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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Bhaal Chinnian
#361 - 2011-11-09 16:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bhaal Chinnian
Moonaura wrote:
Bhaal Chinnian wrote:
ok another brilliant idea....DENERF SENSOR DAMPS and give all gallente cruisers and above an appropriate effectiveness bonus.

5% for BS per level
7.5% for BC per level
10% cruiser per level
none for frigs
***remove Gallente's ability to use railguns
1) solves range problems passively by forcing your target into range of webs
2) no need for speed buff
3) hybrid damage buffs are sufficient now, since the real issue is employing blasters at range
case closed...move along pleaseP



******note. only allow sensor damps to be used by gallente ships



LOL so what... nobody can shoot you until they're in range of blasters. This wouldn't make Gallente overpowered at all. End irony.



Exactly my point! This doesn't make them OP if the proposed change is implemented. It is just a PASSIVE way of forcing your opponent into blaster range(1v1) and is subject to the same rules as CALDARI ECM(oh noes hey I can't shoot qq Cry).

If say, a Vagabond wants to pewpew with a Brutix....it Kites it as SPEED and RANGE as a defense.
if a Tengu wants to fight a proteus....it Kites it as SPEED and RANGE as a defense.
if an Abaddon fights a mega, it warps in and melts from range.

Do you see the counter to the above scenarios which DON'T involve drastic numbers crunching and buffing/nerfing/goat****ing both Minnie and Gallente?

Minnie have Speed and Range(with webs/speed/AC falloff) .
Amarr have neuts AND Tracking Disruption/ Range.
Caldari have ECM(see Falcon) and Range.
Gallente have Damage(kind of Sad), but without speed , it simply can't compete, so if Sensor damps were denerfed it may mitigate some of the advantages(My guns can't track because you are too fast,no range, being kited because I'm too slow) to the other races ships NOT make them OP.

Once again, it needs to be said that IF you are unlucky/unskilled enough to get caught within web range and held there, then you will , in all probability DIAF.

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#362 - 2011-11-09 16:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Torei Dutalis
Nemesor wrote:


REAL MEN HULL TANK. (only it wouldn't be a joke this time.)



Honestly, kind of love this. Gallente frigs already do this anyway. Here's an opportunity to be original and makes some totally obscure wtf items super awesome. This might be a long-shot batshit crazy kind of idea, but CCP, the people who love blasters are batshit crazy anyway, and this is a perfect fit for Gallente to be relevant and unique little butterflies.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2011-11-09 16:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Torei Dutalis wrote:
Nemesor wrote:


REAL MEN HULL TANK. (only it wouldn't be a joke this time.)



Honestly, kind of love this. Gallente frigs already do this anyway. Here's an opportunity to be original and makes some totally obscure wtf items super awesome. This might be a long-shot batshit crazy kind of idea, but CCP, the people who love blasters are batshit crazy anyway, and this is a perfect fit for Gallente to be relevant and unique little butterflies.


Big big problem with this. Gallente pilots would forfeit boosted resists to armor/shields on t2/t3 ships unless this change also included additional resists applied to hull on those same t2/t3 ships, and I don't see that happening.

Still, the idea is not totally lost on me. Isn't it strange that Amarr/Minmatar not only have the best turrets, but their t2/t3 ships also are best-suited for omni-tanking? Hrm....
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#364 - 2011-11-09 16:43:44 UTC
@Bhaal Chinnian, I feel your pain and agree Gallente need sorting, but just feel this is not an ideal solution for so many reasons, such as jumping into a gate camp, warping to a location etc, you won't get the chance to kite or escape etc in these situations, given the random nature of the gate spawn location you are given etc and it doesn't do anything to counter Amarr and to a degree, Caldari.

I think Gallente need sorting, along with Caldari Hybrid ships, but I just feel this wouldn't work as well as a speed burst mechanic for gallente via a module or other way.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2011-11-09 16:44:17 UTC
Magosian wrote:
Torei Dutalis wrote:
[quote=Nemesor]

REAL MEN HULL TANK. (only it wouldn't be a joke this time.)



Big big problem with this. Gallente pilots would be forefitting the boosted resists to armor/shields on t2/t3 ships unless this change also included additional resists were also applied to hull, and I don't see that happening.

Still, the idea is not totally lost on me. Isn't it strange that Amarr/Minmatar not only have the best turrets, but their t2/t3 ships also are best-suited for omni-tanking? Hrm....


There would be tweaks and such made if this ever was implemented. Why couldn't T2 resists be buffed on Hull a little? An additional benefit is that it would open up another option for the logistics ships. The Gallente logistics being remote hull repairers.

This is just a basic proposal. Nothing specific. Obviously it would require a lot of adjustments.
Guirdarr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#366 - 2011-11-09 16:58:35 UTC
Overall, the buffs for Hybrids seem very reasonable.

Blasters are supposed to fit the medium between Falloff dependent Projectile weapons and Optimal range dependent Energy weapons.

