say that CCP decided to make the WiS part as something that was optional for capsuleers and either low price or free to play for non-capsuleers (and essentially meant to be gateway drug for them in order to get them hooked to EVE and get them to acquire pilot license). Now, to get around the non-capsuleers could hire other players, or NPC transports. Either one could be destroyed by players and non-capsuleer would then be stranded at closest station or planet. Not only might there be hazards out there to overcome (environment, hostiles), but they might have to light a beacon, to which any other player could then respond to, pick up the stranded player and drop off at drop off point. Some suitable NPC faction would then issue ISK and standing reward. Sort of player initiated dynamic mission, which could even be extended to include wormhole space.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1168 - 2013-08-08 15:26:27 UTC
Stitcher you're asking the hardcore anti-WIS crowd to consider that there could be other play style options within a supposed sandbox game? That they think outside the box? To consider that a 10 year old niche market game needs something new and vibrant in order to grow the player base? To use a little imagination? Shocked

Not like it matters much anyway. CCP's so cowed by this group and so afraid to take any risks for fear it might lead to another "Incarna Gate" that I doubt we'll ever see anything remotely like the scenarios you described. They're going to feed us a steady diet of ship and module tweaks, UI fixes and the occasional bland new content and attempt to pass it off as major expansions.

Don't misunderstand me; there's nothing at all wrong with fixing parts of the game that are broken, or have been neglected for years. Rebalancing, bug fixing and iteration are wonderful initiatives that should be ongoing. I just wonder why we can't also have some real innovation to go along with that.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1169 - 2013-08-08 16:14:29 UTC
Taiwanistan wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
(snip)We want to continue the intrigue and drama of both player created content (alliances, corporations) and RP story after we docked.

While VoIP and forums are very nice to do this, WIS would be taking it a step further.
(snip)

give an example of how avatars will be used to achieve the above.


(Well, let's say we both dock at the same station in Old Man Star.)

You walk through the station over to the Old Man's Inn. As you open the door, you halt briefly to see what's going on.

You notice gambling tables in the far right, exotic dancers on a central stage and a traditional bar to the left. But something didn't fit in. You glance back to the center ... and there in front of the exotic dancers stands a blonde in a white dress and a Hello Kitty handbag. She blinks and attempts some awkward dancing moves. Your stomach turns.

You've seen this disgusting person on the forum before. You had decided to pod her, whenever you'd get a chance. Alas she rarely undocked in anything bigger than her Hello Kitty Ibis. ... at least her ship was not pink like the gross handbag she sported now.

Destroying a rookie ship with limited chance of a podding was not enough. Jill Xelitras had to pay the ultimate price for blending the awful cuteness of Hello Kitty with the dark cruel world that is New Eden.

You had considered other means before. A slander campaign on the forum ? It had no effect.
Infiltrating Xeltec Services ... the application was declined on a f***ing Hello Kitty stationary X

The only option that was left, was financial ruin. You take a long look at the gambling tables and smile ...

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1170 - 2013-08-08 16:27:53 UTC
Quote:
Don't misunderstand me; there's nothing at all wrong with fixing parts of the game that are broken, or have been neglected for years.


WIS is such part.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Taiwanistan
#1171 - 2013-08-08 16:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Taiwanistan
Stitcher wrote:
Taiwanistan wrote:
give an example of how avatars will be used to achieve the above.


Let's say I dock on a Duvolle station. There are labs here. Duvolle Laboratories, full of prototype weapon and module schematics.

Those are the sort of thing I might want to get my hands on, to procure an edge in my space battles. I've got a few options. Maybe I can try to hack their systems for myself. Maybe I can hire somebody to do it for me. Maybe I've got hold of these things and want to make money off them rather than use them.

Maybe I want to do all of this without CONCORD noticing and damaging my security rating as a result, so I have to do it in person, face-to-face, in a bar. Maybe I can be the buyer rather than the seller and get these modules off somebody who's already done the dangerous part. Or some illegal deregulated implants with the limiters taken off.

Maybe I want to play a shell game to throw off the licensed enforcer who's trying to sniff out the black market by making it look like my place is the smuggler's dive, rather than the nice place my friend owns two systems over.

Maybe I want to make guns and tanks and stuff to sell to the DUST troopers, and need to use smaller scale factories than the ones capsuleers use, which can only be installed in corporate offices rather than coming with the station and being available to everyone.

Maybe I want to set up my own epic mission arcs and send people all over New Eden in a relationship where they get paid for doing the arc, and I get paid a little bit too.

Maybe I want to make NPC agents obsolete, and put mission running in player hands.

There are all sorts of options, if you just exercise a little imagination.


christ it's hey lets add to the tedium of clicking thorough invention/manufacturing with the added fun of w-a-s-d -ing your avatar's slow catwalk model strut to some console before you can even start the clickfest.
on missioning, and epic arc. why would you get paid "some isk" while other people complete the mission in space? why would someone post a 50mil or whatever reward for other people to blow up some npc ships? for lp? can i just use a contract?

