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Star Citizen v EVE

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Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#81 - 2013-07-15 18:47:28 UTC
Dirk Decibel wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
If Star Citizen delivers, the people who move over are those most affected by avatar gameplay. Personally I've always wanted to be able to control my own ship, swoop around my enemies the way I want to instead of clicking an orbit/approach/keep at range button etc. So if SC pulls it off, I'll probably put EVE on the shelf.

It doesn't mean EVE is bad. Just that EVE is ship-perspective and SC is person-perspective. It's just flavor.

That sounds great, until you realize you're an old, lazy fat guy with **** poor coordination and reflexes to match...

Still going to give it a try though.


I don't consider myself that great but I did get to try out the original Jumpgate Evolution (long after JG:E was in beta and the server was virtually abandoned). The newtonian physics were awesome and I was deeply disappointed when Netdevil crashed and burned before delivering their next gen product. I was waiting for the chance ot go full burn, yank hard left and just strafe fire in a line at whatever, it doesn't even matter. Lol

Unfortunately SC doesn't look like it will be quite like that, as the fly-by-wire guidance systems will automatically account for spacial drift

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#82 - 2013-07-15 18:53:22 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Will Eve die if fewer players are playing, perhaps not, but then CCP would have less money to re-invest, those who are left get angrier and angrier because less updates are happening and leave and you then have a snowball effect.

Incarna is a great example of what can happen if enough players leave / cancel there subs.. i.e a significant number of employees are laid off..

As for those who did cancel their subs, its not like we are talking 10,000's of players here, it was only a few thousand.

I think the Incarna fallout scared the crap out of CCP, they suddenly had to face the reality that their fanatical fan base wouldn't put up with unfinished jesus features when there was an immense amount of work needed on the existing features.

It's sad that they had to lay off people as a result of it, but I think that they're stronger because of it and that they've learnt from it. They're no longer trying to run when they should be walking, they're constantly implementing small fixes for long broken mechanics although things like POS's and the random drone behaviour still need fixing, they've balanced a lot of the ships so that they're actually used rather than being lolworthy wasted assets. The UI, while still antiquated, is getting better, the NPE is miles ahead of what it used to be, and NPCs are more of a challenge than they used to be.

I think once they've actually made the existing code work as it should do, and reworked it so that they're actually able to reiterate on it without breaking other stuff then we may see them do something that's innovative and ground breaking again, but they'll make sure it works properly before releasing it.

Walking in stations is currently on hold, I know that some hate the idea, and that others love it. Personally I'm looking forward to the day when I can walk around and possibly stab another player in the face in a bar over an exotic dancer or game of chance, but I don't think we'll see the likes of WiS in a meaningful form until after World of Darkness is released. I think a lot of the things they learn through developing WoD will find it's way into it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#83 - 2013-07-15 18:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Cypherdog wrote:
I wonder how is EVE preparing to face the might of Chris Roberts' new MMO. I am a devoted "casual" EVE player and so far I managed to convince 1 player -my cousin- to join me in EVE, but lately we are having conversations about Star Citizen, and I am afraid I am going to loose my only wingman in space.
EVE has a decade of Lore and stories that players have written. EVE can hold massive battles in one single server. EVE is brutal, unforgiving. EVE is EVE.
But because most of us are familiar with Robert's Space Industries and games (freelancer, Wing Commander) , I wonder what is CCP's plan to counteract the loss of subscriptions to an MMO that promises (and surely deliver) a more personal and immersive space flying experience? The universe size will not be as big at launch, but in time, just like CCP did when player's are handed the tools to shape the universe, it will expand massively, and probably match most of he expectations of many scy-fi players.
I thought Incarna was a cool step to attract skeptical players and make the experience more personal. Why didn't The Mittani and henchmen expressed their negative opinions at the previous fanfest , when the Incarna facts were unveiled, instead of burning Jita and leave a fair chuck of designers and Devs unemployed. I could not wait for Incarna to be online. Alas, tradition proved more resilient than change. And Incarna will never come back....unless.... Star Citizen proves that it can be done.
Now I understand the prejudice against "spacebarbie" gameplay. But just like with everything in EVE, if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. (I am against the gtfo stance of most)
I still think that Dust 514is destined to fail. It won't do any favours to EVE. There's a game called Titan Fall, that is so reminiscent of Dust. And better imo.
I am a casual player, I see EVE from outside the box. My opinions are just the way I feel at the moment, and at the moment I see EVE going for another decade but significantly less strong after SC is launched.
Care to share your thoughts?


