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I'd like to see tags4faction the way tags4sec works
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Zircon Dasher
#41 - 2013-06-14 21:51:14 UTC
Elliavir wrote:

Have you considered having 2 characters to play on either side of the loyalties fence, and then a very neutral alt to handle trades and hauling? With the new dual-training thing for PLEX, it's a bit more convenient.

As other folks have noted - you can turn down missions that involve shooting at other factions, or do distribution missions. But that does limit your play options, which seems to be what you don't want. So just spread it out over multiple characters?


Why should people be forced to have alts?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#42 - 2013-06-14 21:51:41 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Zak Matrix wrote:
Try avoiding missions where you have to shoot faction navies, killing those faction ships hits your standing a lot. Hits from storyline missions are minimal compared to that.

And you can always train diplomacy, and go through the faction standing repair plan.


yea i know, for the missions thats a possibility but for faction warfare? basically i can not take part in that because of that mechanic, at some point it takes far too long to get the standing up again, the repair plan also takes ages

i want to be able to try out everything, but with all the time put into the character if feels like I don't want to screw the standing too much because it could lock me out of big areas of the map, it just does not feel right

This is why many have alts.

The trading/ hauling alt does few missions, or avoids the faction kill missions.

Other alts allow their standings to crash with some factions, and just do not go there.

Between all your alts you can try it all.


yea i know, if it would not take so much time to train up all the alts no problem, and just personally i would like to play with just one character, for me the immersion to the game is better if i play just one person in the game, i would prefer to be able in some way without big drawbacks to play all i want with just this one, but if there are no changes i might endup playing my alts as well

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#43 - 2013-06-14 21:56:30 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Elliavir wrote:

Have you considered having 2 characters to play on either side of the loyalties fence, and then a very neutral alt to handle trades and hauling? With the new dual-training thing for PLEX, it's a bit more convenient.

As other folks have noted - you can turn down missions that involve shooting at other factions, or do distribution missions. But that does limit your play options, which seems to be what you don't want. So just spread it out over multiple characters?


Why should people be forced to have alts?



I swear I wasn't pointing my blaster at anyone's head when I wrote that.

Part of the charm of EVE, for many, is that in-game actions have in-game consequences... both from other players and from the game itself. One could just as easily ask why people should be forced to give up the rewards and drawbacks of playing loyal faction citizens in order to accommodate someone else disliking those consequences.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#44 - 2013-06-14 21:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Elliavir wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Elliavir wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
honestly this just hinders you to play the game like you want to play it, it feels like a cage put on the endless possibilities the game has to offer, for me it feels like the biggest drawback


Why? Is it the working up from nonfactor to beloved with factions that you don't like - or the fact that you wind up picking sides by what you do - or ???


the problem is if i run some missions the standings go down too fast with the other factions, and if it goes too low I'm unble to access their space anymore as the npc navy will attack me, however i need to go around as I'm trading a lot, basically i wanto to run missions and do all stuff in the game but when it hinders my trading it blocks me from doing it...



I find the rep changes immersive (it wouldn't make sense to me to be shooting up Amarr ships one day, and welcomed with cookies and mission offers in their spece the next). And I haven't (yet) really felt the urge to try out Amarr or Caldari missions - I'm happy with Gallente and Minmatar love.

However, I do have an alt who handles my trading - because I am really not loved in half of Empire space.

Have you considered having 2 characters to play on either side of the loyalties fence, and then a very neutral alt to handle trades and hauling? With the new dual-training thing for PLEX, it's a bit more convenient.

As other folks have noted - you can turn down missions that involve shooting at other factions, or do distribution missions. But that does limit your play options, which seems to be what you don't want. So just spread it out over multiple characters?


yea sure i thought about the alts, the training time for them seems to be the biggest drawback on that, and i would prefer to be just one character in the game, because it would feel better, i think its kind of fancy if people talk to me in the game and then they say hey by the way this is my alt here is my main, for me its cooler if you just play with one person in a game like this one... but like mentioned in another comment if there are no changes to this mechanic i might endup playing more with alts as well, but i would prefer just to play with one...

the consequences are fine, but there should just be a way to pay that consequences down with ISK or make it possible to go the other way a bit faster with tags or something, at the moment the consequences block you out of areas for too long in my opinion

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#45 - 2013-06-14 22:15:16 UTC
EvE was pretty much designed with the intentions of it being extraordinarily difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to be able to do absolutely everything on a single character. You can, in fact, have +9.99 standings with all the empires, as well as all the pirates, but it will be a long and arduous journey.

