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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
#61 - 2011-11-05 09:17:43 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Hyperion should be completely re-tasked. Even mission runners don't make use of it's tanking bonus.


Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I do. I love My mission Hype.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-11-05 12:28:01 UTC
Autonomous Monster wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Hyperion should be completely re-tasked. Even mission runners don't make use of it's tanking bonus.


Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I do. I love My mission Hype.


I'm not sure because I don't fly gallente, but I think what Monster meant is that while, ofc, you can find somebody flying just about anything, there are far more efficient ways to spend money for ratting/missioning.
IE: You could probably rat decently in a rail rokh or a cruise scorpion, but there are better ships, with similar skill requirements, for that niche.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#63 - 2011-11-05 13:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
i was playing around with rails last night and honestly... i like what you have done with javilin... but its not enough...

Rails need a base boost to thier tracking (i am still hopping for at a min 30%)

and they still need about 5% more base damage and increased rate of fire of 15%... reduce the cap activation by another 40% and we should have a weapons platform that can actually do damage and be worth fiting...

and i still stand by my suggestion to drop the optimal range bonus its useless... snipping past 150km is pointless and optimal range bonus on the shortest ranged weapons is also pointless...

but a rate of fire bonus will increase dps by 33%

Which in turn would make Caldari hybrids higher DPS while Gallente will be higher alpha... its a good trade off IMO...

Plus blasters are not good enough... Null needs more of a range bonus (make it so they can shoot out to kitting range in heavy falloff)

plus blasters still need about 20-30% more tracking to make up for the loss of the signature bloom from an active MWD...

and i still stand by the fact that there needs to be an alpha boost... i want 50% with a reduced rate of fire of 30%...

blasters needs to do OMFG damage when you get close and each hit should be a sledge hammer to the face with death spikes...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Joelleaveek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2011-11-05 14:01:54 UTC
The hybrid changes are ok. Gallente ships need to be faster though. Fastest in the game. Otherwise you still wont be able to catch your target.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-11-05 14:25:41 UTC
looks like there's a consensus among players. Tallest, i hope you can use the feedback to massively buff blasters, rails, ships and hybrid ammo for the next version of SiSi.
sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2011-11-05 14:33:00 UTC
some kind of solution to all this could be some sort of RUSH ABILITY. Something like short range warp with cooldown like allready proposed. I think it is really a natural way to go, as in every EVERY single multiplayer game you can think of, melee classes have some sort of this ability. and 3km optimal is a melee in space:P -seriously only the fact that some sort of rush is in everygame talks for it self .

Dunno why are you thinking in terms like hmm i buff a little of this and little of that and it should be fine while the whole concept in general is flaud, correct is : THE FASTEST SHIPS SHOULD HAVE THE SHORTEST RANGE WEAPONS -also very logical, so either switch galente with min in speed ( simply from now on galente is known as a fastest race ) or switch weapon systems ( as they are -hybrids do min and projectiles to galente, or just switch they range - from now on autocannons will be known as shortest range uberdamagers ) I know ccp made up they race profiles and want to stick to them ( min fastest etc ) but they simply made a bad combination with weapon systems, sipmle switching (with some minor changes) would be ok.

In terms of dmg in general there should be considered some basic equation:
short range ship vs long range ship:
they both should destroy eachother at the same time, and the short range ship should have that more dmg than long range so when it comes to range(and it should be able somehow), it will catch up with damage dealt until the point od both destroying each other.

For example:
long range ship: 10000 hp, 200 dps, 40km range, 500m/s speed
short range ship: with also 10000 hp, it means it will take 50 sec for long range to destroy it, and thats how long it should take the short range ship to get in range and destroy the long r. one. (asuming that the long range is running away that any smart pilot would do). with 20 km range it needs to cover distance of 20 km and kill it in 50sec. So you can set the speed and dmg as you want:
for example 1500m/s speed (-500 because long r ship is running from you) so it will take you 20 sec to get in range, and than 333 DPS, it it wil take 30 sec to kill long range ship - together 50s and both ships are destroyed. OR 1000ms, so you will get in range in 40 sec and 1000dps sou you will kill each other.

