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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2011-11-09 18:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
I appreciate that CCP is looking at this issue, but frankly I don't think you guys are appreciating the magnitude of hybrid inadequacy. Just think about it in abstract terms: you crazily overbuffed lasers, then crazily overbuffed projectiles to compensate. Now you're trying to balance this situation by making very timid buffs to hybrids to match the huge buffs to lasers and projectiles. Something in the calculus there just doesn't quite add up.

The fact is that the hybrid problem is the result of many factors, all of which need to be fixed if you're going to actually make it a usable system. If you have a situation where one pilot can never get in range to apply his dps by any action that he does himself, then you have a game mechanics failure. Increasing acceleration without making Gallente ships the fastest does not change the problems we have now. All it does is give you a little more time to catch your targets after you get a warp in. It does nothing to change the current problem with fleet fights where you have to remain on field for extended periods of time and often can't warp around because of points, not to mention ships always moving and not always being very close to each other.

The reality in gang fights is that Gallente ships are going to take losses before they can even apply their dps to a single target. Even if you did buff speed, by the time the Gallente ships actually begin to apply their dps, they've already suffered losses due to them having to travel to target and facing enemy fire the whole way through. Logic would mandate that in order to balance this situation, they have to have something that enables their ships to make up for this loss of dps before they even make it to target, either by giving them much more tank without compromising their speed, or by upping their dps to ridiculous levels. The most sensible option is to find a middle ground between those two and give them more dps than they have now, while allowing them to fit a decent (not ridiculous) tank without hurting their speed. As a side note, you should be aware that if you do not buff their speed, none of it will matter because they will never actually be able to make it to target, and thus no amount of dps or tank buffs will save them.

On that same note, you must take away the speed penalties from armor rigs/plates. Keep the agility penalties if you want, but having their max speed be so negatively affected means that any possible speed buff will be negated by the requirement that they fit the rigs/plates if they want to survive. And make no mistake, tank is absolutely required. A ship that does 1200 dps but dies in two volleys is useless.

All that considered, in order to balance the situation, you guys are going to have to come up with some much higher numbers for buffs. Blasters need at least 20-30% more damage than they have now, they must be the fastest ships with 'meh' agility (so Minmatar ships still have options as far as pilot maneuvers), they need another 20% tracking for good measure, and they need to have armor rigs/plates lose their penalty to max velocity. These changes will make them actually competitive in gang fights.

As an aside, I'd say also that in order to improve Gallente effectiveness in fleet fights, the sensor damp bonuses on the Gall ewar hulls need to be greatly increased. 5% per level is a joke, and at this point in time you need 3 damps from a dedicated ewar boat in order to seriously hamper him. Compare that to a falcon that can potentially incapacitate 4-6 ships by itself. Obviously that situation is not acceptable. Also, if the consensus is that the active rep bonus needs to go, which I don't necessarily agree with, then the best alternative would be to give the ships an armor HP bonus of 7.5-10% per level. That way the ships have the ability to actually fit a tank with their lower low slot counts than amarr tankers.
Zelphinine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#382 - 2011-11-09 18:17:51 UTC
Wall of text inbound! Ugh



This is some ideas I had with regards to reworking hybrids. They're centered around the idea that hybrids are used by both Gallente and Caldari in (theoretically) both short and long range capacity. As such I tried to move away from the concept of 'Gallente Blaster, Caldari Rail' and focus on associated issues with the weapons themselves and deliver a set of weapons that both races can use in their intended role.

I don't claim this is an omnibus fix, I actually stayed away from specific 'power performance' analysis because there's a pile of it done already and I doubt I'd bring anything new to the table. I'm also not aiming to try to fix the specific 'blasters have ****** range' issue per se - that's a related but seperate problem.

That said, this is what I'd recommend for consideration.

First,for S/M/L blasters I'd reduce rate of fire by 50-70%, giving them a slow cycle speed like artillery. Damage (and cap use) would be increased to compensate. This would help deal with the 'slingshot' issue; Gallente ships now fire slower, more deliberately, but with tremendous alpha. In small-gang situation where lag isn't an issue, can essentially 'pick their shots' for best timing and thus transversal/range. From what I've heard they could use more transversal in general, but I leave that to the wiser.

Option B is to fix your tracking formula so that a kilometer long battleship five hundred meters away actually is impossible to miss because it is an enormous target. But that's not gonna happen. :p


Now we're getting into the real concept rebuilt. The following are specifically intended for M and L blasters, since as I understand S guns in general already function reasonably well and only need a bit of tweaking.

