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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#521 - 2011-11-11 03:05:01 UTC
Continuing from post above, about the antimatter damage boost thing, if rails could do abit more damage at close range(antimatter damage buff) they'd actually have some sort of benefit over the other turrets in some situations atleast.

Not sure how it'd balance out in the big picture, but it'd be pretty cool if rails got a unique trait (lasers insta swap, do silly good damage, no reload, good tracking) Arty got silly good Alpha, one solution would be for rails to do abit more damage at short/mid range, this would also make the Caldari optimal range bonus somewhat decent aswell I guess.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#522 - 2011-11-11 03:17:37 UTC
Been thinking about this some more, and am reposting this from a separate topic:

The bottom line is that if Gallente ships are supposed to be faster than Caldari and Amarr ships (but not as fast as Minmatar) then their weapons should have better range than Minimatar ships. The idea that blasters must be super short range seems to be locked into your heads, and perhaps you should disabuse yourself of that notion and extend their range considerably - make them function in-between AC's and pulse lasers in terms of damage and range.

Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons. The same goes for Gallente ships; they're basically fine, its the blasters themselves that are at issue. Increase their optimal a lot and their falloff a little, reduce tracking and damage a bit and see how the numbers add up. Blaster boats won't need to be as fast as Minmatar if they have better range, and I think that works better for Caldari ships too, if they want to use blasters for a change (blaster ferox is pretty decent) since they're usually slower than Gallente ships, but finally their hybrid range bonus will make up that difference.

Improving tech 2 like Null and Void is fine, but the tech 1 ammo and guns need to be useable as well; you can't decide to play Gallente ships and then have to wait until you've got tech 2 guns to use them properly.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#523 - 2011-11-11 04:27:38 UTC
What about drones? Specifically Ewar drones and combat utility drones? Buff the hell out of their ewar strength. Buff their speed and hit points. Add a light and medium webber drone. Add drones with warp disruptor points but not scramblers.

Revisit Gallente ships and make sure their drone bays are sufficient to take advantage of this. There's more then one way to skin a cat.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2011-11-11 05:03:49 UTC
Jazz Styles wrote:

Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons.

Armor plates and agility and mass penalties are new to the game compare to the stats that the weapons have and were never balanced with them in mind. HENCE it might being a good idea to do so.

Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2011-11-11 05:25:20 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Jazz Styles wrote:

Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons.

Armor plates and agility and mass penalties are new to the game compare to the stats that the weapons have and were never balanced with them in mind. HENCE it might being a good idea to do so.


Agility and mass were added to enhance the game, removing them would be a step backwards; devolution as it were. This topic is about updating hybrids, and that's what should be happening given the current statistics on armour.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#526 - 2011-11-11 05:35:22 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
[quote=Jazz Styles]
Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons.

Armor plates and agility and mass penalties are new to the game compare to the stats that the weapons have and were never balanced with them in mind. HENCE it might being a good idea to do so.

Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#527 - 2011-11-11 05:46:31 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
[quote=Jazz Styles]
Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons.

Armor plates and agility and mass penalties are new to the game compare to the stats that the weapons have and were never balanced with them in mind. HENCE it might being a good idea to do so.


Why not just make some gallente ships shield tankers?

If Armor + Blasters doesn't work I would think trying Shield + Blasters should be tried before you fundamentally alter game mechanics.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#528 - 2011-11-11 06:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Excuse typos its on an Ipad, and I had a drink or 3. So, just to try to summarize many of these ideas into a simple form that wont involve too much tinkering. These arent my ideas, just a summary of other folks. just tring to put them in a simple format. It will go: 1. Most Common Suggestion (Options for that same suggestion)

All of the below assume the current aggregation of changes listed by CCP Tallest in the devblog and this thread will go live (speed, tracking, damage, etc). I am also assuming that there will remain only two 'ship level' bonuses per ship (as opposed to a tweak to a base stat). I think it is agreed that ships should be preferred to change over mods, because everyon can use mods and that can introduce additional balance issues.

So, with that said, here is an attempt at summarizing most of the suggestions.

1. A. Gallente need to be fastest, B. OR fastest in a sprint, but not top speed (fastest accellaration)
2. A. MOAR DAMAGE or B. Make them more like lazors/projectiles
3. A. Give all gal boats a Damp bonus, or B. Unnerf Damp modules at least some, in general.
4. Armor tanking: A. Remove/reduce speed penalties for some armor mods, (rigs and plates mostly) B. Change various Plate stats to give meaningful choices, C. Change underused modules to be more useful to Gallente (e.g. Regenarative Platin and Reinforced Bulkheads)
5. Structure issues: Take advantage of the larger Gallente Structures by increasing them further or giving them a small (20%ish?) base resist. DCU would be more beneficial to Gallente and wouldnt make Amarr OP. This would give more structure buffer to allow for active tanking and/or RRmore time to heal up armor, but would not require a separate 'remote structure repair' component in fleets.
6. Overheat endurance bonus to base stat of Gallente Ships. (Moonaura suggested this. Awesome idea). There is already an existing base stat for this apparantly called 'heatCapacity' https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32225&find=unread (This is a newish idea by someone, but i love it - it is a base stat change, but indirectly would help damage, speed, and tanking by allowing us to overload those mods for longer: even 20-30% would be beneficial. It would be a defining racial trait of 'blaze of glory' and endurance combat. It shouldnt be unbalancing: It would just allow us to be overheated and REALLY AWESOME for a little bit longer than everone else, until we pop or our mods burn out, or both. In short, its a short-lived, situational advantage. Not something that is in effect 24/7 like projectiles, lasors, or being a Goon. And would not require changes to any 'ship level' bonuses already in place).
7. Various forms of tackle projection. A. Web amount or range bonus, B. scram range bonus C. extra 'utility' drone storage space on gal boats for WORKING and/or FASTER web or scram drones.