What you're asking is, at the most basic level, akin to having to only train a single weapons system to gain access to all of them; after all, if you train one, you aren't training another without stopping the current training path. Why should you be "locked out" of other weapons systems?

Faction standings are the same: Having perfect (or near-perfect, considering the fun rounding actions that go on) is very much doable: just think of it as if you were cross-training weapons systems or racial ships.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-06-14 22:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Smohq Anmirorz
Oggat wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Oggat wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
This argument sounds really familiar.

Like REALLY familiar.

Like tags4sec familiar.

Since we already have a tag4standing mechanic in place the only change necessary would be to remove the "one-time" use restriction on data centers.


yes i think that would help, CCP implemented the new tag4sec as well because they did notice that some players decided to leave the game because their character was locked out of high sec, if the data centers could be used more often that would be an ideal and easy sollution I think


No it wouldn't.
Data Center standings still impact opposition factions.

The system is designed to be whack-a-mole. All repeatable Data Center's would do is remove mission grind.


yea thats right the interaction of the standings is something I'm not so excited about as well :D


Don't use Navy corps if what you are trying to obtain is access to 4 racial corps, not the full races. You won't get access to high sec POS or even clones but you can get a corp in each nation to where you can run 4's anywhere.



Faction navies can and do give non-faction missions and can be used to gain the standings you want/need.
You can get access to POS's without any faction navies shooting at you. That's easy.
Clones? Did they change something? I thought it was just standings with a NPC corp, which doesn't go down.

It is more than possible, it is what my mission-running character has done. Currently he has unmodified standings of 6.98, 4.40, 4.05 and -1.02 for the big four. Modified with skills makes them all positive.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#47 - 2013-06-14 22:18:55 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
EvE was pretty much designed with the intentions of it being extraordinarily difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to be able to do absolutely everything on a single character. You can, in fact, have +9.99 standings with all the empires, as well as all the pirates, but it will be a long and arduous journey.

What you're asking is, at the most basic level, akin to having to only train a single weapons system to gain access to all of them; after all, if you train one, you aren't training another without stopping the current training path. Why should you be "locked out" of other weapons systems?

Faction standings are the same: Having perfect (or near-perfect, considering the fun rounding actions that go on) is very much doable: just think of it as if you were cross-training weapons systems or racial ships.


how should that be doable? if my standing goes up with one faction, others go down automatically, it is told on the wiki that the +9 like you say is not possible with all factions because of that...

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-06-14 22:20:47 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
honestly this just hinders you to play the game like you want to play it, it feels like a cage put on the endless possibilities the game has to offer, for me it feels like the biggest drawback


You HAVE trained diplomacy, yes?
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-06-14 22:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Smohq Anmirorz
Harry Forever wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
EvE was pretty much designed with the intentions of it being extraordinarily difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to be able to do absolutely everything on a single character. You can, in fact, have +9.99 standings with all the empires, as well as all the pirates, but it will be a long and arduous journey.

What you're asking is, at the most basic level, akin to having to only train a single weapons system to gain access to all of them; after all, if you train one, you aren't training another without stopping the current training path. Why should you be "locked out" of other weapons systems?

Faction standings are the same: Having perfect (or near-perfect, considering the fun rounding actions that go on) is very much doable: just think of it as if you were cross-training weapons systems or racial ships.


how should that be doable? if my standing goes up with one faction, others go down automatically, it is told on the wiki that the +9 like you say is not possible with all factions because of that...


Go to your character sheet. Click on 'standings'. Right-click on one of the factions symbols and choose 'show transactions'. Now go to the opposite faction and do the same thing. Compare the missions and note the 'derived modification'.

What you should find is that the numbers don't balance, they are skewed towards making the faction standings positive if you keep bringing each one up when it gets too low.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#50 - 2013-06-14 22:25:03 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
honestly this just hinders you to play the game like you want to play it, it feels like a cage put on the endless possibilities the game has to offer, for me it feels like the biggest drawback


You HAVE trained diplomacy, yes?


yea i trained those skills and for sure they help, but when i do some missions the hit on the standing seems to be too hard although i got those skills, maybe i need to dig into that a bit more and try, just don't want to screw it up so i can't bring it back up again

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Zircon Dasher
#51 - 2013-06-14 22:25:48 UTC
Elliavir wrote:
I swear I wasn't pointing my blaster at anyone's head when I wrote that.

