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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Lixia Saran
Perkone
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-07-29 14:33:10 UTC
Overall the changes look nice albeit some concerns that I have over the two HACs that I know best:

Sacrilege: Im a bit concerned about the cap change killing the active tank setup, but I'd have to run the fit with the new numbers. Bottom line, I hope it doesnt lose too much active tank

Vagabond: Oh boy... I feel we haven't really moved enough on this one. Even tho it'll be able to run its mwd a bit longer, the new bonus kinda pigeonhole it into an XLASB setup and still, imho, isn't worth the price over flying an SFI or Cynabal. I would have loved to see another mid slot to allow for a fit with 2x LSEs + SSB/MSB or LSE + MSB + SBA or LSE + Hardener + Booster, to give us the option to adapt the tank a little bit.

Furthermore, the Vaga could really use a fitting upgrade to allow it to sport 425mms.

And as a closing comment: it should be manufactured by core complexion (including the paintjob :P).
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#122 - 2013-07-29 14:35:35 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Vaga definitely needs more shield HP to XLASB effectively (Rise, if you expect us to LASB, I will lose the last of my respect for you, LASBs suck) otherwise the Vaga will get alpha'd since its shield boost is the same as its shield HP, meaning the Vaga pilot has to wait until he has NO SHIELDS to boost, or lose tank.


I first assumed that same since you boost 1780 out of 2180 per asb cyle, but thats still1.4k ehp (doesnt sound like a lot but thats about as much as a standard (nonarty) medium sized gun hits you for per volley) and you can bleed armour/structure for quite a bit, you just cant wait and you need to boost immeditaly once you get below 14%.


Yes because a Vaga will definitely be flying against a single ship Roll
14%, thats a ridiculously small margin of error, and when fighting a gang of 5-10 players that 14% evaporates in less than a second. I know that from experience, so don't try to make up some nonsense.

The Vaga will get alpha'd or lose tank because it boosts too early. Give it more HP, another mid, and scrap the ASB bonus.


I agree on the changes you want (it needs more fitting to and a second range bonus), i disagree on your statement, if every second you are recieving more then 1.4k damage in ine second you are looking at such a incredible amount of dps that you can permarun the asb anyways. Yes there is a margin of error and yes you could lose some ehp due to overrepping but even if you lose 20%, thats still a cruiser with more then 80k ehp.

It will outbrawl most bcs and pretty much all cruisers.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#123 - 2013-07-29 14:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
CCP Rise what speaks against giving all the HACs one more slot?

munin ,vaga and eagle all need another gun their top end dps is just not comparable to tech 1 battlecruisers
neither is the tank of both gallente hulls they desperately need another low and a buff to their terribly low base armor hp
the sacrilege does quite low dps with only space for 1bcu if it wants a decent tank another low would fix that
the sacrilege also does depend on its capacitor recharge you need to roll the whole of its bonus into the hull if you want to change it like that

the all around capacitor recharge increase is a nice addition giving hacs a lot more time with their MWDs on

here is what it would look like

Sacrilege: +1low +170pg
allows it to be fitted as a heavy tackle with cap booster and dual bcu

Zealot: +1mid +10cpu
enables it to have greater all around utility and damage projection

Cerberus: +1low +165pg +80cpu
allows it to fit greater tank by use of RCU or greater speed by use of a nano or OI

Eagle: +1 high +1gun +225pg -400shield
keeps it competitive with battle cruisers in the sniping role while not overtaking them in dps

Deimos: +1low +285pg +30cpu +450
this gives it a choice of increasing its tank or dps

ishtar: +1low +175pg +80cpu +400armor 7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking
having only 5 lows split between tank and dps makes it fall short in both departments 6 lows allows it to shine in both
it also has the base armor hp of a thorax that just seems off to me

Vaga: +1gun +1low +145pg +150shield +20cpu -shield boost bonus +10%to med proj falloff per level
with the tracking enhancer nerf the vagas dps at range is pitiful a shield boost bonus is not gonna help it if it can't break the shield recharge on an armor ship

Muninn: +1med +1gun +215pg +120shield
the muninn also suffers from poor dps and the fact that 3 slots are not enough for a shield tank

pls Rise plug this into the fitting tool of your choice an play with it a bit you will see it is perfect

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#124 - 2013-07-29 14:39:16 UTC
Capqu wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The sac recharge rate is actually wrong in the OP, will fix it. Forgot to adjust it after we removed the bonus.

