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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Cunane Jeran
#301 - 2011-11-09 02:50:25 UTC
These new changes are fantastic, the old changes had put us in a good place, but I honestly believe this is now really closed down the gap between projectiles and hybrids a bit more while putting us square on par with lasers.

Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2011-11-09 02:53:01 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:

Sniper HACs and BCs w/ best T1 ammo :

Zealot w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 380,4 dps (22,5+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1004 volley
Muninn w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 340,9 dps (22,5+21,875km), 0.0378125 rad/sec, 2815 volley
Deimos w/ 250mm Rail (2 MFS) - 355,3 dps (18+22,5km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1247 volley
Brutix w/ 250mm (1 MFS) - 332,7 dps (18+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec,1367 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 409,1 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3379 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (2 Gyro) - 363,9 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3198 volley
Harbinger w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 399,4 dps (15+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1401 volley

Looks pretty balanced on the medium long ranged weapons too...

Pinky


If by balanced you mean still sucking at tracking and still not putting out dps and still not having a range advantage then you are correct sir.


tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#303 - 2011-11-09 02:56:57 UTC
as much as i appreciate your testing pinky, fitting dmg mods for testing is not the way to go - they're ment as extra fitting option, not a must and not a default.

i know many ppl fit them by default, but for comparing weapons the bare fit witout any ( and certainly nor multiple dmg mods) is not helpfull...just use the base dmg for the start...
Kiev Duran
Holey Amarrian Inquisition
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#304 - 2011-11-09 03:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiev Duran
Pinky Denmark wrote:

All comparisons w/ best T1 ammo :

Abaddon w/ Tacyons (2 HS) - 657,3 dps (33km+25km) +75m3 drones, 0.01740 rad/sec, 4811 volley
Abaddon w/ Mega Beam (2 HS) - 608,6 dps (30km+20km) +75m3 drones, 0.01914 rad/sec, 3012 volley
Maelstrom w/1400mm Artillery (3 gyro) - 581,9 dps (30km+43,75km) + 100m3 drones, 0.01125 rad/sec, 9648 volley
Hyperion w/425mm Railgun (2 MFS) - 566,8 dps (36km+30km) + 100m3 drones, 0.01203 rad/sec, 3174 volley
Rokh w/425mm Railgun (3MFS) - 509,9 dps (54km+30km) + 50m3 drones, 0.01203 rad/sec, 2682 volley
Abaddon w/1400mm Artillery (3 Gyro) - 436,4 dps (30km+43,75km) + 75m3 drones, 0.01125 rad/sec, 9648 volley

DPS : Abaddon > Maelstrom > Hyperion > Rokh
Volley : Maelstrom > Abaddon > Hyperion > Rokh
Tracking : Abaddon > Hyperion > Rokh > Maelstrom
Range : Rokh > Hyperion > Maelstrom > Abaddon


Thanks for pointing this out. The Rokh gets to deal 10% less damage per second with about 33% less volley damage than the next ship up (a ship that is considered so weak as to not be flown) for the glorious advantage of 10 extra km range? That's hardly worth those trade-offs. Caldari ships need to be re-evaluated to even be somewhat viable. When was the last time you saw someone flying Caldari into combat for something other than ECM (something that was considered the only advantage of Caldari right up until it got pummeled with the nerf bat) or POS bashing (an activity CCP acknowledges as being unfun)?

Pinky Denmark wrote:


Sniper HACs and BCs w/ best T1 ammo :

Zealot w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 380,4 dps (22,5+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1004 volley
Muninn w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 340,9 dps (22,5+21,875km), 0.0378125 rad/sec, 2815 volley
Deimos w/ 250mm Rail (2 MFS) - 355,3 dps (18+22,5km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1247 volley
Eagle w/ 250mm (3 MFS) - 319,6 dps (40,5+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1121 volley
Ferox w/ 250mm (3 MFS) - 306,9 dps (27+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec, 1077 volley
Brutix w/ 250mm (1 MFS) - 332,7 dps (18+15km), 0.02875 rad/sec,1367 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (3 Gyro) - 409,1 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3379 volley
Hurricane w/ 720mm Arty (2 Gyro) - 363,9 dps (15+21,875km), 0.0275 rad/sec, 3198 volley
Harbinger w/ Heavy beam (2 HS) - 399,4 dps (15+10km), 0.04125 rad/sec, 1401 volley


Okay, this is just comedic. The Ferox does 33% less damage per second than a similarly fit Hurricane with greater than 66% less volley damage? With a range difference of 6km? I knew the Ferox was severely underpowered, but I've never actually dug up the numbers before.

The Eagle is...lacking, the numbers above show that it either needs a DPS increase or a serious volley increase, but the real problems with the Eagle are the ship's speed, agility, and fitting.