Never heard of Chris Roberts or his new game Star-something (sounds gay).

The Mittani was way too busy apologizing for the drunken mess he created last years' fanfest to be busy with actual EVE-related stuff.

-Removed some offensive content. Please keep it civil. Thank you. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Prince Kobol
#84 - 2013-07-15 19:04:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Will Eve die if fewer players are playing, perhaps not, but then CCP would have less money to re-invest, those who are left get angrier and angrier because less updates are happening and leave and you then have a snowball effect.

Incarna is a great example of what can happen if enough players leave / cancel there subs.. i.e a significant number of employees are laid off..

As for those who did cancel their subs, its not like we are talking 10,000's of players here, it was only a few thousand.

I think the Incarna fallout scared the crap out of CCP, they suddenly had to face the reality that their fanatical fan base wouldn't put up with unfinished jesus features when there was an immense amount of work needed on the existing features.

It's sad that they had to lay off people as a result of it, but I think that they're stronger because of it and that they've learnt from it. They're no longer trying to run when they should be walking, they're constantly implementing small fixes for long broken mechanics although things like POS's and the random drone behaviour still need fixing, they've balanced a lot of the ships so that they're actually used rather than being lolworthy wasted assets. The UI, while still antiquated, is getting better, the NPE is miles ahead of what it used to be, and NPCs are more of a challenge than they used to be.

I think once they've actually made the existing code work as it should do, and reworked it so that they're actually able to reiterate on it without breaking other stuff then we may see them do something that's innovative and ground breaking again, but they'll make sure it works properly before releasing it.

Walking in stations is currently on hold, I know that some hate the idea, and that others love it. Personally I'm looking forward to the day when I can walk around and possibly stab another player in the face in a bar over an exotic dancer or game of chance, but I don't think we'll see the likes of WiS in a meaningful form until after World of Darkness is released. I think a lot of the things they learn through developing WoD will find it's way into it.


I agree with everything you are saying, however there is only so long people are going to except bug fixes, ship rebalancing and small changes here and there.

At some point CCP are going to have be brave again and release something completely new that blows people away and that something can't be 2 years away.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-07-15 19:07:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tha'ts not at all true. STO had a shaky start like a lot of mmos. It's still going and stronger than Ever. And why do you have "the only space sim MMO" in quotes. other space sim mmos exist, I just mentioned one lol.


SWTOR was targeting WoW, not EvE (who targets a 500k game, but an upstart like SC, when the majors pump 100 million into production?).

EvE now has direct competition. SC isn't going after the WoW market (the publishers watched that failure and now going for the smaller markets to get a toe hold somewhere). It's going after the "only space sim MMO" with a player base worth bleeding from (as that's how it works for competitors).

Blizzard to fight it's competition, quickly incorporates the competitors features in their game. So players can sample the new designs, without leaving WoW. That's how they beat RIFT and SWTOR back-to-back.

CCP isn't doing that. Either because they're, like Blizzard was set in one game design philosophy, or simply they don't have the cash to fight SC head on.

And what could they fight them with? WASD.

Something that simple.

Don't need to reinvent the wheel to stop the bleed, you just need to tweak what you already have.

Jenn aSide wrote:
How do you account for the past space sim MMOs and other similar games (like Darkfall and Perpetuum Online etc etc) that were supposed to kill EVE and didn't. EVe growth only ever slacked off when CCP screwed up, that deminstrates that EVE online is pretty historically resistant to outside influence.


I can't account for them, as I wasn't following the space sim market. RIFT and SWTOR vs WoW my plate was full, and was playing BF3 for months, and following the rivalries between CoD and BF3.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Pointing out the flaws in your logic is like a full time job. I'm one of those people who would rather be Commander Adama or some other captain than Buck Rogers. Yet I don't make the mistake that people are like me. YOU may like being buck rogers more, but historically, people like EVE for lots of reasons. There is no palpable , provable reason why CCP needs to do anything drastically different other than finish World of Darkness for an addition revenue stream.