The Cerberus kinetic bonus is not a relic in the same way that the Sacrilege recharge bonus or the Ishtar drone bay bonus were. We talked a lot about the role of damage specific bonuses with the CSM, as they raised the same concerns. Its obvious that the bonus is a bit of a handicap from the perspective of the Cerberus pilot, but we like the gameplay it adds and so we would only want to remove it if the Cerb was really needing more power, which isn't the case.

Knowing what kind of damage your opponent is likely to do is just as interesting as knowing which kind of damage your opponent is likely to be weak to. It lets creates interesting decisions for both the Cerb pilot and the Cerb's opponents and we like that.


preach it

the cerb would be too strong if it didnt have SOME kind of weakness, and kinetic damage is a small price to pay for 350 perfectly applied dps @ 105k while cruisin' at 2kms

It already is too strong with these proposed stats.

It is too agile. It has drones it does not need because it can reach out and blap frigs already with it's missiles. RLMLs would never let them get close, and precision heavys won't have range limitations with the double range bonus.

Conversely, the Sac is a cow. And if it is to have any tank it will need a plate (more cow). Also, 5 lows but a utility high? Damage will be anemic to that of the Cerb, and the Cerb will run circles around it. The 50/50 drone bay on the Sac is sort of stupid. If you put a full flight of mediums in, no frig defense. If you put two flights of lights then where is the supposed damage tradeoff with the Cerb's extra launcher. Did I mention the Sac will be a total cow compared to the Cerb?

If you are going to put a few drones on a Caldari ship it should be the Eagle. Give it 3 or 4 light drones.

The Zealot needs 3 or 4 light drones as well. If Amarr is going to be the new second drone race then this ship deserves some drones. And no Caldari HAC should have more droneage.

Munnin is still burdened by 3 mids. Why? It appears to me to be the new ass of HACs.

The Diemos and Ishtar. Well at least you gave the Ishtar some much needed CPU. However, why is that tracking and velocity bonus only on Heavys? You don't seemed concerned about frig obsolescence with the RLML or Precision HML Cerb? So why are drones not invited to the party?

Vaga meh, Diemos meh.

In sum a better iteration than the first rollout. The sensor strength bonus is a great idea. These should be souped up Cruisers able to fight with the BSs. But some unevenness within the class will emerge. Sniper or perma-mwd HAM Cerb fleets in 3 . . 2 . . Was nothing learned from the Drake/Tengu years? Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Comto Aldent
Safe break
#125 - 2013-07-29 14:39:57 UTC
Looks like i'm going right into HAC training for the Ishtar, get use out of training it now.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#126 - 2013-07-29 14:40:02 UTC
GeneralNukeEm wrote:
Quote:
We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.

How is 7.5% tracking per level for medium hybrid turrets not a compelling replacement for MWD cap use?


CCP beeing bad and overbuffing rails, current proposed deimos is a talos with way better tracking, better range, more ehp and speed and 80% of the dps, add another 7.5% tarcking and you will have a ship that has the tracking of a zealot with scorch and the dps of a oracle (it already is a better oracle).
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#127 - 2013-07-29 14:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Vaga definitely needs more shield HP to XLASB effectively (Rise, if you expect us to LASB, I will lose the last of my respect for you, LASBs suck) otherwise the Vaga will get alpha'd since its shield boost is the same as its shield HP, meaning the Vaga pilot has to wait until he has NO SHIELDS to boost, or lose tank.


I first assumed that same since you boost 1780 out of 2180 per asb cyle, but thats still1.4k ehp (doesnt sound like a lot but thats about as much as a standard (nonarty) medium sized gun hits you for per volley) and you can bleed armour/structure for quite a bit, you just cant wait and you need to boost immeditaly once you get below 14%.


Yes because a Vaga will definitely be flying against a single ship Roll
14%, thats a ridiculously small margin of error, and when fighting a gang of 5-10 players that 14% evaporates in less than a second. I know that from experience, so don't try to make up some nonsense.

The Vaga will get alpha'd or lose tank because it boosts too early. Give it more HP, another mid, and scrap the ASB bonus.


I agree on the changes you want (it needs more fitting to and a second range bonus), i disagree on your statement, if every second you are recieving more then 1.4k damage in ine second you are looking at such a incredible amount of dps that you can permarun the asb anyways. Yes there is a margin of error and yes you could lose some ehp due to overrepping but even if you lose 20%, thats still a cruiser with more then 80k ehp.