This is ridiculous, CCP. Fix Caldari. If these numbers are correct, I can choose to try and contribute to a fight, and not actually matter, or I can choose to not be able to apply damage, because in the 20 - 30 seconds it takes my damage to reach a target the fight's over. Outside of ECM, there is no reason to bring Caldari into a combat scenario. This is bad design.

Pinky Denmark wrote:

Looks pretty balanced on the medium long ranged weapons too...

Pinky


You have got to be joking.

I'm not trying to be rude, but seeing everything get buffed up around Caldari for about 5 years now has been extremely grating. The torpedo change, the Falcon nerf, almost every Caldari ship that's been introduced being sub-par or irrelevant, the introduction of explosion velocity. It's all added up and taken it's toll. Caldari is far and away the weakest race for any given combat scenario, outside of about two ships which play a support role instead of a direct combat role. Please fix Caldari.
Daraja
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2011-11-09 03:22:50 UTC
Hybrid ammo in general still needs to be reviewed and balanced against the rest. It needs it's own gimmick.

Perhaps this should go in a proposal thready instead, but I'll place it here for now.

Since hybrid turrets have a relatively balanced falloff and optimal, why not give variety on ammo as well to penalize by choice.

Example (based on Antimatter damage)
-50% optimal, 0% falloff, +25% tracking
-25% optimal, -25% falloff, 0% tracking
0% optimal, -50% falloff, -25% tracking

All ammo would have the same overall damage, but you might tweak the kinetic vs thermal distributions.

Take in a step higher and maybe we can introduce additional penalties for added bonus
(Based on Lead Charge)
-50% optmal, +50% falloff, +25% tracking.
0%, 0%, 0%
+50%, -50%, -25%.



Kiev Duran
Holey Amarrian Inquisition
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#306 - 2011-11-09 03:27:09 UTC
Daraja wrote:
Hybrid ammo in general still needs to be reviewed and balanced against the rest. It needs it's own gimmick.

Perhaps this should go in a proposal thready instead, but I'll place it here for now.

Since hybrid turrets have a relatively balanced falloff and optimal, why not give variety on ammo as well to penalize by choice.

Example (based on Antimatter damage)
-50% optimal, 0% falloff, +25% tracking
-25% optimal, -25% falloff, 0% tracking
0% optimal, -50% falloff, -25% tracking

All ammo would have the same overall damage, but you might tweak the kinetic vs thermal distributions.

Take in a step higher and maybe we can introduce additional penalties for added bonus
(Based on Lead Charge)
-50% optmal, +50% falloff, +25% tracking.
0%, 0%, 0%
+50%, -50%, -25%.





This could actually be an elegant way to fix railguns, provided the breakdowns extended to faction and T2 ammo. Still needs some work, but it's a good place to start.
Ephiel
Royal Search and Recovery Institute
#307 - 2011-11-09 03:42:33 UTC
Like the changes so far!

A little Side note on Hybrids - doesn't fit the stats exactly but its something pretty important in PvP and easy to fix.
The Size of the Hybrid Ammunition icons if loaded in your guns are just a bit too big. It covers most of the overheat indicator. Check out Medium and Large Antimatter for example.

If you turn on overheat you can only see the the first 15% of the Bar and then it gets covered by the Ammunition Icons. It will become visible again at about 80% but then its mostly to late in hectic combat to turn off the overheat. Burned many many Blasters this way and had too many expensive enemy ships surviving in structure :/

please resize the icons a little bit. Thanks!
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2011-11-09 03:43:20 UTC
Daraja wrote:
Hybrid ammo in general still needs to be reviewed and balanced against the rest. It needs it's own gimmick.

Perhaps this should go in a proposal thready instead, but I'll place it here for now.

Since hybrid turrets have a relatively balanced falloff and optimal, why not give variety on ammo as well to penalize by choice.

Example (based on Antimatter damage)
-50% optimal, 0% falloff, +25% tracking
-25% optimal, -25% falloff, 0% tracking
0% optimal, -50% falloff, -25% tracking

All ammo would have the same overall damage, but you might tweak the kinetic vs thermal distributions.

Take in a step higher and maybe we can introduce additional penalties for added bonus
(Based on Lead Charge)
-50% optmal, +50% falloff, +25% tracking.
0%, 0%, 0%
+50%, -50%, -25%.




i am still hoping they will consider this. i only care about rails at this point; blasters are a lost cause.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2011-11-09 04:01:58 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:

i only care about rails at this point; blasters are a lost cause.