I like being her, as I feel like I'm doing her job, actually. Lol

Jenn aSide wrote:
See you do it all the time. you convince yourself of something you have no proof of (ie that EVE is about "whales"), then lean on an unsupported idea to convince yourself of even more unsupported Ideas.

I know you can't make an illogical person embrace logic, but i still suggest you look for actually empircal data THEN form opinions about things. Becase as it is now, you're just always terminally wrong and that doesn't hurt anyone but you.


Jenn, I'm telling you that I've been around so many game communities in almost 20 years now. Seen it. Heard it. I'm not interested in that drama. The same drama you're spewing. I'm interested in a game being good, polished and attractive to more players. It's that simple. Build it they will come.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#86 - 2013-07-15 19:15:34 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tha'ts not at all true. STO had a shaky start like a lot of mmos. It's still going and stronger than Ever. And why do you have "the only space sim MMO" in quotes. other space sim mmos exist, I just mentioned one lol.


SWTOR was targeting WoW, not EvE (who targets a 500k game, but an upstart like SC, when the majors pump 100 million into production?).

EvE now has direct competition. SC isn't going after the WoW market (the publishers watched that failure and now going for the smaller markets to get a toe hold somewhere). It's going after the "only space sim MMO" with a player base worth bleeding from (as that's how it works for competitors).

Blizzard to fight it's competition, quickly incorporates the competitors features in their game. So players can sample the new designs, without leaving WoW. That's how they beat RIFT and SWTOR back-to-back.

CCP isn't doing that. Either because they're, like Blizzard was set in one game design philosophy, or simply they don't have the cash to fight SC head on.

And what could they fight them with? WASD.

Something that simple.

Don't need to reinvent the wheel to stop the bleed, you just need to tweak what you already have.

Jenn aSide wrote:
How do you account for the past space sim MMOs and other similar games (like Darkfall and Perpetuum Online etc etc) that were supposed to kill EVE and didn't. EVe growth only ever slacked off when CCP screwed up, that deminstrates that EVE online is pretty historically resistant to outside influence.


I can't account for them, as I wasn't following the space sim market. RIFT and SWTOR vs WoW my plate was full, and was playing BF3 for months, and following the rivalries between CoD and BF3.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Pointing out the flaws in your logic is like a full time job. I'm one of those people who would rather be Commander Adama or some other captain than Buck Rogers. Yet I don't make the mistake that people are like me. YOU may like being buck rogers more, but historically, people like EVE for lots of reasons. There is no palpable , provable reason why CCP needs to do anything drastically different other than finish World of Darkness for an addition revenue stream.


I like being her, as I feel like I'm doing her job, actually. Lol

Jenn aSide wrote:
See you do it all the time. you convince yourself of something you have no proof of (ie that EVE is about "whales"), then lean on an unsupported idea to convince yourself of even more unsupported Ideas.

I know you can't make an illogical person embrace logic, but i still suggest you look for actually empircal data THEN form opinions about things. Becase as it is now, you're just always terminally wrong and that doesn't hurt anyone but you.


Jenn, I'm telling you that I've been around so many game communities in almost 20 years now. Seen it. Heard it. I'm not interested in that drama. The same drama you're spewing. I'm interested in a game being good, polished and attractive to more players. It's that simple. Build it they will come.


Comparing a sandbox mmo-rpg game like EvE with a arcade multiplayer game like Star Citizen is like comparing Civilization with Quake.

The Tears Must Flow
Alundil
Rolled Out
#87 - 2013-07-15 19:24:46 UTC
Pookie McPook wrote:

Mac isn't for business as it's next to impossible to network them

Not to derail a topic on the E-O forums.....but I seriously lol'd at that. So silly and poorly informed (and I'm not a mac user either). Just lol.

Sigh....people....never stop regurgitating inane things you hear. Never.

I'm right behind you
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#88 - 2013-07-15 19:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tha'ts not at all true. STO had a shaky start like a lot of mmos. It's still going and stronger than Ever. And why do you have "the only space sim MMO" in quotes. other space sim mmos exist, I just mentioned one lol.


