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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Spartan dax
0utbreak
#41 - 2011-11-04 23:51:58 UTC
Regarding Rails. Atm They're just Beams light with no real Game™ application. Beams do way more dps with short range ammo and ties or surpasses them at 100-120k which would be a range where you'd expect Rails to surpass their beam equivalents. The tracking argument is kinda moot as Beams can switch instantly to high tracking ammo. Combine this with the scripted Tracking computers and you'll end up in a situation where beams always outdps or outracks their Railgun counterparts.

The Fix. (which will work for blasters as well)

Non range related damage ammo. IE Antimatter has the same damage as Iron. We give Antimatter the 1.2 tracking modifier instead of boosting blaster tracking by 20% and work our way downwards as we go further out in range. All of a sudden we have Railships with anemic shortramge damage compared to beams but vastly improved dps at range.

Also have a look at tracking computers, they've been unneccesarily nerfed with the scripts.
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2011-11-04 23:56:49 UTC
I am flying the ROKH with blasters and rails in the test server testing on different fits and engaging different battleships (mostly MACHs and Nightmares)
After losing about 15 ships (in test server) I made following observations.

1) ROKH with Rails: I tried to keep range with my MWD (1 Cycle) used Javelin L with T2 425MM)
*I lost a lot of cap so I had to shut down my MWD and I got caught up.
There after the opponent scrammed me with a faction scram (15km) and orbit me at 15 km with 225m/s speed. I could not break away.
Opp was hitting me for 1000 - 1800HP and I was hitting for 200-800HP.
My med slot had 4tank mods, 1 MWD and 1 Sebo.

Final conclusion: For PvP I will never use Rails.

2) Rokh with Blasters: I used various fits.
Med slot distribution was 4 tank mods, 1 web and 1 Prop.
I failed massively where my prop mod was MWD. My biggest problem was
when I was chasing the Opp with MWD ON, I was getting neuted.
Few occasions my gun shut down because I could not break away sooner.
Blaster damage was between 1000-2000HP per volley. I tried overloading
MWD but to reach full speed it would take about 20 secs+. By that time my
cap would be less than half.

3) Finally I tried the following fit.

Rokh=New Brawler
rig slot 0 type=Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
rig slot 1 type=Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
rig slot 2 type=Large Core Defence Field Extender I
med slot 0 type=Stasis Webifier II
med slot 1 type=Large Shield Extender II
med slot 2 type=Large Shield Extender II
med slot 3 type=Invulnerability Field II
med slot 4 type=Invulnerability Field II
med slot 5 type=100MN Afterburner II
low slot 0 type=Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
low slot 1 type=Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
low slot 2 type=Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
low slot 3 type=Tracking Enhancer II
low slot 4 type=Damage Control II
hi slot 0 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 1 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 2 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 3 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 4 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 5 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 6 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
hi slot 7 type=Neutron Blaster Cannon II
qty=4 slot=drone bay type=Warrior II
qty=1 slot=drone bay type=Berserker TP-900
AMMO CN Antimatar and NULL
I constantly chased the Opp with AB on. My rigs + Ship Bonus + 1x TE gave me 7.76 KM optimal
and 19KM Falloff. My volley was between 1250 to 2200HP. The drone gave me an advantage by extra webbing. The Opp just MWDed to 50 KM and killed the drones with his gun and warped out. The Opp was in a Mach.
In the above fit I observed that while I was unsettling Opp's orbit range I was not able to catch it.
I have to lose a tank mod fit a scram and shut down Opp's MWD. Even if I would web the Opp, it could
easily wriggle out of heated range of 13km.

My gun range was my biggest problem. At 17KM + the volley damage would fall drastically to 200-600HP even if we are flying in one straight line.

Final conclusion: A fitted ROKH would cost me 220Mill ISK. Losing it in a battle would be 90% probability.
So I will never bring it to a battle. I have already trained Amarr Cruiser LvL 5 and Logi 5.
I will happly fly a gaurdian supporting a Abbadon fleet that is at least twice better in value than the ROKH.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-11-05 00:06:52 UTC
The Dread Blaster Changes were unnecessary. The whole balancing factor for that huge DPS buff was going to be the capacitor usage. Now, the Moros is actually somewhat OP. Dread Rails may actually need a nerf to bring them into line with other weapons.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-11-05 00:25:02 UTC
Just took a Deimos out for spin without plate and armour was about 1740m/s with 2450m/s overheat speed. Fitting Neutrons still seems really tight and I have max fitting skills I always thought that I would still need an ACR with a repper in the lows but still cannot T2 the microwarpdrive, just need a tiny amount more grid.