I wish I could disagree with you. I renewed my subscription specifically to take part in the Blaster rework after canceling it over the microtransactions debacle. If balance (Hybrid buffs and gallente ship buffs) of some sort is not reached during this expansion I will cancel and wait again. I am not paying to play at a disadvantage.
So far it looks like the Matari-centric mindset at CCP is going to continue with small token changes being handed out here and there to the less deserving races.
Franklen
Tactical Support Solutions Inc.
#310 - 2011-11-09 04:04:35 UTC
Remove the tracking penalty from Void ammo. Replace it with a penalty to the WEAPON'S sig radius. Give Null ammo more range.
Nataly Fynolds
#311 - 2011-11-09 04:36:57 UTC
Things that should be looked into:

Scorch and barrage increase their effective weapon range by about 40%, null only by 25%. That should be brought in line.

Tracking computers and enhancers increase falloff twice as much as optimal, when they should increase them by the same amount.

This would bringt blaster and autocannon ranges closer together so the blaster has a slightly better chance to fight back when getting kited.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2011-11-09 04:49:32 UTC
Nataly Fynolds wrote:

This would bringt blaster and autocannon ranges closer together so the blaster is a poor copy of an autocannon.


Fixed that for you.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#313 - 2011-11-09 05:05:39 UTC
are these changes in addition to the previous ones posted or instead?
Nataly Fynolds
#314 - 2011-11-09 06:01:53 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Nataly Fynolds wrote:

This would bringt blaster and autocannon ranges closer together so the blaster is a poor copy of an autocannon.


Fixed that for you.


The basic range from autocannons is *still* considerably higher than blasters.

The different T2 ammo and optimal/falloff on tracking mods bring it out of line.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#315 - 2011-11-09 06:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
The latest update is starting to point on the right direction, way to go CCP.

The reload time reduction improves DPS but is also a penalty since cap usage increases. Im not sure if this should be compensated with improved cap usage (or more cap on hybrid platforms). Maybe cap usage reduction on selected hybrid ammo (the ones meant to be used close range)?

Rails still suck. They fail at DPS and they fail at volley, for less than 20% advantage in range on most cases. I would say, give 5% increase damage for *all* hybrids to bring rails volley damage closer to decent numbers, or give it a tad over more RoF (which, again, is also a penalty since means increased cap usage).

A increased RoF would play particularly well with Caldari's active shield tanking ships, since that means you would have to choose between long range snipping or tank, making snipers rely even more on support and ECM, but giving superior range with good DPS (instead of having the worst DPS for its range, like today).
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#316 - 2011-11-09 06:16:45 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.


I dont know if that is the solution, but its damn fine anyway. Thank you.
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2011-11-09 06:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Miriiah
Rails are still abit meh, should get another 5% damage buff atleast imo

Was gonna say they should have a bigger clip size asell until they changed the reload time to 5sec, that made their clip size ok(And that's a change I'm happy to see all hybrids get)
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#318 - 2011-11-09 06:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Nemesor wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

i only care about rails at this point; blasters are a lost cause.


I wish I could disagree with you. I renewed my subscription specifically to take part in the Blaster rework after canceling it over the microtransactions debacle. If balance (Hybrid buffs and gallente ship buffs) of some sort is not reached during this expansion I will cancel and wait again. I am not paying to play at a disadvantage.
So far it looks like the Matari-centric mindset at CCP is going to continue with small token changes being handed out here and there to the less deserving races.


we're in the exact same boat. i resubbed cuz Gallente have my favourite ships. and why should 20% of the combat ships in game be useless? i want to be able to use my Deimos like people have been using the Zealot. Why the hell not? i cannot connect with any other race's ships for some reason (even though i've most of them trained up)...if i cant play Gall properly, wont play at all heh.

reason #2 FW, reason #3 AF's. im willing to continue my sub if hybrids and Gall ships are balanced properly. i dont mind waiting a little bit longer for 2 & 3, but the hybrid buff must be successful for Winter expansion in my eyes.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#319 - 2011-11-09 06:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
are these changes in addition to the previous ones posted or instead?



He said in addition. So, i think that totals:

Various cpu reductions
-12.5% PG requirements
-30% cap use for all turrets
+20% blaster tracking
+5% blaster damage
+15% rail damage
+5% rail tracking.

Smaller ammo
- 5 secs of reload time.

A damn fine start, IMHO. I presume they wont do tge ship based changes until the next round of updates, but this is a real effort by CCP. Lets give it a chance. The ships will be the ultimate solution, for good or ill.

And I 3 resubbed because I heard about FW and Gallente changes. I have flown on rifter in my career, but all of my other ship training is in Gallente. GO GO CCP!
Kozmic
State War Academy
Caldari State
#320 - 2011-11-09 09:19:48 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.


CCP Tallest best Tallest.