So, those are most of the variations of ideas. Discuss.

If it were me, and If i wanted to keep it simple, without wonking up the already well established ship level bonuses and mods taht everyone can use and perhaps causing other balance issues, I would start slowly. I would implement items #5 and # 6, and see how they go. They are simple, gallente specific changes that can be more easily evaluated and they dont mess with the already existing ship level bonuses. Those two base stat changes would also indirectly influence items #1B, 2A, 4A, 4C, and 7, without having to make lots of other changes. in other words, just doing #5 and 6 kills many birds with two stones, for the least amount of work.


I am certain people will disagree. Discuss.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#529 - 2011-11-11 06:21:41 UTC
Instead of changing armor plates / rigs, would it be possible to give gallente ships a role bonus that negates the penalties? EG 100% reduction in mass modifier (or whatever) for armor plates, 100% reduction in armor rig penalty? I don't know that this alone would fix Gallente (I think the better solution is to make them the second fastest ships-- somewhere between minmatar and *other*, and make them the most agile) but it might be a start.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2011-11-11 06:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazz Styles
Voith wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
[quote=Jazz Styles]
Don't mess with armour plates and agility/mass penalties when the problem lies with the weapons.

Armor plates and agility and mass penalties are new to the game compare to the stats that the weapons have and were never balanced with them in mind. HENCE it might being a good idea to do so.


Why not just make some gallente ships shield tankers?

If Armor + Blasters doesn't work I would think trying Shield + Blasters should be tried before you fundamentally alter game mechanics.

There's a certain symmetry at the moment with Amarr and Gallente being primarily armour, and Minmatar and Caldari being shield focused (obviously matari ships are much more flexible). I think CCP are reluctant to change this dynamic, but its probably worth talking about at least.

Here's the thing tho: If we're talking big fleet battles? In order to make blasters useful at point-blank range, the ships are going to have to be ridiculously fast, since all three other races can engage at range with ease, and even then it throws fleet formations completely out the window.

I just don't see why blasters have to be so short on range when it clearly isn't working. I suspect that nothing short of a substantial range increase on blasters is going to make Gallente attractive outside of empire space.

Here's an idea, just double the optimal range across the board for blasters, maybe add a 25% falloff increase, lower damage and tracking by 10%-15% and see how it goes. It's a test server; let's test it out.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#531 - 2011-11-11 07:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What about drones? Specifically Ewar drones and combat utility drones? Buff the hell out of their ewar strength. Buff their speed and hit points. Add a light and medium webber drone. Add drones with warp disruptor points but not scramblers.

Revisit Gallente ships and make sure their drone bays are sufficient to take advantage of this. There's more then one way to skin a cat.



As much as I love this ideal and it should be implemented. That boost omost every ship in the game. There are very few ships in this game with out a drone bay and most of them make up for this in other ways too.


Edit: But on the other hand I love the ideal of light/med drones with warp disruptor points as it means that anyone with in drone range can be just as comited to a fight as the blaster pilot is and for some strange reason that puts a smile on my face. Big smile

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#532 - 2011-11-11 07:12:23 UTC
Many have said it already, but I'll echo it again, reduce the granularity in hybrid range ammo, more like projectiles (which they were modelled after if you believe the item text).
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Delphineas Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#533 - 2011-11-11 08:28:41 UTC
What if hybrids got a RF increase per shot? Lorewise, the rails retain more charge the more they are fired in a certain timeframe?

This could cap out at 50%, and lose half on reload?
Delphineas Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#534 - 2011-11-11 08:43:51 UTC
One last thought I had before bed is another passive. What about a skill/ ship bonus where hybrid cap usage is recycled into shield boosting? Or per shot, since cap usage would be counter productive for some skill. Obviously this would benefit caldari more, but maybe they get a speed boost out of it?