It is of course somewhat simplyfied, but this rule should allways be preserved. SO systems are balanced and the choice od ship is simply a players preference, not that 1 is just stronger than other. Now mins are faster and dont need that range as galente - evidently broken.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#67 - 2011-11-05 14:44:40 UTC
For Blasters it is a complete failure.

Blasters get what? 10% more damage then autocannons, maybe 5% more then pulse lasers and are still range crippled. A Tornado for example has no problems hitting something at 70km range and the Talos struggles with 25km.

Either give the blasters a range that can at least compete with other races turrets or give them a damage that really makes up for all the drawbacks they have.

The only role the Talos has now is as a suicide ganker, awesome. Ugh

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#68 - 2011-11-05 14:51:08 UTC
did a bit of testing with the brutix now. it's pretty amazing if you put isk into it. put reps including resists & resist rigs. then drop in some rep implants and a pill you got an in your face repping crazy machine. with the hybrid changes i can slap on ion blasters on this boat. it worked very well and I was very impressed with it.

as for the sniping gangs we will be running into i allready got a counter for them >:)
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-05 15:21:57 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
I posted my thoughts in response to the hybrid rebalance in a different thread, so please refer to that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=290102#post290102
- Null ammo needs +50% for both optimal and falloff. Barrage gives a 50% falloff bonus, and Scorch gives 50% extra to range. Blasters depend on both range and falloff, so Null ought to give a 50% bonus for both, to help truly address the range issues of blasters.
-

I am backing this fully.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-11-05 16:00:37 UTC
Tallest,

I appreciate what you have tried so far, but trust me, the issue with blasters will be taller than you until you give them a 40 percent damage boost. :-D
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#71 - 2011-11-05 16:10:33 UTC
What is wrong with forums eating my posts??? Grrr....

Most of you guys need to chill out big time. The purpose of hybrid changes is to make them a viable choice and get a balance between the 4 races. The majority of suggestions in here will just make blasters the most powerfull thing in EVE and break the game even more than now.

Lets get some time on testserver and get some constructive feed back for the tall guy to work with... Stuff like boosting blaster damage with 40% will merely ruin blasters and comparing 425mm Railguns with Tachyons is a total misconception. Get in there and get some descriptive feed back with thoughts about pros, cons, loopholes and suggestions.

Pinky
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#72 - 2011-11-05 16:22:37 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
What is wrong with forums eating my posts??? Grrr....

Most of you guys need to chill out big time. The purpose of hybrid changes is to make them a viable choice and get a balance between the 4 races. The majority of suggestions in here will just make blasters the most powerfull thing in EVE and break the game even more than now.

Lets get some time on testserver and get some constructive feed back for the tall guy to work with... Stuff like boosting blaster damage with 40% will merely ruin blasters and comparing 425mm Railguns with Tachyons is a total misconception. Get in there and get some descriptive feed back with thoughts about pros, cons, loopholes and suggestions.

Pinky


Amarr Pilot spotted.

There are a lot of good suggestions here and a huge DPS increase in exchange for the crippled range blasters have is hardly imbalancing. Show us where the misconception is when we compare Railguns to Beam lasers?

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#73 - 2011-11-05 16:38:14 UTC
Post 52 complains about Tachyons vs Rails...
Also I fly all races with maxed skills and would love for Blasters to get good, however the ships need more love than the blasters.

So far the problem is more about getting close enough to use blasters than blasters not doing enough damage which is why half the hybrid buff is about speed and agility. If you just buff blaster dps with 40% you'll imbalance more than you would think...
Ofcourse people should come with their opinions but you cannot balance with on 1 single attribute alone.

Pinky
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2011-11-05 16:42:40 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:


Most of you guys need to chill out big time. The purpose of hybrid changes is to make them a viable choice and get a balance between the 4 races. The majority of suggestions in here will just make blasters the most powerfull thing in EVE and break the game even more than now.


Pinky


hai thur. have u ever done ne pee vee pee
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#75 - 2011-11-05 16:56:28 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Amarr Pilot spotted.