Part of the charm of EVE, for many, is that in-game actions have in-game consequences... both from other players and from the game itself. One could just as easily ask why people should be forced to give up the rewards and drawbacks of playing loyal faction citizens in order to accommodate someone else disliking those consequences.


I agree that there should be consequences thus why people would have to find the tags or pay for them just like the sec tags.

While RP reasons are good for some things, I am not sure they are great at justifying locking people out of game content just because they do not want to have an alt....just like people in low sec should not have to have a hauler alt/Incursion alt or be barred from participating in highsec wars.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Ifly Uwalk
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-06-14 22:29:16 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
EvE was pretty much designed with the intentions of it being extraordinarily difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to be able to do absolutely everything on a single character. You can, in fact, have +9.99 standings with all the empires, as well as all the pirates, but it will be a long and arduous journey.

What you're asking is, at the most basic level, akin to having to only train a single weapons system to gain access to all of them; after all, if you train one, you aren't training another without stopping the current training path. Why should you be "locked out" of other weapons systems?

Faction standings are the same: Having perfect (or near-perfect, considering the fun rounding actions that go on) is very much doable: just think of it as if you were cross-training weapons systems or racial ships.


how should that be doable? if my standing goes up with one faction, others go down automatically, it is told on the wiki that the +9 like you say is not possible with all factions because of that...

It is in fact possible, just very time-consuming, as Winter pointed out. What you do is

... oh wait, you blocked me - nvm.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#53 - 2013-06-14 22:30:01 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
EvE was pretty much designed with the intentions of it being extraordinarily difficult (if not impossible, in some cases) to be able to do absolutely everything on a single character. You can, in fact, have +9.99 standings with all the empires, as well as all the pirates, but it will be a long and arduous journey.

What you're asking is, at the most basic level, akin to having to only train a single weapons system to gain access to all of them; after all, if you train one, you aren't training another without stopping the current training path. Why should you be "locked out" of other weapons systems?

Faction standings are the same: Having perfect (or near-perfect, considering the fun rounding actions that go on) is very much doable: just think of it as if you were cross-training weapons systems or racial ships.


how should that be doable? if my standing goes up with one faction, others go down automatically, it is told on the wiki that the +9 like you say is not possible with all factions because of that...


Go to your character sheet. Click on 'standings'. Right-click on one of the factions symbols and choose 'show transactions'. Now go to the opposite faction and do the same thing. Compare the missions and note the 'derived modification'.

What you should find is that the numbers don't balance, they are skewed towards making the faction standings positive if you keep bringing each one up when it gets too low.


i dig into that a bit more, for me I did have the feeling that it was going down faster as it would go up, therefore bringing them all up seemed to be impossible not screwing the opposite faction standings

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Zircon Dasher
#54 - 2013-06-14 22:42:37 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:

What you're asking is, at the most basic level, akin to having to only train a single weapons system to gain access to all of them; after all, if you train one, you aren't training another without stopping the current training path. Why should you be "locked out" of other weapons systems?

Faction standings are the same: Having perfect (or near-perfect, considering the fun rounding actions that go on) is very much doable: just think of it as if you were cross-training weapons systems or racial ships.


That is a pretty terrible analogy since training projectiles does not decrease the SP one has in lasers in the short term.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Oggat
The Adam's Family
#55 - 2013-06-15 02:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Oggat
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Faction navies can and do give non-faction missions and can be used to gain the standings you want/need.
You can get access to POS's without any faction navies shooting at you. That's easy.
Clones? Did they change something? I thought it was just standings with a NPC corp, which doesn't go down.

It is more than possible, it is what my mission-running character has done. Currently he has unmodified standings of 6.98, 4.40, 4.05 and -1.02 for the big four. Modified with skills makes them all positive.


Many tertiary corps don't have cloning facilities. Most in fact.
Yes, you can cherry pick navy missions and get through it but you will take far longer in the end from 4 hr down times between declines.

Like so many things in EVE, what they say and what they mean are as far apart as stars.

