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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#321 - 2011-11-09 09:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
A few things Things...

I did damage mods on those stats because I wanted to see them at a realistic use - The armor ships have difficulties fitting as many damage mods as the shield tankers without completely sacrificing tank... Judge for yourself. As long you know under what circumstances you are getting the numbers.

Medium railguns - I just found out I had a 5% medium hybrid implant fitted... It looks like Medium railguns need a bigger boost than large railguns for sure.

And yes as someone mentioned the railguns still need an edge other than range. It is very important to shape a usefull role for these weapons. It does look like medium railguns really need more tracking.

Small hybrids: I dont care but be carefull
medium railguns: need 5% more dps (15% total) + better tracking + a unique feature besides range
large railguns: looks surprisingly good to me if you are not flying Rokh
Ammunition: It's a mess and needs to be sorted out

Pinky

Also: Give the gallente battleships a ROF bonus and the Rokh a damage bonus instead of optimal.
Again sorry for forgetting a medium hybrid implant in my skull - But be very cautious comparing the medium railgun stats. For once the Eagle actually HAS a range bonus that might be usefull and ship bonus might play into the HAC/BC stats a lot.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#322 - 2011-11-09 09:43:05 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

i only care about rails at this point; blasters are a lost cause.


I wish I could disagree with you. I renewed my subscription specifically to take part in the Blaster rework after canceling it over the microtransactions debacle. If balance (Hybrid buffs and gallente ship buffs) of some sort is not reached during this expansion I will cancel and wait again. I am not paying to play at a disadvantage.
So far it looks like the Matari-centric mindset at CCP is going to continue with small token changes being handed out here and there to the less deserving races.


It's trivial to make blasters work, it just requires a few nerfs. But CCP doesn't have the balls to nerf anything, hence the incapability of addressing the problem of intrusion of lasers and projectiles into blasters' and rails' niches.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#323 - 2011-11-09 09:50:17 UTC
mkint wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:

Also the railguns still needs a unique role since range bonus works so bad at least for battleships.
Signature Resolution? It's an overlooked possibility

I kinda like that idea. Larges are 400m, mediums are 125m. What if hybrids were somewhere in the 275m range? Seems like that would play well with their mediocre volley damage.


II'm sure this has been pointed out, but, whatever...

Decreasing signature resolution by x % is the same as increasing tracking by x %/
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#324 - 2011-11-09 09:58:13 UTC
I do remain sceptic on that even if both parameters influence the same outcome : dps
But even if that is 100% true you would still see at range where tracking is neglectible the signature resolution still plays an important part in hitting smaller ship classes.
The signature resolution has been put in game for balance purpose and as such railguns could easily get a slight advantage here as long it makes sense for Eve.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#325 - 2011-11-09 09:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Gypsio III wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

i only care about rails at this point; blasters are a lost cause.


I wish I could disagree with you. I renewed my subscription specifically to take part in the Blaster rework after canceling it over the microtransactions debacle. If balance (Hybrid buffs and gallente ship buffs) of some sort is not reached during this expansion I will cancel and wait again. I am not paying to play at a disadvantage.
So far it looks like the Matari-centric mindset at CCP is going to continue with small token changes being handed out here and there to the less deserving races.


It's trivial to make blasters work, it just requires a few nerfs. But CCP doesn't have the balls to nerf anything, hence the incapability of addressing the problem of intrusion of lasers and projectiles into blasters' and rails' niches.


Actually no, it requires specific changes(web bonuses or general rework of webs and scrams) to make blaster ships worth bringing to web range again. Blaster ships as it stands are similar bad at point blank like any other hull, they lack the ability to control the environment they fight in and the target they fight what is one of the key points to make ships useful in solo/small gang combat. Other ships easily do this with fighting outside of web/scram range or in the case of minmatar ships using neuts and her general flexibility for workarounds for close range pvp. You can nerf the rest all the way you want and you still have no reason to fly a blaster ship in the end.

The original Talos design was good, because it did address this point(slot layout and stats not so much, but nothingness). All the other buffs so far are more or less pointless, because they don't address the core problems(getting the ships in range and make it worth it once you are there, by giving you control, punch and the ability to win fights with it). However I agree that CCP lacks the balls to actually do this.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#326 - 2011-11-09 10:12:14 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I do remain sceptic on that even if both parameters influence the same outcome : dps
But even if that is 100% true you would still see at range where tracking is neglectible the signature resolution still plays an important part in hitting smaller ship classes.
The signature resolution has been put in game for balance purpose and as such railguns could easily get a slight advantage here as long it makes sense for Eve.