Was the full 12% reduction applied?

Cap life looks a lot better now.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#45 - 2011-11-05 00:52:48 UTC
I'm telling you the shield tanking hybrid ships (Moa, Ferox, Rokh) need an extra medslot to make the optimal bonus work...
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-05 00:56:47 UTC
D: Range bonus on a weapon system that can already not take advantage of it's range. If one thing changes please give Caldari hybrid platforms a different bonus than range :D

Ferox #1
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#47 - 2011-11-05 01:30:10 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
I am flying the ROKH with blasters and rails in the test server testing on different fits and engaging different battleships (mostly MACHs and Nightmares)
After losing about 15 ships (in test server) I made following observations.
....

I see where the problem is.
Tantabobo
Jester's Fleet
Jester's Alliance
#48 - 2011-11-05 01:42:47 UTC
While I agree that blasters/gallente ships could use a buff. Please don't remove the flavor of the gallente ships. The armor repair bonus on them is awesome in many situations (especially solo pvp).
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#49 - 2011-11-05 03:08:44 UTC
Tallest, may I suggest that you tweak Tracking Computers or consider the introduction of a Federation Navy Tracking Enhancer that specifically caters to Blasters?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#50 - 2011-11-05 03:12:50 UTC
Tantabobo wrote:
While I agree that blasters/gallente ships could use a buff. Please don't remove the flavor of the gallente ships. The armor repair bonus on them is awesome in many situations (especially solo pvp).


you dont have to get rid of it all you have to do is make it so it affects incomming RR... that way the bonus is usefull for fleet warfare...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#51 - 2011-11-05 03:46:22 UTC
I'm in favor of a more drastic boost to dps. I think that there's nothing wrong with Blasters outperforming EVERY. OTHER. TURRET. TYPE. at their range, which is extremely close. I'd say up to a 50% buff of damage would make blasters match their in game description.

That being said, I'm sure it's a dumb idea, but:
How about a module that acts like a tractor beam on ships, pulling them into blaster range? It would have to be cap heavy or have a large drawback in order to not make it OP.
Unfortunately, things that affect other ships like that seem to lean more towards a specialized, T2 role or module.

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#52 - 2011-11-05 04:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Some thoughts from 6 hours on the test server today...


Blasters: Increase the tracking boost from 20% to between 40% and 50%.
Increase the drone bay of all blaster orientated ships by 25m3 including the Talos. Why? Surviviblity through utility drones will improve the risk vs reward ratio most pilots asses when choosing a tool for the job.

Rails: Javelin should be the only t2 ammo with a tracking increase (again, it should be 40% at current optimal, or 20% at antimatter optimal with increased cap usage)
VERY IMPORTANT! - Quake needs to be changed so that it has -30-50% fall off. The current tornado has 125km fall off with Quake, combined with a 25% tracking speed is nuts!
I've said this before and I'll say it again... T2 ammo should accentuate the differences between the races, instead of homogenising them.
- Quake - 25% increase to Artillery alpha, 5% Less damage than RF EMP and 33% less range and fall off.
- Gleam - Increases damage - 15% more damage than Navy Multifreqency and 33% less tracking and 33% less optimal range.
- Javelin - Increases tracking by 50% - 5% Less damage than CN Antimatter and 50% increased capacitor usage.

For the benefit of Rails, I still recommend increasing the base damage of of spike by 25% - Why? Rails should = high dps, and high range. As it stands, tachyons out damage rails at almost all ranges when a damage bonus is applied. Not good enough.


Myrmidon should lose turrets, grid , again drones, be less like the vexor, and more like the really fun ship people flew back when gallente was still cool....


Hyperion should be completely re-tasked. Even mission runners don't make use of it's tanking bonus. New slots, new bonuses (ewar boat perhaps to deal with the new BC's?) - I personally think the megathron with the current changes (mostly power grid increases) and speed, is fine, although a little extra speed via rig penalty change wouldn't go amiss) - Why? Not only is there too much cross over between the Mega and Hype, the Abaddon practically does everything the Hyperion could do and unlike the Hyperion, the abaddon works really well with artillery too!