Fitting reductions allows for better or less constraining fits that allow for more elaborate fits.
Tracking which really improve the DPS especially in Blaster boats. Overall with more tracking you'll see your DPS go up dramatically.
The capacitor reduction will allow for more active tanked inclined fits and reduce the need for cap boosters in larger ships
The ammo reload time will allow for blaster boats to use ammo that will still do dps while you're closing range to really melt their face.

With good piloting, range will only be an issue when facing nano fleet gangs, especially since the speed/agility buff should even negate some of those problems.

For the blaster side of the fence I believe these changes are done, you've made blasters a VERY competitive arsenal yet again.

However, for rails, there are people still going to be leaning more towards Beams or Artillery. The main reason is that rails are trying to fit the role of Beams with similar DPS and larger ranges and reduced cap. At this point, unlike Blasters, Rails do not have the niche role that they need to be used in combat as frequently.

So far you've increased damage, tracking and cap usage on them which is great! But by creating some role where you have 50/50 optimal/falloff ratio like you do with blasters and make it the highest long range DPS weaponry like you do with blasters.

Don't readily buff everything Hybrids in sight. Many of these posts are trying to make Hybrids the best of the best. Overall I think making hybrids more desirable like you are currently doing is the smartest choice.

Guirdarr out -
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#367 - 2011-11-09 17:09:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Magosian wrote:

CCP, Please understand I greatly applaud the effort and I think most of the players agree on this. But this makes it all the more frustrating to see it wasted. If you, CCP, are not willing to change hybrids from the ground up so they can compete with projectiles and lasers at a fundamental level, all of these efforts and tweaks are in vain. Please make some effort to show you understand this.


Put simply, hybrids do nothing that cannot also be done with lasers or projectiles. As long as this situations exists, there is still no reason to use hybrids.

Repeated power-creep to lasers and projectiles has allowed them to encroach into hybrids' territory. You need to evict them. Remove the Apoc's optimal bonus, the 25% Pulse tracking boost and all of the projectile/TE changes.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2011-11-09 17:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Guirdarr wrote:

Blasters are supposed to fit the medium between Falloff dependent Projectile weapons and Optimal range dependent Energy weapons.


Umm. What? Did blasters get that memo?


Guirdarr wrote:

With good piloting, range will only be an issue when facing nano fleet gangs, especially since the speed/agility buff should even negate some of those problems.


Oh. Cool. So tell me Ace: When your ship goes 800 m/s and your enemies goes 801 m/s, what great piloting stunt are you going to pull off to close range if you are 30km away.

Guirdarr wrote:

For the blaster side of the fence I believe these changes are done, you've made blasters a VERY competitive arsenal yet again.


Obviously someone that does not use blasters.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2011-11-09 17:18:14 UTC
Guirdarr wrote:
Overall, the buffs for Hybrids seem very reasonable.

Blasters are supposed to fit the medium between Falloff dependent Projectile weapons and Optimal range dependent Energy weapons.


Why? Is there some rule of which I am not aware?

Guirdarr wrote:
So far you've increased damage, tracking and cap usage on them which is great! But by creating some role where you have 50/50 optimal/falloff ratio like you do with blasters and make it the highest long range DPS weaponry like you do with blasters.


The above statement implies blasters already have a role. I should preface that it's not a "role" if it's not unique. Having said this, what would that role be?

Guirdarr wrote:
Don't readily buff everything Hybrids in sight. Many of these posts are trying to make Hybrids the best of the best. Overall I think making hybrids more desirable like you are currently doing is the smartest choice.

Guirdarr out -


I disagree.

Why segregate roles between blasters and rails? Autocannons don't use cap. Artillery doesn't use cap. This is because PROJECTILES don't use cap. Same goes for lasers and their logistical benefits of crystal swapping. Projectiles effectively benefit from falloff bonuses. Lasers effectively benefit from optimal bonuses. This is no segregation here, so why would we want to impose limitations between rails and blasters, both of whom happen to be under the weakest of the three turret types? This all goes back to my earlier post about hybrids being fundamentally broken. A pilot will never choose hybrids for practical purposes because other turrets provide SEVERAL passive benefits and hybrids provide zero. This must change.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#370 - 2011-11-09 17:18:18 UTC
Guirdarr wrote:
Overall, the buffs for Hybrids seem very reasonable.


no offense man, but you've obviously never flown a hybrid ship in pvp. i dont think you know what ure talking about.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#371 - 2011-11-09 17:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Ironically, you can argue that hybrids on TQ are already quite well balanced. They have fairly well-defined roles in which they're effective, but outside which they're really not very good. Having a role is a good thing; the problem is that repeated power-creep to laserboats and projectileboats has broadened their engagement envelopes to such an extent that they no longer have well-defined roles - they're effective in any pretty much any situation.

As long as this is so, and hybrids are kept in their defined roles, there's no real reason to use hybrids. Flexibility is important, and hybrids simply don't have it.

Except small hybrids, they're basically fine, don't change them.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#372 - 2011-11-09 17:29:18 UTC
Regarding the speed argument, I can turn that argument around: If you can only out-damage your target at 20km and above, how will you ever keep that distance if they're faster than you?