It will outbrawl most bcs and pretty much all cruisers.


And when did the Vaga become a brawler! Come on CCP, there are better bonuses than this shield boost bonus. You KNOW it will only be applied to XLASBs, which are ridiculously hard to fit and just aren't that good on the current Vaga hull.

There have been suggestions on how to fix the Vaga from players, its time to listen to the people who actually fly them and make it decent. Time to listen to people who actually fly ALL the HACs and either decrease the build cost or make them better, because they simply aren't worth 130m. People may say otherwise now but when these changes go live there will be the same Cynabal blobs, same T3 blobs, and same battleship blobs that have and will continue to rule EVE. Except the Ishtar because wow, those bonuses? Really? As if the Domi wasn't blapping everything already fast enough.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#128 - 2013-07-29 14:41:01 UTC
Changes look good,

Looking forward to them being rolled onto SISI for testing.

Will there be another balance wave/pass once you guys have SISI feedback ?

Edit: Or buckingham , whatever its called these days....

....
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-07-29 14:41:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
Much better, but there's a typo in the OP- Ishtar has one slot less than the others.



Trolling.....?? its a drone boat, they always have 1 less for having drone utility.

As for the Vaga OP people, I hope your Tornado Alphaed into oblivion, gods know it would only take one and maybe a friend.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-07-29 14:41:22 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Was nothing learned from the Drake/Tengu years? Straight


I'm pretty sure quite a lot of people learned how to firewall.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#131 - 2013-07-29 14:42:41 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Vaga definitely needs more shield HP to XLASB effectively (Rise, if you expect us to LASB, I will lose the last of my respect for you, LASBs suck) otherwise the Vaga will get alpha'd since its shield boost is the same as its shield HP, meaning the Vaga pilot has to wait until he has NO SHIELDS to boost, or lose tank.


I first assumed that same since you boost 1780 out of 2180 per asb cyle, but thats still1.4k ehp (doesnt sound like a lot but thats about as much as a standard (nonarty) medium sized gun hits you for per volley) and you can bleed armour/structure for quite a bit, you just cant wait and you need to boost immeditaly once you get below 14%.


Yes because a Vaga will definitely be flying against a single ship Roll
14%, thats a ridiculously small margin of error, and when fighting a gang of 5-10 players that 14% evaporates in less than a second. I know that from experience, so don't try to make up some nonsense.

The Vaga will get alpha'd or lose tank because it boosts too early. Give it more HP, another mid, and scrap the ASB bonus.


I agree on the changes you want (it needs more fitting to and a second range bonus), i disagree on your statement, if every second you are recieving more then 1.4k damage in ine second you are looking at such a incredible amount of dps that you can permarun the asb anyways. Yes there is a margin of error and yes you could lose some ehp due to overrepping but even if you lose 20%, thats still a cruiser with more then 80k ehp.

It will outbrawl most bcs and pretty much all cruisers.


And when did the Vaga become a brawler! Come on CCP, there are better bonuses than this shield boost bonus. You KNOW it will only be applied to XLASBs, which are ridiculously hard to fit and just aren't that good on the current Vaga hull.

There have been suggestions on how to fix the Vaga from players, its time to listen to the people who actually fly them and make it decent. Time to listen to people who actually fly ALL the HACs and either decrease the build cost or make them better, because they simply aren't worth 130m. People may say otherwise now but when these changes go live there will be the same Cynabal blobs, same T3 blobs, and same battleship blobs that have and will continue to rule EVE. Except the Ishtar because wow, those bonuses? Really? As if the Domi wasn't blapping everything already fast enough.


Since they proposed these changes.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#132 - 2013-07-29 14:42:57 UTC
First, overall, generally good. Love that you guys improved the sensor strengths for some built-in "dishonor drone" resilience.

But, I still have to disagree with the bonuses on the Ishtar. As others have pointed out, and rightly so, we again see a case--intentional in this case--that a Gallente ship has yet another wasted bonus. If I'm using Sentries I get 3x bonuses, and if I'm using heavy drones, I get 3 bonuses. But never will I get 4x bonus' worth unless I'm flying--lol--a mixed heavy/sentry wing, which unless I'm just absolutely terrible at Eve, would never do. Great for incorporating the drone bay and giving it a CPU buff! But, come on, Rise, you can't be serious that I'd use one bonus at a time. The comparison to giving other ships bonuses to long-range or short-range weapons (broken up) is valid. You guys have to recognize this.