Under what I envision, M and L blaster turrets will include a capacitor bonus. This will help deal with the fact that blaster ships 100% engage within scram and neut range, MWDs having already consumed substantial cap. For some starting numbers, M blasters would provide +100 cap and L would provide +300 (going by the Thorax/Megathron the ration should be 1:4 but battleships have more guns). This would give both Gallente AND Caldari the option to engage effectively up close without suffering catastrophic cap failure before accomplishing anything; as an associated effect it'd also help with capacitor recharge rate to further stave off neuts, MWD consumption - even active rep, if that's deemed to stay as Gallente style.
The fluff for this would be that the particle accelerator rings in blasters allow for auxilary power storage which due to modern advances can be properly plumbed into the ship's power grid.

Meanwhile, Rails would get an electronics bonus; Smallest caliber (twins) would get a +signature resolution, midcaliber would get a smaller amount of signature resolution and a boost to targeting range and largest caliber would get a more substantial boost to targeting range. I have not run any major numbers here, but I envision that 425mm rails would add ~4 km targeting range each. Giving a baseline Rokh a targeting range of 152.5 km, with perfect skills. Coincidentally enough that's the limit of effective sniping (funny, eh). A Megathron would go to 116, with a Hyperion about 115. Still needing a sebo to hit 'max snipe range', but giving Railgun platforms the ability to be effective snipers in their own way - by freeing up more slots for useful things, like additional buffer tank. For smaller-caliber weapons instead railgun ships would have vastly superior locking times. Basically in collective, railgun platforms would be flown with the attitude of 'there is no place to hide' - they do not have the DPS of lasers nor the alpha of artillery, but they will be extremely hard to avoid, on the ship level. Likely in practice this would make rails more suited for skirmish and small gang warfare as opposed to the DPSfests of large fleets, but I can't make any real prediction.
The fluff here is that properly-integrated sensors on railguns allow for dispersed, additional recievers, improving the tactical sensing abilities of ships.

You might be asking 'But we have Sebos and cap boosters/batteries. All this is unnecessary'. To which the answer is that's the point. To (partially) obselete the use of some modules on Hybrid ships to make up for deficiencies elsewhere - be it in performance or in situation - and to give them their own distinct flavor. And to pre-empt the cap battery issue in specific, NOBODY uses cap batteries. So 'Blasters are better cap batteries than cap batteries' is a null issue, becaus we're looking to make them useful, not useless.
The best part is, these would carry over to whatever platform fits them, so cross-racial fitting would bring their system bonuses with them.


And finally, ammunition. There's been a lot of talk on hybrid ammo fixes (which I also think are necessary - the general paradigm set by projectiles is better, IMO)

So I'd suggest the following:

High Damage, Short Range (-30% optimal)
Plutonium (80% Therm, 20% Kin)
Iridium (20% Them, 80% Kin)

Mid Damage, Mid Range
Uranium (80% Therm, 20% Kin)
Lead (20% Them, 80% Kin)

Low Damage, Long Range (+40% optimal)
Thorium (80% Therm, 20% Kin)
Tungsten (20% Them, 80% Kin)

Then we have our two 'specialized' T1 ammo types
Antimatter (50% therm, 25% EM, 25% explosive) -50% optimal, -50% cap use, +100% Falloff
Iron (100% kin) +60% Optimal, +60% falloff

I'd also boost optimal a bit and reduce falloff to compensate with these suggestions - projectiles fight in fallow, hybrids fight in optimal.

I'm not going to get in to T2 ammo types, though I'd suggest Null be 25% all damage types - it's a tech 2 antimatter particle bolt.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#383 - 2011-11-09 18:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
I would like to point somehting out to alot of you people which many seem to miss :3, as I understand it... and correct me if im wrong, Tallest was going to boost the tracking of blasters by 20% correct?

And people still say the blasters will hit like **** within their range? your forgetting one important factor, so will the enemy, you will just hit better then he will and therefor have higher real dps (unless he has same turrets or better fit, or smaller class)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Jodie Amille
EVE Corporation 690846971
#384 - 2011-11-09 18:25:24 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
My out of the box idea of the day. Keep an open mind.

From day one there is one attribute that all Gallente ships have that is superior to all other races. This was obviously a racial trait of some sort whose purpose has been lost in the sands of time.

Gallente ships have more structure points than any other race. A lot more in most cases. The Amarr generally have second most, followed by the Matari then the Caldari. The only exception to my knowledge is the Tech 3 ships where the Amarr suddenly have more structure. This is obviously the design team forgetting about the old racial trait of Gallente.