The speed question is not a simple issue of "they're close-range, so they need to be fastest"; that simply makes them overpowered. It's already difficult enough to keep range in a duel situation due to initiative of the closer-range ship in initiating MWD or overheat, the initiative of course changes ("rubberband effect"), as well as the simplicity with which you can hold down a fast ship (scram). All of this are balancing factors to being slower.

I do not know how to fix the close-range problem, but simply making them the fastest ships is certainly not the solution.

The agility bonus they got in the changes will go a long way to help there. I'd wait and see how that works out before going overboard with more boosts.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2011-11-09 17:30:58 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Put simply, hybrids do nothing that cannot also be done with lasers or projectiles. As long as this situations exists, there is still no reason to use hybrids.


Absolutely. This is well stated.

Gypsio III wrote:
Ironically, you can argue that hybrids on TQ are already quite well balanced. They have fairly well-defined roles in which they're effective, but outside which they're really not very good. Having a role is a good thing; the problem is that repeated power-creep to laserboats and projectileboats has broadened their engagement envelopes to such an extent that they no longer have well-defined roles - they're effective in any pretty much any situation.

As long as this is so, and hybrids are kept in their defined roles, there's no real reason to use hybrids. Flexibility is important, and hybrids simply don't have it.

Except small hybrids, they're basically fine, don't change them.


Hrm, perhaps I should say "effective role?" I admit, I often use different phrases when attempting to describe the same thing. "Passive benefit" or "unique benefit" would be another. I guess I take the term "role" with the implication of "unique." For example, I think the cap-free benefit of projectiles lends itself to largely benefitting pilots who choose local rep. That would be a role, in my eyes.

Either way, it's evident you understand what I am saying, and I appreciate the articulation. Smile
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2011-11-09 17:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Arkady Sadik wrote:
If you can only out-damage your target at 20km and above, how will you ever keep that distance if they're faster than you?


I am going to guess you are a Republic Uni. Graduate.

If you try to maintain distance... and he tries to close distance... and it takes 30 seconds to get you into range... who has the advantage. The ship that has been applying damage the whole time or the ship that has just started to apply damage.

Being able to close range for Gallente isn't overpowered. It is the only way they will ever cause you a single point of damage.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#375 - 2011-11-09 17:43:56 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
If you try to maintain distance... and he tries to close distance... and it takes 30 seconds to get you into range... who has the advantage. The ship that has been applying damage the whole time or the ship that has just started to apply damage.
If you start out at 0km, the long-range ship doesn't even have a chance to make distance thanks to speed-reducing ewar.

Sorry, it's not that simple.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#376 - 2011-11-09 17:59:59 UTC
Quote:



Oh. Cool. So tell me Ace: When your ship goes 800 m/s and your enemies goes 801 m/s, what great piloting stunt are you going to pull off to close range if you are 30km away.



Best sentence ever.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2011-11-09 18:01:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Repeat post please delete
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#378 - 2011-11-09 18:02:33 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
If you try to maintain distance... and he tries to close distance... and it takes 30 seconds to get you into range... who has the advantage. The ship that has been applying damage the whole time or the ship that has just started to apply damage.
If you start out at 0km, the long-range ship doesn't even have a chance to make distance thanks to speed-reducing ewar.

Sorry, it's not that simple.


The only times you start at Zero are undocking at a station and landing at a Celestial. If you are at zero with a blaster boat at a station you can dock. If you are sitting at zero at a Celestial, Darwin has decided to remove you from the genepool and good riddance.

How often do you start a fight at Zero? If you say a lot.. or all the time... then you are doing it wrong. If you say... almost never... I will believe you.


Bhaal Chinnian
#379 - 2011-11-09 18:03:34 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
If you try to maintain distance... and he tries to close distance... and it takes 30 seconds to get you into range... who has the advantage. The ship that has been applying damage the whole time or the ship that has just started to apply damage.
If you start out at 0km, the long-range ship doesn't even have a chance to make distance thanks to speed-reducing ewar.

Sorry, it's not that simple.


Not a good argument. Try 180 degrees the other way. start at 100 and ride like the Knights of old!

Who will be doing dps 1st?
---if the pilot is skilled he will vear(sp?) off and try to stay out of blaster boat web/gun range.......which isn't effing hard to do.

Once said ship his an acceptable dps range, they try to stay at it.... if that range happens to be outside of Mr. Blasterboat Range and outside of their web...then Mr. Blasterboat is rendered impotent and dies with cargo hold full of ammo and all dead drone wrecks in space. End of story.

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton
sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2011-11-09 18:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: sq0
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
If you try to maintain distance... and he tries to close distance... and it takes 30 seconds to get you into range... who has the advantage. The ship that has been applying damage the whole time or the ship that has just started to apply damage.
If you start out at 0km, the long-range ship doesn't even have a chance to make distance thanks to speed-reducing ewar.

Sorry, it's not that simple.


lol...OFC. Same as short range ship don't have chance if you start at 50km - because you will destroy whole ship until it even start shooting...

this time you blaster have chance of eventualy catching you, in your opinion (as it is today) -never ever