Further, if your intent was to buff Ishtar's Heavy uses, then you effectively obsoleted the Navy Vexor, since it's bonus is only 5% to drone speed. Why would I take a Navy Vexor with only 25% drone velocity and tracking when I can take an Ishtar with 37.5% heavy speed and tracking, have a larger drone bay, MWD reduction bonus, etc.?? By all accounts--T2 resists, stronger sensor strength, etc., the Ishtar is going to be better in every case.

Also curious about the 7.5% optimal/tracking vs the Domi's 10%. You do realize that the overpowered nature of the Domi's bonuses were in a limited sphere-engagement AT XI environment? In "real" Eve, fights aren't bound to one location like they are in the tournament, so I think it's a bit of a miss to reduce the bonus simply because of any overlap with an obviously overpowered ship in a limited environment with its own set of rules.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Novah Soul
#133 - 2013-07-29 14:44:48 UTC
Things are looking quite a bit better now. I'm especially happy about the Cerb and Ishtar changes. Doing good work here, Rise. ;)

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#134 - 2013-07-29 14:45:46 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Roime wrote:
Much better, but there's a typo in the OP- Ishtar has one slot less than the others.



Trolling.....?? its a drone boat, they always have 1 less for having drone utility.

As for the Vaga OP people, I hope your Tornado Alphaed into oblivion, gods know it would only take one and maybe a friend.

This is the biggest line of **** in the game. Please explain how a drone ship somehow has more "utility" when it has to forego its damage to get this utility?? It would seem like other ships with turret or launcher bonused damage AND a drone bay have infinitely more utility out if their drone bays, given the proliferation of drone bays on nearly every ship. For example, I can launch 5x EC-300s on a Drake AND still apply bonused damage simultaneously! Yet, on an Ishtar, if I launch utility drones, I can't do **** for damage. Explain, again, how this makes sense??

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#135 - 2013-07-29 14:46:53 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Roime wrote:
Much better, but there's a typo in the OP- Ishtar has one slot less than the others.



Trolling.....?? its a drone boat, they always have 1 less for having drone utility.

As for the Vaga OP people, I hope your Tornado Alphaed into oblivion, gods know it would only take one and maybe a friend.



Drone utility? What's that? Do you mean giving up all your dps to get the same utility as all other ships?

.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#136 - 2013-07-29 14:47:02 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:

having only 5 lows split between tank and dps makes it fall short in both departments 6 lows allows it to shine in both

That makes literally no sense at all.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#137 - 2013-07-29 14:49:14 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

Since they proposed these changes.


Nobody proposed an ASB vaga... I was thinking more fitting, more tank, but nope, we got sensor strength. Its a good thing, but its not what HACs need to be revenant again.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#138 - 2013-07-29 14:49:22 UTC
Deimos still looks ridiculous with the MWD cap bonus. Again, like a broken record, we're looking at a Gallente ship with a WASTED bonus if I decide to fit an AB (the role bonus not so much, because every ship would lose out on it with AB). Honestly, the Sac's old cap recharge bonus would be much better here if you're going to use some wonky bonus. Optimally, it'd be a useful bonus, like 5% armor hp per level, but if that's going to be too op (since we all know the Deimos was VASTLY OVERPOWERED on TQ), then give it a bonus that will be useful for all fits.

Also, the Eagle will probably still struggle to find uses, given that it's damage will still fall below the curve in most cases. Dual optimal bonuses are nice--and very Caldari--but you gotta realize that sacrificing damage for them isn't an option if you want the ship to be utilized. Give it 10% damage/lvl if that's the case. Or even 7.5%. Otherwise, good pass overall.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#139 - 2013-07-29 14:52:29 UTC
Roime wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Roime wrote:
Much better, but there's a typo in the OP- Ishtar has one slot less than the others.



Trolling.....?? its a drone boat, they always have 1 less for having drone utility.

As for the Vaga OP people, I hope your Tornado Alphaed into oblivion, gods know it would only take one and maybe a friend.



Drone utility? What's that? Do you mean giving up all your dps to get the same utility as all other ships?


Because 500 dps without using a single pg or cpu are so not worth giving up a slot for....

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Cardavet
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-07-29 14:52:40 UTC
Ive got rise figured out now, He posts round 1 changes that he knows are bad and will cause outrage to get people posting, since normally we cant be bothered to leave the cesspit of GD forum.

he reads all the flames, saves all the good ideas, makes the round 2 changes, and comes out looking like a genius