There are a lot of good suggestions here and a huge DPS increase in exchange for the crippled range blasters have is hardly imbalancing. Show us where the misconception is when we compare Railguns to Beam lasers?



well back in the day before cap ships ccp introduced tachions to be extra large weapons for lazors...
this was also around the time when you could fire torps from rocket launchers and have deul mwd ravens...

time has changed but his perceptions about comparing the largest of the 3 weapons types has not...

they will argue till kingdom comes that you can only compare 425 to mega beams...

personally all they need to do to bring tachions in line is reduce their fittings... then we should be fine in comparring them...

If you look at tachions and 1400's they are balanced but 425's are not...

its 2011 here people not 2005....

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#76 - 2011-11-05 16:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I killed the first and afaik only Adrestia ever lost on TQ...
That could ofcourse happen for anyone, but plz keep on subject?
Well documented agruments will beat my 5 years of pvp experience any day and yeah the railguns must be in need of the biggest buff no doubt...
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2011-11-05 17:05:35 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
[quote=Pinky Denmark]

Most of you guys need to chill out big time. The purpose of hybrid changes is to make them a viable choice and get a balance between the 4 races. The majority of suggestions in here will just make blasters the most powerfull thing in EVE and break the game even more than now.


Pinky



Pinky,

I have been PvPing since 2005 and started out as a Pure Gallente pilot. Now, I have all level V skills in every weapon class and every ship from Battleship down in every Race.

Trust me when I tell you that Rails are the weakest weapon system, followed by Blasters. A massive boost to their effectiveness will not make them the most powerful thing in EVE. A massive boost to blasters will make them the most powerful thing in EVE from ranges of less than 10km or so. That is as it should be. Blasters are supposed to dominate up close.
If you defecate yourself a little when a Blaster Megathron comes out of warp on top of your Abbadon, then Blasters are exactly where they need to be. Just as a Megathron pilot curses when that same Abbadon is 30km away.
EVE isn't about making all things the same. Its about making everything shine at the right time and under the right circumstance.
Since 2005, CCP has slowly nerfed and buffed their way into a corner. If they boost Blaster range then Blasters become lasers. If they boost Blaster damage then people like you will complain about them being OP. If they nerf anything right now people will justifiably hang the DEVs from the nearest tree.

Boosting the damage is the best course of action given the circumstances.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2011-11-05 17:06:55 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I killed the first and afaik only Adrestia ever lost on TQ...
That could ofcourse happen for anyone, but plz keep on subject?
Well documented agruments will beat my 5 years of pvp experience any day and yeah the railguns must be in need of the biggest buff no doubt...


ive been pvping since eve's beta...wth is your point? just because u have pvp'd and maxed a bunch of skills blindly, it doesnt mean u have a good understanding of whats going on.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#79 - 2011-11-05 17:19:42 UTC
I think Pinky Denmark's point is that we don't need to over boost hybrids when the reality is the ships themselves are broken. It was the same deal with minmatar, decent enough line up with poor BS's and Caps... Boosted weapons and now we have Abaddons with 1400mm's as the top fleet ship.

Beyond a few changes (ammo, blaster tracking) I feel it's time to move on and focus on specific ships. I mean, most of the comments have been that Gallente need more speed, which has very little to do with the weapons themselves.

Would blasters be broken with 10% more damage and even more tracking? No, but I fear there will be several ships that will be no better after this change and that's the problem.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-11-05 17:24:15 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Amarr Pilot spotted.

There are a lot of good suggestions here and a huge DPS increase in exchange for the crippled range blasters have is hardly imbalancing. Show us where the misconception is when we compare Railguns to Beam lasers?



well back in the day before cap ships ccp introduced tachions to be extra large weapons for lazors...
this was also around the time when you could fire torps from rocket launchers and have deul mwd ravens...

time has changed but his perceptions about comparing the largest of the 3 weapons types has not...

they will argue till kingdom comes that you can only compare 425 to mega beams...

personally all they need to do to bring tachions in line is reduce their fittings... then we should be fine in comparring them...

If you look at tachions and 1400's they are balanced but 425's are not...

its 2011 here people not 2005....


Well, feel free to up the fitting of rails of you improve their performance. Currently there is nothign adequate long-range gallente cna fit on their ships: rails track badly and when they hit they only are chipping paint. There only advantage is range, but it does not come in useful anywhere, unles you want to give us 200 km points. (not such a good idea)