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Taiwanistan
#1172 - 2013-08-08 16:38:25 UTC
my own idea for wis is like an alley-oop in basketball but for podding, i suicide gank someone's avatar, which is equivalent of a podkill, my buddy or alt ambushes the victim again immediately upon clone awakening. a successful attempt will result in loss of skill points for the victims, something like that. intel on where the victim's clone is based at will be provided by hacking game of some sort. to avoid getting slam dunked by an alley-oop one should place their clones in a nullsec station or shift them around periodically. maybe a notification mail will be sent out alerting players that others are sniffing out where their clone is based at.

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1173 - 2013-08-08 16:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I've been playing around with the Shadowrun Returns editor recently, creating my own story for people to go and play. Player-made content is going to, in theory, become the core of the game's appeal with time. I'm just inspired by that - the idea that players can create their own stories and draw other players in. Adding a reward for both runner and creator is an added bonus - bear in mind, where it's happened in, say Neverwinter Nights, there has been no actual reward for the creators beyond satisfaction.

It was less a serious suggestion than an illustration that there are opportunities to be had in station environments which may not exist elsewhere in the game. Figuring out what those opportunities are would just involve going off on a tangent a bit which is no bad thing.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1174 - 2013-08-08 17:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Good examples that remind me of something couple of days ago. Let's say that CCP decided to make the WiS part as something that was optional for capsuleers and either low price or free to play for non-capsuleers (and essentially meant to be gateway drug for them in order to get them hooked to EVE and get them to acquire pilot license). Now, to get around the non-capsuleers could hire other players, or NPC transports. Either one could be destroyed by players and non-capsuleer would then be stranded at closest station or planet. Not only might there be hazards out there to overcome (environment, hostiles), but they might have to light a beacon, to which any other player could then respond to, pick up the stranded player and drop off at drop off point. Some suitable NPC faction would then issue ISK and standing reward. Sort of player initiated dynamic mission, which could even be extended to include wormhole space.


I have always loved this idea. I think the idea of "non-capsuleers" playing F2P is fantastic, and would add so much depth to the game. Imagine a pirate stopping a hauler full of passengers in lowsec and ransoming all the passengers as well as the driver. Imagine, setting up a con where you promise to move passengers but take them out to lowsec and ransom their lives or steal their goods. No pilots licence(sub)? Then you have to rely on people with a sub to leave the station.

Taiwanistan wrote:
my own idea for wis is like an alley-oop in basketball but for podding, i suicide gank someone's avatar, which is equivalent of a podkill, my buddy or alt ambushes the victim again immediately upon clone awakening. a successful attempt will result in loss of skill points for the victims, something like that. intel on where the victim's clone is based at will be provided by hacking game of some sort. to avoid getting slam dunked by an alley-oop one should place their clones in a nullsec station or shift them around periodically. maybe a notification mail will be sent out alerting players that others are sniffing out where their clone is based at.


In the Empyrean age book, the Broker permanently kills a capsuleer by finding where his clone is stored. He kills him in space and then crashes a Nyx into the station that houses the guy's capsule, destroying the station. Bad ass. Would be cool to do something similar in the station. Put a bullet in their head as the clone vat opens. It would have to be nearly impossible to find the clone vat they are using, unless they were stupid enough to tell someone where their clone is stored.

Stitcher wrote:
I've been playing around with the Shadowrun Returns editor recently, creating my own story for people to go and play. Player-made content is going to, in theory, become the core of the game's appeal with time. I'm just inspired by that - the idea that players can create their own stories and draw other players in. Adding a reward for both runner and creator is an added bonus - bear in mind, where it's happened in, say Neverwinter Nights, there has been no actual reward for the creators beyond satisfaction.


I played and hosted my own server/world in Neverwinter Nights. It was hugely popular and I loved it. Just having created my own thing that people enjoyed was reward enough on it's own. If Eve could add some kind of highly versatile powerful player made content to stations, Eve would carry on indefinitely. Neverwinter Nights, despite being dropped by developers, still has a huge following today because of player made content. I would love for there to be something like that for Eve.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Taiwanistan
#1175 - 2013-08-08 17:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Taiwanistan
YES! Arduemont, that's where i got that idea from, also, didn't one of the two leaders of the
Guristas saw his demise under similar circumstances.

and i agree, it should be extremely difficult, the holy grail and moby **** of every ganker.

Ideally, I'd like to see Team Avatar achieve their own vision for wis, which is described in their own words, in my signature below. So no, I am not "hardcore anti-wis", I just don't like getting force fed dogshite like incarna.

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#1176 - 2013-08-08 17:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Karhunen
CCP could harness players' energy and creativity. They could release tools for terrain/structure creation as well as instructions. Possibly extend it for other areas. Players could then play around with the tools, submit them for CCP and their art team could then check if the material can be used. All rights of course would go for CCP (I don't think it would be worthwhile for them otherwise), but player who made it could get some credit for it and maybe reward of sorts (ISK?).

It is not like this is new idea anyway. Others have tread that before and shown that it can work.