No, decreasing signature resolution by x % has the same effect as increasing tracking by x %.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#327 - 2011-11-09 10:21:56 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:


The original Talos design was good, because it did address this point(slot layout and stats not so much, but nothingness). All the other buffs so far are more or less pointless, because they don't address the core problems(getting the ships in range and make it worth it once you are there, by giving you control, punch and the ability to win fights with it). However I agree that CCP lacks the balls to actually do this.


I wasn't actually very keen on the 90% web on the Talos. I didn't see how it helped the Talos get to web range in the first place, and once there it had little damage advantage over the Tornado and Oracle. The 90% web didn't help with tracking - you'd still have had to slow down to apply your blaster DPS, at which point the Tornado is also applying its excessive close-range DPS to you.

The only thing that the 90% web really helped with was killing cruisers and frigates, but CCP is right to say that these ships should be vulnerable to small stuff. So it's a shame that they're keeping the Tornado's speed and falloff bonus.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#328 - 2011-11-09 10:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Kiev Duran wrote:

Thanks for pointing this out. The Rokh gets to deal 10% less damage per second with about 33% less volley damage than the next ship up (a ship that is considered so weak as to not be flown) for the glorious advantage of 10 extra km range? That's hardly worth those trade-offs. Caldari ships need to be re-evaluated to even be somewhat viable. When was the last time you saw someone flying Caldari into combat for something other than ECM (something that was considered the only advantage of Caldari right up until it got pummeled with the nerf bat) or POS bashing (an activity CCP acknowledges as being unfun)?

You have got to be joking.

I'm not trying to be rude, but seeing everything get buffed up around Caldari for about 5 years now has been extremely grating. The torpedo change, the Falcon nerf, almost every Caldari ship that's been introduced being sub-par or irrelevant, the introduction of explosion velocity. It's all added up and taken it's toll. Caldari is far and away the weakest race for any given combat scenario, outside of about two ships which play a support role instead of a direct combat role. Please fix Caldari.


I get where you are coming from Kiev, and totally recognise the frustration. I and many others would really want to see the Caldari Hybrid boats brought in line with other races. But I am actually okay with Caldari Hybrid doing the least amount of damage (somebody has to be last) but only if they had a far greater tank to slug it out fairly at a comparable level to Amarr, that way they would be balanced, but still unique in the game.

So, Caldari Hybrid boats do less damage, but survive longer = balance.

The Rokh, with only 6 mid slots, doesn't really have the ability to tank as well as it's Amarr equivalent (Abaddon), yet has the larger signature, slow speed, and low damage going against it too. If the tank was greater than Amarr (To make up for the signature!) then we'd have something, but it is far less than the Abaddon, with lower resists, with no mid slots left for things like scrams etc.

However, I am wary of making all ships so similar that it just becomes a cosmetic choice. There should be differences between the races.

When I see calls to make Gallente fly similar speeds to Minmitar I cringe. They don't need speed all the time, they just need speed bursts to get in range and use their mid slots.

I previously suggested Tactical Modules that could offer a temporary speed boost, but heck, it would be easier to have a new sort of MWD module that goes a LOT faster, but for FAR less time, and would need a cooldown on its use to avoid it being abused.

I hope something is done for Caldari Hybrid tanks, I would truly love to take Rokh's out in a fleet, but even with the Hybrid tweeks, it is going to be a very tough sell. Don't even get me started about the pathetic Basilisk tank compared to the Guardian and it's tiny signature.

It would also be great to see Gallente get balanced, through a speed burst mechanic.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#329 - 2011-11-09 10:22:40 UTC
But in a long range situation with a 400sig res cannon where your tracking is more than enough to keep up with a smaller target will you not benefit more from better sig res than better tracking that isn't needed?

Otherwise that must be a glitch in game mechanics...
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#330 - 2011-11-09 10:25:54 UTC
Kiev Duran wrote:


When was the last time you saw someone flying Caldari into combat for something other than ECM (something that was considered the only advantage of Caldari right up until it got pummeled with the nerf bat) or POS bashing (an activity CCP acknowledges as being unfun)?


REALLY?

Drake? The second most often used PVP ship? There is a reason we fit two caldari, two minmatar, one amarr, and one gallente to our jammers.

That aside: Drake, Manticore, Hookbill, Nighthawk, Chimera, Cerberus, Hawk, etc .

This poor Caldari ship isn't going to sail, the Caldari are some of THE most often used ships are there is a reason, they don't need buffing, lest we see even more drake roams of 20-50 drakes at a time.