If there were a few more low slot modules released... like an Advanced damage control II. Say this increased the hull resists by 25 percent and gave a hull HP Boost of 50 percent... increasing the efficiency of reinforced bulkheads (WOW WHO EVER USES THAT MODULE!) even increasing the efficiency of bulkhead and remote bulkhead reppers (Yes they exist in the game, I swear). Switch the active armor bonus's on existing gallente ships over to Structure resist bonuses. Switch MWD bonuses to structure amount bonuses.
Now you have a Gallente ship that is beefy, is unaffected by heavy armor plates, and able to fit a nice passive tank with a couple of decent modules. Can other races fit these things? Sure why not. They can't fit them as well as Gallente can. They won't have ships with bonuses to fitting them and they won't have as much structure points.

REAL MEN HULL TANK. (only it wouldn't be a joke this time.)



Quoting this cause it's a seriously friggin awesome idea and deserves more visibility.
Dratic
TURN LEFT
#385 - 2011-11-09 18:27:08 UTC
I'm not sure if this has been covered but are the faction and officer hybrids getting the fitting reductions as well as at the moment t2 are easier to fit than faction which it wasn't before.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#386 - 2011-11-09 18:30:32 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
I would like to point somehting out to alot of you people which many seem to miss :3, as I understand it... and correct me if im wrong, Tallest was going to boost the tracking of blasters by 20% correct?

And people still say the blasters will hit like **** within their range? your forgetting one important factor, so will the enemy, you will just hit better then he will and therefor have higher real dps (unless he has same turrets or better fit, or smaller class)


You have to get into range for tracking to matter.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#387 - 2011-11-09 18:37:37 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
I would like to point somehting out to alot of you people which many seem to miss :3, as I understand it... and correct me if im wrong, Tallest was going to boost the tracking of blasters by 20% correct?

And people still say the blasters will hit like **** within their range? your forgetting one important factor, so will the enemy, you will just hit better then he will and therefor have higher real dps (unless he has same turrets or better fit, or smaller class)


You have to get into range for tracking to matter.



And that is ofc true,also why I suggested CCP makes gallente have better agility compared to minimatar, while minimatar still maintains higher speed (that doesn't break the design does it?)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2011-11-09 18:39:44 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
I would like to point somehting out to alot of you people which many seem to miss :3, as I understand it... and correct me if im wrong, Tallest was going to boost the tracking of blasters by 20% correct?

And people still say the blasters will hit like **** within their range? your forgetting one important factor, so will the enemy, you will just hit better then he will and therefor have higher real dps (unless he has same turrets or better fit, or smaller class)


You have to get into range for tracking to matter.

yes, you allready suffered by getting in to range and stuff, and now suffer tracking because enemy does too ?:D
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#389 - 2011-11-09 18:41:15 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
I would like to point somehting out to alot of you people which many seem to miss :3, as I understand it... and correct me if im wrong, Tallest was going to boost the tracking of blasters by 20% correct?

And people still say the blasters will hit like **** within their range? your forgetting one important factor, so will the enemy, you will just hit better then he will and therefor have higher real dps (unless he has same turrets or better fit, or smaller class)


You have to get into range for tracking to matter.



And that is ofc true,also why I suggested CCP makes gallente have better agility compared to minimatar, while minimatar still maintains higher speed (that doesn't break the design does it?)


With all that increased agility I can put smoke generators and spell out LOL in space as minmatar guns reduce me to slag.

Agility does not help a chaser. Agility helps the chased. Look at a Cheetah and a Gazelle. The Cheetah is faster... the Gazelle can turn on a dime. If the Gazelle is faster... the Cheetah can be as agile as you please and you know what? It will never catch the Gazelle.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2011-11-09 18:42:09 UTC
Very few people I have met are as qualified as Julius to comment on the current state of Hybrids and Gallente boats.

If you want to listen to someone from the community, look nowhere else.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2011-11-09 18:43:07 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
I would like to point somehting out to alot of you people which many seem to miss :3, as I understand it... and correct me if im wrong, Tallest was going to boost the tracking of blasters by 20% correct?

And people still say the blasters will hit like **** within their range? your forgetting one important factor, so will the enemy, you will just hit better then he will and therefor have higher real dps (unless he has same turrets or better fit, or smaller class)


You have to get into range for tracking to matter.



And that is ofc true,also why I suggested CCP makes gallente have better agility compared to minimatar, while minimatar still maintains higher speed (that doesn't break the design does it?)