Oh, and Arduemont and Taiwanistan. I really like that idea of having possibility to hunt player down and destroy their clones. There could be some form of limitation, like having character's clones under better supervision for the first few months or so. Give them enough time to get on their feet before pulling the rug from beneath them.

Edit: I recall hearing that WoD is supposed to have permadeath included. So why not EVE as well?

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#1177 - 2013-08-08 17:48:03 UTC
W. O. W.

I can't believe this thread is still alive! I guess hope springs eternal... Lol

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Silent Rambo
Orion Positronics
#1178 - 2013-08-08 19:10:45 UTC
Taiwanistan wrote:

awwwww pooo poo no emoting for you with a bunch of other dudes in "a room"


You could say all interaction in this game is basically dumb at its base level. "Awww poo, not shooting fake lasers at imaginary star ships". The major point of an MMO is to foster human interaction in a setting where they can work together or against each other and have fun. Fostering that human interaction is where WiS should go in the first place. The fact is why does walking in stations have to affect in space content directly? It really doesn't, especially in its first iterations. If you don't need this, then don't do it. It isn't all about what you like, its also about what everyone else will like too, and continuing to polish EvE forever without actually adding new and different content will only make the game die.

Stations should be separate place were people can interact with each other, buy things, sell things, under the table deals, chat, interact, and relax. Be a business man, open a casino, bar, or corporate recruiting office. There are so many possibilities. Have a little imagination.


You really think someone would do that? Just log into EvE and tell lies?
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1179 - 2013-08-08 19:40:34 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


In a very literal way, EVE is not going anywhere because there is noone at the wheel


In a very literal way, this is absolutely untrue.


So there is actually a Plan but, let me guess: it's NDA'ed!

So I must trust you.


Yes, precisely. Until CCP chose to make that communication I am absolutely forbidden to reveal anything about what they said to us on the subject. I did what I was able to which was to raise the issue and get an official answer.

Nevertheless there is a very competent person "in charge of EVE" at the moment. CCP have a plan for EVE, I have seen it, I think they can deliver it.


Good for you, but I will rather trust what I see.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1180 - 2013-08-08 20:26:11 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Taiwanistan wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
(snip)We want to continue the intrigue and drama of both player created content (alliances, corporations) and RP story after we docked.

While VoIP and forums are very nice to do this, WIS would be taking it a step further.
(snip)

give an example of how avatars will be used to achieve the above.


(Well, let's say we both dock at the same station in Old Man Star.)

You walk through the station over to the Old Man's Inn. As you open the door, you halt briefly to see what's going on.

You notice gambling tables in the far right, exotic dancers on a central stage and a traditional bar to the left. But something didn't fit in. You glance back to the center ... and there in front of the exotic dancers stands a blonde in a white dress and a Hello Kitty handbag. She blinks and attempts some awkward dancing moves. Your stomach turns.

You've seen this disgusting person on the forum before. You had decided to pod her, whenever you'd get a chance. Alas she rarely undocked in anything bigger than her Hello Kitty Ibis. ... at least her ship was not pink like the gross handbag she sported now.

Destroying a rookie ship with limited chance of a podding was not enough. Jill Xelitras had to pay the ultimate price for blending the awful cuteness of Hello Kitty with the dark cruel world that is New Eden.

You had considered other means before. A slander campaign on the forum ? It had no effect.
Infiltrating Xeltec Services ... the application was declined on a f***ing Hello Kitty stationary X

The only option that was left, was financial ruin. You take a long look at the gambling tables and smile ...


(a npc station in hisec)

Data stash unlocked. Downloading Mr. Dumb files 88% complete.

Security breach! sniffer alert!

Inside his pod, H. does his best to save his avatar's life, to no avail. Someone's gonna pay the 125 million ISK implant on that sniffer drone clone...

(another npc station in hisec)

- This... this can't be...
- You should had been more sensible, Mr. Dumb.
- What's the price of slence?
- Heh. You're such a lucky man. Because, this time, there is going to be a price. Listen up...

(inside a NPC agent's office)

Lvl 2 (WiS) available: a private contractor is in need to have a certain obnoxius person silenced. ref: F! Mr Dumb
Lvl 4 (FiS) available: a private contractor needs a certain space casino blown out. Ref: Mr. Dumb
Lvl 3 (FiS) available: a private contractor needs to protect a certain station from pirate attack. Ref: Save Dumb

(New Eden Times)

Station officer found dead, cyborg drone clone suspected. (...)

(inside a NPC agent's office)

PvP: H. wanted dead. ISK 1 billion, single pay
Lvl 4 (WiS) Hacking of CONCORD distress signal wanted. Ref: Bring me the head of H.
Lvl 5 (WiS) Hacking of CONCORD records required: Ref: H loves his ass.

(inside The Greater Fool Bar)

- H., you shouldn't be showing your mug here...
- But, aren't we friends?
- Pay me first, you still owe me what you lost betting for A.'s gladiator.
- I swear she sold her out!
- You still owe me what you lost...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you