Caldari: Recycle energy per shot into shields. Like 1% or thereabout, maybe scale on turret size.
Gallenete: Recycle hybrid shot energy into engines for a short seed boost.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#535 - 2011-11-11 11:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bomberlocks

  • Add a mod that gives , in t1 form from 5 to 10% increase on structure resist and in T2 form 12% increase in structure resists. Make it so that it only works with a DCU fitted. While anyone can fit one, it boosts Gallente more than anyone else.
  • Improve remote hull repper performance so that it becomes comparable to armour reppers.
  • Improve local hull reppers
  • give the Brutix/astarte an optimal range bonus
  • give the oneiros a remote hull repper bonus
Sir Fury
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#536 - 2011-11-11 13:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Fury
Emily Poast wrote:

1. A. Gallente need to be fastest, B. OR fastest in a sprint, but not top speed (fastest accellaration)


Your first point is not entirely accurate, rather incomplete hence open to misinterpretation. More like 3 options here:
1. A. Make Gallente hulls have the fastest Base speeds (resulting they are the fastest race with & without propulsion modules)
1. B. Make Gallente hulls have the best Agility (hence accelerate, turn, align fastest)
1. C. Give Gallente hulls a MWD/AB speed bonus so that as long as these modules are running, Gallente ships are faster than comparable Minmatar ships. If agility/mass are not touched, Gallente will accelerate slower than Minmatar, but be faster at top propulsion boosted speeds)

I personally favour 1. C here.

Regarding armour modules, since hardeners don't have speed penalties, maybe the speed penalty of Resistance rigs could be removed. Maybe replaced with agility, or shield amount penalties. This will benefit in 2 ways. For those willing to forgo pure buffer tanks, can opt for resistance tanks which also work better with the Gallente Armour Rep bonus. this bonus could also do with a bit of a boost.

& ofc, buff blaster damage further.
carmelos53
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#537 - 2011-11-11 13:14:17 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Greetings

Please post your feedback about hybrid turret balancing in this thread.

Thanks.
Your Tallest.

update (08/11/11): based on player feedback, the following changes will be made to hybrid balancing (and T2 ammo balancing).

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)
* Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.



No complaints to those changes ccp.

Idealy I'd recommend changes to blaster boats themselves in this case for gallente and caldari but many people in this thread seem to want to buff the mods or drones which will only back fire with other race balancing issues.

My simple changes to the gallente SHIPS(I have 0 exp with caldari so I won't go there):
Proteus & brutix need some more power grid love.
Mrym needs to have a reason not to use projectiles a honestly I'm clueless as to how to make this happen.

Blaster boat specific ships need to stay armor tanked. Gallente was never meant to be shield tanked and frankly some of the shield fits gallente boats out there have to many advantages over their armor fight twins. Example: the vindi.

Maybe lower the shield hit point and increase either hull up or armor hp.

This brings me^ to my last point. Blasters need a role in larger fleet battles. To accomplish this they need survivability . Even if they have this changes are they still won't be so common in null sec sub cap battles. Still it doesn't hurt to try. ONE of the following needs to be done:

A) major speed or acceleration buff (only if you follow the ARMOR buff above with a shield nerd otherwise I can see this getting to overpowered).
--->or<----
b) blasters would still need MORE damage. 5% doesn't justify the range issues surrounding the platform.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#538 - 2011-11-11 13:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Here are the stats I posted the other day and some ship examples with guns and damage mods...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/pinky_81/SisiStatsNovember.jpg

There are a few guns sticking out with weird stats, but the guns look pretty fine if you at the same time look into drone bays, amount of available lowslots and secondary bonuses.

Still waiting for:

  • Additional speed/acceleration balance between Gallente/minmatar
  • Hybrid ammunition clean-up
  • Fall-off nerf on Tracking enhancers / Tracking computers
  • Armor rig penalty replacement (with sensor strength?)
  • Caldari optimal bonus -> damage bonus *

* To give Gallente an advantage over the caldari dps wise:
  • Suggestion 1 : Hyperion damage bonus -> ROF bonus (Hype get 6,4% more dps)
  • Suggestion 2 : Remove 1 gun on Rokh (Rokh gets 9,375% more dps total - 12,5% less than Hype)

Also while doing those bonus plz change bonus for Apoc and Prophecy. They will benefit a lot from losing their optimal bonus and their laser bonus.

Also when all above is done it's time to tweak single ships 1 at a time I think :-)
Dark Voynix
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2011-11-11 13:26:14 UTC
from all ideas to fix blasters i continue to like the one i suggested. Blaster ships simply lack the ability to keep close enough the target to make blaster effective. They just go in "deep falloff" to close to be a batch against projectiles, so the increased DPS is negleted too easilly. The idea i had to give hybrids the ability to effect enemy speed will simply make blaster ships that if they succed to come close they can really keep the opponent close and with low transversal making him able to use the DPS difference.

I understand that we must avoid that any ship to fit 1 blaster just to "web". For this reason make webbing effect mass sized and stack for any blaster weapon. So you need to have a full rack to make them realy effective and you need a proper size weapon to noy make just small guns effective on BS sized ships.

There are some difficulties to design and implement it pro pertly, but we will finally see a reson to use this weapons. they would not be just unusable or a close and we will have something unique. Even different ammo can have different effect giving a reason to use something else that antimaters ( t1 speaking).
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2011-11-11 14:00:41 UTC
It all comes down to getting the ship into the engagement zone of its weapons. In this instance, Gallente blaster boats either need to:

a) Be the fastest and most agile, because their weapons have the shortest range, or
b) Have the engagement range of blasters extended so they don't need that speed.