Kiev Duran wrote:


Sniper HACs and BCs w/ best T1 ammo :

Zealot w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 380,4 dps (22,5+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1004 volley
Muninn w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 340,9 dps (22,5+21,875km), 0.0378125 rad/sec, 2815 volley
Deimos w/ 250mm Rail (2 MFS) - 355,3 dps (18+22,5km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1247 volley
Eagle w/ 250mm (3 MFS) - 319,6 dps (40,5+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1121 volley
Ferox w/ 250mm (3 MFS) - 306,9 dps (27+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1077 volley
Brutix w/ 250mm (1 MFS) - 332,7 dps (18+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec,1367 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 409,1 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3379 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (2 Gyro) - 363,9 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3198 volley
Harbinger w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 399,4 dps (15+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1401 volley

Okay, this is just comedic. The Ferox does 33% less damage per second than a similarly fit Hurricane with greater than 66% less volley damage? With a range difference of 6km? I knew the Ferox was severely underpowered, but I've never actually dug up the numbers before.

The Eagle is...lacking, the numbers above show that it either needs a DPS increase or a serious volley increase, but the real problems with the Eagle are the ship's speed, agility, and fitting.

This is ridiculous, CCP. Fix Caldari. If these numbers are correct, I can choose to try and contribute to a fight, and not actually matter, or I can choose to not be able to apply damage, because in the 20 - 30 seconds it takes my damage to reach a target the fight's over. Outside of ECM, there is no reason to bring Caldari into a combat scenario. This is bad design.


Again, you're looking at it the wrong way, compared to the other hybrid boats, you're exchanging 20-30 dps for 9-13KM in optimal range, easily a comparable trade. The only REAL outliar here is the insane numbers that the projectiles put out, not only do they get the best volley damage, but they get the highest dps, tracking thats just barely under rails, and greater usable range.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#331 - 2011-11-09 10:25:58 UTC
A cooldown on MWDs would be pretty epic - either that or just lock the MWDs in overheat mode permanently while giving it less penalties...
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#332 - 2011-11-09 10:28:57 UTC
In defense I did put 3 Gyro on the Muninn that might be a little much compared to the slots it has... But OMG the tracking and 2nd highest dps? You're right
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#333 - 2011-11-09 10:33:44 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Kiev Duran wrote:


When was the last time you saw someone flying Caldari into combat for something other than ECM (something that was considered the only advantage of Caldari right up until it got pummeled with the nerf bat) or POS bashing (an activity CCP acknowledges as being unfun)?


REALLY?

Drake? The second most often used PVP ship? There is a reason we fit two caldari, two minmatar, one amarr, and one gallente to our jammers.

That aside: Drake, Manticore, Hookbill, Nighthawk, Chimera, Cerberus, Hawk, etc .

This poor Caldari ship isn't going to sail, the Caldari are some of THE most often used ships are there is a reason, they don't need buffing, lest we see even more drake roams of 20-50 drakes at a time.




- Agreed with the sentiment and yeah - Drake lolz.

But Caldari Hybrid boats are a different matter entirely and are not balanced. When was the last time you saw a fleet of Rokh's? Or Eagles... or Ferox's. It just doesn't happen and there are good reasons for that. In relation to my earlier post about Caldari getting more Tank, it is the Hybrid caldari ships that need this to balance, NOT the Caldari missile boats.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#334 - 2011-11-09 10:42:33 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Kiev Duran wrote:


When was the last time you saw someone flying Caldari into combat for something other than ECM (something that was considered the only advantage of Caldari right up until it got pummeled with the nerf bat) or POS bashing (an activity CCP acknowledges as being unfun)?


REALLY?

Drake? The second most often used PVP ship? There is a reason we fit two caldari, two minmatar, one amarr, and one gallente to our jammers.

That aside: Drake, Manticore, Hookbill, Nighthawk, Chimera, Cerberus, Hawk, etc .



- Agreed with the sentiment and yeah - Drake lolz.

But Caldari Hybrid boats are a different matter entirely and are not balanced. When was the last time you saw a fleet of Rokh's? Or Eagles... or Ferox's. It just doesn't happen and there are good reasons for that. In relation to my earlier post about Caldari getting more Tank, it is the Hybrid caldari ships that need this to balance, NOT the Caldari missile boats.