Oh and faction navy shooting at you? I meant putting a POS in HS. 5.00 to 7.00 with an empire is off the grid if you want to keep the other nations where you can run level 4 missions. Yes, again you 'could' do it, if you wanted to alternate races and run missions in a marathon method for 5 or 6 years.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-06-15 04:56:07 UTC
Oggat wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Faction navies can and do give non-faction missions and can be used to gain the standings you want/need.
You can get access to POS's without any faction navies shooting at you. That's easy.
Clones? Did they change something? I thought it was just standings with a NPC corp, which doesn't go down.

It is more than possible, it is what my mission-running character has done. Currently he has unmodified standings of 6.98, 4.40, 4.05 and -1.02 for the big four. Modified with skills makes them all positive.


Many tertiary corps don't have cloning facilities. Most in fact.
Yes, you can cherry pick navy missions and get through it but you will take far longer in the end from 4 hr down times between declines.

Like so many things in EVE, what they say and what they mean are as far apart as stars.

Oh and faction navy shooting at you? I meant putting a POS in HS. 5.00 to 7.00 with an empire is off the grid if you want to keep the other nations where you can run level 4 missions. Yes, again you 'could' do it, if you wanted to alternate races and run missions in a marathon method for 5 or 6 years.


But navy agents are more abundant, so it's a trade-off. You decline certain missions, go to another agent when you can't get one you want. And they usually have more lvl 4 agents, so they're the first corps I go to.

And I'm saying you can put a POS in HS without being shot at by other factions. Because I have already done that. Again, I have a character with 6.98, 4.40, 4.05 and -1.02 standings. I can put a POS up in hi-sec. I can visit all the empire quadrants without being shot at. If running missions is your thing, it's not that hard to do.
Seetesh
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-06-15 07:23:52 UTC
So who else is up for a war dec ? Lol

CCP really lowered the bar when they allowed this player to come into the game and troll it.

In reference to my poor social skills; true that's probably related to me being a bit of a a** h***. That aside I shall come and relieve you of your missioning dilemma and the problems you face with standings.

P.S. Don't insult this game, it works perfectly fine.
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-06-15 07:39:02 UTC
Your suggestion would completely wipe out all lore in Eve. If anything I think factions should want to kill members of opposing races from start, begin at neg 10 with the two opposing factions. I recall the countless orcs I killed in everquest so the freeport guards wouldn't kill me, it was very fun to work on faction gain-gave another dimension to the game rather than just kill X because its there.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#59 - 2013-06-15 07:50:43 UTC
Kara Vix wrote:
Your suggestion would completely wipe out all lore in Eve. If anything I think factions should want to kill members of opposing races from start, begin at neg 10 with the two opposing factions. I recall the countless orcs I killed in everquest so the freeport guards wouldn't kill me, it was very fun to work on faction gain-gave another dimension to the game rather than just kill X because its there.


yes i agree that there might need to be some consequences, however i think there should be a better way to fight your way out of the bad standings, maybe with paying down with ISK or with tags, at the moment it seems that you can get stuck with a bad standing to the factions forever, and in addition to that, the standings go down too fast in my opinion, just run a view missions and had -2 at some already, if i would join factional warfare just for some time i would lock me out of the opponent territory for ages

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-06-15 08:00:10 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
Your suggestion would completely wipe out all lore in Eve. If anything I think factions should want to kill members of opposing races from start, begin at neg 10 with the two opposing factions. I recall the countless orcs I killed in everquest so the freeport guards wouldn't kill me, it was very fun to work on faction gain-gave another dimension to the game rather than just kill X because its there.


yes i agree that there might need to be some consequences, however i think there should be a better way to fight your way out of the bad standings, maybe with paying down with ISK or with tags, at the moment it seems that you can get stuck with a bad standing to the factions forever, and in addition to that, the standings go down too fast in my opinion, just run a view missions and had -2 at some already, if i would join factional warfare just for some time i would lock me out of the opponent territory for ages


Well you sound like you want absolutely no consequences for actions in this game, and this is a game where every little thing has unseen consequences that can someday get you podded. You have to either accept that Eve is an intentionally harsh universe and has rewards for its harshness or move on, though I would prefer you to stay and learn how to balance faction standings-hate to see people get hung up on the little things and leave. I currently am hated by Amarr (I can't help it-I love blowing up their shinies) but I have Amarr agents in Minmatar space for whom I can mission to repair standings. Just don't go so low in standing that you can't work for an agent and its easy to balance.