SWTOR was targeting WoW, not EvE (who targets a 500k game, but an upstart like SC, when the majors pump 100 million into production?).

EvE now has direct competition. SC isn't going after the WoW market (the publishers watched that failure and now going for the smaller markets to get a toe hold somewhere). It's going after the "only space sim MMO" with a player base worth bleeding from (as that's how it works for competitors).


That's the same tinfoil hat thinking people had when Jumpgate and Black Prophecy were supposed to come around, which they never really did lol.

And Who's talking about SWTOR? I'm talking about STO. So, you have no idea what i'm talking about, right?

Quote:


Blizzard to fight it's competition, quickly incorporates the competitors features in their game. So players can sample the new designs, without leaving WoW. That's how they beat RIFT and SWTOR back-to-back.

CCP isn't doing that. Either because they're, like Blizzard was set in one game design philosophy, or simply they don't have the cash to fight SC head on.

And what could they fight them with? WASD.

Something that simple.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

That's what I been saying, if you find EVE lacking, why play?

And EVE doesn't have to fight SC, the fact that it's a different game with a different focus will do that.

Let me ask you this, when SC doesn't kill or even affect EVE, will you be adult enough to come back here and admit that what you thought was wrong?

Quote:

I can't account for them, as I wasn't following the space sim market. RIFT and SWTOR vs WoW my plate was full, and was playing BF3 for months, and following the rivalries between CoD and BF3.


And yet you feel confident enough to comment about EVE without knowing it's history or the history of other games like it (that were supposed to kill EVE)? Don't you understand that this is a major flaw? You don't know enough about EVE or it's community to even form the opinions you have, let alone voice them.

That's why so many people speak up to tell you yo are wrong, and you then simply dismiss them as trolls or something. It seems you're no interested in the truth.

Quote:


Jenn, I'm telling you that I've been around so many game communities in almost 20 years now. Seen it. Heard it. I'm not interested in that drama. The same drama you're spewing. I'm interested in a game being good, polished and attractive to more players. It's that simple. Build it they will come.


A logical person knows that anecdotal evidence is not evidence. If the last 20 years hasn't been spent observing niche spaceship MMOs, you're experience is invalid.

You tend to think in grouping terms, because one game is an MMO, the same things apply to all.

It's not true. every game is different (except the WoW clones lol). Sandboxes and themeparks are wildly different. Individual companies are different and want/need different things (a good example is that silly 2 million subs number you posted, suck blanket thinking is wrong).

The failure is in your outlook and how you process data. Couple that with what seems like a belief in your own infallibility and you get these wrong headed notions about how things work.

I ask again, When SC doesn't kill EVE, will you come back here and admit you were wrong. I'm willing to do so if EVe suffers major hits because of SC (which I don't believe will happen and I think the actual history of EVE online supports me).


Edit: Fixed a quote. ISD Ezwal.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-07-15 19:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
Vaju Enki wrote:
Comparing a sandbox mmo-rpg game like EvE with a arcade multiplayer game like Star Citizen is like comparing Civilization with Quake.


Doesn't matter, because it has the things that PvPers really like, and EvE is a PvP game, right?

How SC competes is very direct and at the very core of EvE.

"Capsuleer" or Buck Rogers.

The market will decide.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
SmokinDank
Horizon Research Group
#90 - 2013-07-15 19:41:23 UTC
oh man I loved Buck Rogers when I was a kid. Gil Gerard was my hero.

...
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#91 - 2013-07-15 19:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
SmokinDank wrote:
oh man I loved Buck Rogers when I was a kid. Gil Gerard was my hero.

Erin Gray in that skintight flight suit and the short short skirts.... damn

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
#92 - 2013-07-15 19:56:53 UTC
If they just stopped developing EVE completely... no new undock buttons, no new spacebook or launcher glitter, just none of this great development any longer I'm sure people would still play it. People who have part of their lives invested in the game for instance, though others may have second thoughts when PLEX is 2b ISK because there are no new players because other games have moved in on the space sandbox niche.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#93 - 2013-07-15 20:01:10 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
If they just stopped developing EVE completely... no new undock buttons, no new spacebook or launcher glitter, just none of this great development any longer I'm sure people would still play it. People who have part of their lives invested in the game for instance, though others may have second thoughts when PLEX is 2b ISK because there are no new players because other games have moved in on the space sandbox niche.