Erm, you really sure about including the Nighthawk, Chimera and Cerberus on that list?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#335 - 2011-11-09 10:47:58 UTC
I have been calling for extra medslots for a long time on the gallente railboats... I must say though the only boat that really needs it is the Rokh. And to be honest the Rokh would benefit way more from having a 5% damage pr level instead of optimal bonus while to balance giving the Gallente a 5% increased ROF instead of their current damage bonuses on battleships.
The Moa and Ferox would love that bonus as well without in any way breaking game balance - and they will still have their best range fluff with Railguns being a little better ranged than others ...
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#336 - 2011-11-09 10:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Gypsio III wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:


The original Talos design was good, because it did address this point(slot layout and stats not so much, but nothingness). All the other buffs so far are more or less pointless, because they don't address the core problems(getting the ships in range and make it worth it once you are there, by giving you control, punch and the ability to win fights with it). However I agree that CCP lacks the balls to actually do this.


I wasn't actually very keen on the 90% web on the Talos. I didn't see how it helped the Talos get to web range in the first place, and once there it had little damage advantage over the Tornado and Oracle. The 90% web didn't help with tracking - you'd still have had to slow down to apply your blaster DPS, at which point the Tornado is also applying its excessive close-range DPS to you.

The only thing that the 90% web really helped with was killing cruisers and frigates, but CCP is right to say that these ships should be vulnerable to small stuff. So it's a shame that they're keeping the Tornado's speed and falloff bonus.


Well it was significant faster than other blaster hulls in this class and there is no reason to bring any of the other Tier 3 BCs to web range, with her weak tanks and the tracking of large guns. Ofc it would have lost to the Oracle or Tornado at point blank, this is why I stated that the concept was good, the implementation on the other hand not so much. I'm not even saying that if the intended role of the tier 3 is fleet support, being vulnerable against frigs and cruisers(what however will be mostly a non issue in gang and fleet use) is bad, just horrible one sided concept if we have weapons that do work in gang/fleet scenarios very good and others that don't.

I'm not even sad about making the Talos some sort of meh rail platform if CCP really want to apply her overall concept. I just did think, after 3 years, it was the closest to what I would have called a general useful blaster ship design(beside stupidly overpriced serpentis hulls that you see ten times more in Incursions as in pvp).
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2011-11-09 10:53:57 UTC


Tallest,

CCP, over the years, have nerfed Damps. You have nerfed webs. You nerfed all ships speed and acceleration and you buffed projectile falloff and laser optimal ranges.

Thats all water under the bridge. I am willing to give the game design team another chance. You just have to do one thing for me.

Get me in optimal. Thats it. Get me in optimal with a fighting chance to win against a like skilled opponent. Thats all any Gallente pilot wants.

Your efforts thus far are not doing much to get me in optimal. I am sad when I am not in optimal. I am happy only in the warm orange glow of my opponents melted wreck.

Make more changes to get me in optimal soon.
sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2011-11-09 11:15:24 UTC
I for one STOPPED PLAYING EVE mainly because everything i've been training from start became pretty useless. It is extremly demotivating when you train few months for gal ships ( t2 guns, bs lvl 5 etc ) and they are useless. Now i paid for month subscription for action price, because i was reading there are going to be big changes to hybrids, but i will probably cancel. (blasters) The time you need to get in range(if it is even possible), use up half a cap and take bilion dmg in process, sacrifice med for web to keep range. after getting in range another precious secs need to stop and alling somehow to be able to track (1on1 not prob because other cannt track either, but in group combat someone will be shooting at you, probably all... ).

After microscopic changes blasters are about to get and not adresing the fastest ship should have shortest range issue.(how the **** im going to kill min).
BLASTERS ARE STILL NOT WORTH IT AT ALL !!!
Selar Nox
#339 - 2011-11-09 11:52:56 UTC
How about a webifier range bonus on blaster boats (cruiser-size upwards), increasing with hull size (BSs bigger bonus than BCs, which get more than cruiser)? Not talking about 5%, more something like doubling or tripling the range. So we get fired at while "crossing the gap" but actually get a chance to arrive over there...

Just a thought that crossed my mind...
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2011-11-09 11:59:41 UTC
Selar Nox wrote:
How about a webifier range bonus on blaster boats (cruiser-size upwards), increasing with hull size (BSs bigger bonus than BCs, which get more than cruiser)? Not talking about 5%, more something like doubling or tripling the range. So we get fired at while "crossing the gap" but actually get a chance to arrive over there...

Just a thought that crossed my mind...


1) we would have to give up a tracking or damage bonus of some sort to get this bonus. Both of which are vital. (Unless its on a worthless active armor ship then its alright)

2) This would infringe upon the precious snowflake Matari's territory and we would not want that!