How slightly better turning speed and acceleration helps galente killing much faster minnmatar **** that could simply fly in front of me out of my range ?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#392 - 2011-11-09 18:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Jodie Amille wrote:
Quoting this cause it's a seriously friggin awesome idea and deserves more visibility.


Pimping hull rig proposal. Hull Rigs!

There are a number of reasons why this is a good thing.

1. Brings back some balance between "hull tankers", shield tankers, and armor tankers by providing a hull tanking rig that is on par with CDFEs and trimarks
2. Helps Gallente increase speed - not to the level of Minmatar - without boosting Amarr ships too much.
3. Gallente ships can now have a moderately low tanks, use mid slots for tackle at close range, AND keep up speed.
4. Reinforced bulkheads help out the larger Gallente hulls more than the smaller ones (which are mostly fine).
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#393 - 2011-11-09 18:46:42 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Nemesor wrote:

You have to get into range for tracking to matter.



And that is ofc true,also why I suggested CCP makes gallente have better agility compared to minimatar, while minimatar still maintains higher speed (that doesn't break the design does it?)


Erm. Better agility doesn't mean faster speed. Minmatar ships are faster pre-SiSi and with the current changes will still be faster post-SiSi. The design was broken prior to any of the changes, and remains broken without properly addressing speed.

I think Gallente vs. Amarr modded speeds will be a wash, but still, I'm not closing the gap on anything when I can fly 800m/s and the other guy is also 800m/s, give or take a few m/s. Blasterboats need to be faster for present and proposed blaster turret specs to work. I don't understand why this is so hard for devs to accept.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2011-11-09 18:47:13 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Very few people I have met are as qualified as Julius to comment on the current state of Hybrids and Gallente boats.


I read the post. No offense intended when I say that it rehashes everything we have been saying. It does put it all together nicely though.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2011-11-09 18:56:45 UTC
Bubanni wrote:

And that is ofc true,also why I suggested CCP makes gallente have better agility compared to minimatar, while minimatar still maintains higher speed (that doesn't break the design does it?)



minmatar ships having higher speed and still keeping their excellent agility, even if gall had higher agility, means that they will still kite effortlessly

I maintain speed is a key attribute blaster boats need
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2011-11-09 19:03:44 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
Very few people I have met are as qualified as Julius to comment on the current state of Hybrids and Gallente boats.


I read the post. No offense intended when I say that it rehashes everything we have been saying. It does put it all together nicely though.


Aye, most everything has already been said, but I figure this is the case of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. It took years and huge threadnaughts to get CCP to this point, so why stop now when the consensus is the changes aren't adequate. We have to drive it into the devs' brains til they accept it.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#397 - 2011-11-09 19:04:27 UTC
Those wanting to hull tank are forgetting that the reinforced bulkhead mod has the same effects plates do, it essentially works as an inverse nanofiber, it slows you down, which in turn does nothing to help out the gallente ships.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#398 - 2011-11-09 19:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
PinkKnife wrote:
Those wanting to hull tank are forgetting that the reinforced bulkhead mod has the same effects plates do, it essentially works as an inverse nanofiber, it slows you down, which in turn does nothing to help out the gallente ships.


Yes, that's why they need to remove or change the penalty of reinforced bulkheads to something else like reduced cargo space. Now you have something to work with that makes sense.
Bhaal Chinnian
#399 - 2011-11-09 19:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bhaal Chinnian
Julius Foederatus wrote:
As an aside, I'd say also that in order to improve Gallente effectiveness in fleet fights, the sensor damp bonuses on the Gall ewar hulls need to be greatly increased. 5% per level is a joke, and at this point in time you need 3 damps from a dedicated ewar boat in order to seriously hamper him


As an Arazu pilot, I can concur with this. Range is the issue(imo the current damage bonuses are decent ,but ...meh) and the only way to make blaster boats viable in Eve Online is to address this by:
1)Actively-By increasing speed. Many great suggestions have been put forth by the community.
2)Passively-By DeNerfing Sensor Damps. Currently an L5 ewar spec pilot can damp a little over 50% range per damp. This only puts ...say a Stabber within disruptor(not overheated) range of a thorax.

I'm not suggesting buff the **** out of damps, but maybe just enough to maintain parity between ships....and then it becomes all about pilot skill (1v1).

Damps aren't 100% effective every time either but neither is kiting.

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton

Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2011-11-09 19:09:57 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
[
Aye, most everything has already been said, but I figure this is the case of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. It took years and huge threadnaughts to get CCP to this point, so why stop now when the consensus is the changes aren't adequate. We have to drive it into the devs' brains til they accept it.


No doubt.