Guess you missed the news flash from Incarna. There is a hard point in subscriptions where Eve will die if it drops below. People wont be able to play it if its gone.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Emma Yobibit
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-07-15 20:05:16 UTC
Just tell your self one thing, with all the hot drops in eve don't you think CCP would hot drop Star Citizen when it comes out, instead of showing off how much titans and mother ships they actually have?

Christ Roberts is a rookie in MMOs, it does not take a 10 million dollars budget to do a good lasting online universe. It takes knowledge and experience.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-07-15 20:07:56 UTC
I wouldn't really compare Star Citizen to EVE, they are both very different games really tbh.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-07-15 20:08:21 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
If they just stopped developing EVE completely... no new undock buttons, no new spacebook or launcher glitter, just none of this great development any longer I'm sure people would still play it. People who have part of their lives invested in the game for instance, though others may have second thoughts when PLEX is 2b ISK because there are no new players because other games have moved in on the space sandbox niche.


Yet even Bittervets leave eventually.

When they do, and fewer and fewer are coming in the front door. That's how games die a slow death.

To reverse that trend, is to make a game that attracts more than that leaves.

Powers that be won't like it, but dinosaurs became extinct, and that's not a good route for a game with players invested time and money in.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2013-07-15 20:09:42 UTC
Things that might make me quit Eve:

A still live and operational Earth And Beyond in a dimension where Westwood is still in business.

Things that make me laugh at the hopes and dreams of mankind:

Star Citizen
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-07-15 20:09:57 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
I wouldn't really compare Star Citizen to EVE, they are both very different games really tbh.

Ya SC is not even out, i love how different this makes them

For all the people here thinking CCP is sitting there doing nothing i think you are wrong, CCP works in mysterious ways, i hope they are working on something we dint saw coming.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#99 - 2013-07-15 20:10:36 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Anyone can make a lot of promises. Delivering on them is harder.


Heh, so Star Citizen just entered CCP's radar? Bear

In case you don't know, last week Two Step wrote a little op-ed on how SC's hype looked like BC:3000's hype (but then, is Chris Roberts like Derek Smart?). Since then, the CSM and certain "EVE personalities" have been banging how SC is only full of promises (going alpha by the end of the current year is one of them).

And in case that you have been away for the last two years, and don't know the current state of development for EVE, it must be noted that CCP's promises about EVE for this year and coming 2014 are these:

None.

There is nothing on the works. No big goal, and not even have the guy who should be working on that (the Executive Producer). They have a 5 year plan to have a 3 year plan to get a development plan for 2014... with more space. Because EVE, of all things, precisely lacks space, as we can tell from the raging crowds in lowsec and WH.

Star Ctizen's development cost, as per Chris Robert, is estimated in 22 million USD. Those are CCP's incomes for some three months (many variables are unknown, but 100 million/year looks about right).

So let's say that expansion to expansion, CCP earns some 50 million dollars. That's what could had been earned between Retribution and Odyssey.

Now look at Odyssey. Does it look like 2 brand new AAA games? 1 single brand new AAA game? Does it even look AAA, with the nausea-inducting jump animation, the borked launcher, the black loading screen and the scatter loot minigame lampoon? Features which weren't in the plans when Retribution launched -they just came out of the blue, hurrily packed together, and that was only because the CSM was horrified at CCP's actual plans for summer 2013.

Maybe Chris Roberts is full of hot air and SC will flop miserably, but by the day that could happen, CCP will have taken some 150 million USD from our pockets and EVE will not be different than it is now... as it has been for the last 2 years... 5 years... 10 years...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#100 - 2013-07-15 20:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Emma Yobibit wrote:
Just tell your self one thing, with all the hot drops in eve don't you think CCP would hot drop Star Citizen when it comes out, instead of showing off how much titans and mother ships they actually have?

Christ Roberts is a rookie in MMOs, it does not take a 10 million dollars budget to do a good lasting online universe. It takes knowledge and experience.


Oh. What did CCP start with?

One single title and zero experience in MMO's.

Quote:
Ya SC is not even out, i love how different this makes them


They are in current development, that makes them a lot different.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it