Deimos probably either needs to be a nano boat, ehp brick or have a substancial DPS increase - the fundamental problem with it is survivability, HAC's are too expensive to be risked for so little gain in those point blank situations.


Eos and Astarte should switch roles. Eos has always been best as the ganker, Astarte should make way for a new and improved deimos, becoming a fleet ship with tracking bonuses and a role based EHP.


The Talos needs drones, extra CPU for most rail fits. It's also currently un-usable with blasters. (mostly due to it's the speed/ehp coefficient) and it's tenancy to be two volleyed by Tornados... Using quake.

Could you maybe decrease the powergrid usage of medium and large electron blasters and lower tier rails by another 5% please? Would make various fits (ishtar, Phobos, Proteus, Deimos, thorax, talos, domi) that currently use autocannons not need to use autocannons any more. Alternatively, could you look at a 5% PG increase on those ships?

The moros is very much OP in it's current config. Best dread at every range, due to the way the fall off mechanic works.


Tomorrow i'll be looking more at the Caldari side of things although I don't really think much has changed.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#53 - 2011-11-05 04:15:33 UTC
Interesting ideas, but I'd love to keep the Hyperion as a dedicated blaster boat.

Only one that isn't an odd bird that everyone hates flying because it's bad at what it's supposed to be good at.

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.
Anikan Fernardo
Shedload of Zeds
#54 - 2011-11-05 05:59:51 UTC
I'm going to agree with the people saying " Lower ROF and then increase Damage ". It solves several problems at once, chiefly, having to carry tons of ammo wasting valuable space that could be used for cap boosters, as well as lowering the need of said cap boosters since we aren't chucking all of our cap at the enemy with our insane ROF.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2011-11-05 06:09:52 UTC
As I have said before the design in itself is flawed. Unless CCP is willing to redesign hybrids and Gallente ships from the ground up or making every kind of gun similar to each other we'll never get anywhere.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Party Lips
Calamitous-Intent
#56 - 2011-11-05 06:39:10 UTC
blasters need more dps.

what are rail guns for again?
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-11-05 07:06:30 UTC
Have you ever thought about just having a racial fitting bonus system?

Like every minmatar ship gets 25% less pg to fit Speed mods

all gallente ships get 25% less mass from armor rigs?

caladri get 25% less CPU for fitting shield resistance mods

Ammar get 25% less cpu when fitting cap mods?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2011-11-05 07:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Pinky Denmark hit this one the head.

Gallente ships should have a built in obvious advantage when it comes to lock times. Without lowering the sig radius of those ships, since that is minmatars big advantage.

If it took them 25-50% longer to lock, then they would have a much better time getting into range.



also it would be cool, if you could que up ammos. so once a clip is done, you just get the next ammo type.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-11-05 07:43:20 UTC
after doing some rough math and a lot of reading on different eve forums:

im not sure if damage is ok now, due to the massive problems of bringing armor tanks to close range you should consider something more: (for blasterships only, im not really sure whether railguns need additional fixing !)

cruiser, battlecruiser and battleships still wont be able to get in range of a moving enemy

consider some of the following (shamelessly stolen from various boards, im not (always) the guy with the idea !)

- reduce minimum range required to enter warp, also reduce cap required to enter warp (based on C/BS/BC skill)
- a massive speed bonus to MWDs + a massive gain of mass when using an MWD so only flying in a direct line is possible to intercept orbiting enemys, also reduce the time it needs to turn a ship in a specific direction (inertia modifier ?)
- in combination with blasters some gallente ships are able to fit a new kind of MWD which can be activated for a specifc amount of seconds and has a cooldown after each activation, cooldown and cap use based on C/BS/BC skill, also to intercept orbiting ships
- consider changing the reload time for blasters, 10 seconds is just to much, 5 might be more suitable due to the small frames in which the available ammo is usefull
- a different and interresting approach would be changing the ammo feed:
ammo for blasters is given out in ammo belts, the pilot can choose which belt will be emptied next
-- 20 shots in blaster, automatic refill from one stack in cargo belt my english sucks so i made a picture to explain better


the promised new EWAR drones could also add some interresting tactical maneuvers, im thinking about web/scrambling drones here
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-11-05 08:27:03 UTC
Some more test stuff after extensive testing.
Ship - ROKH
From a dead stop position to turn and align full speed with AB II on reaching 90% @ 280m/s 45 secs
From full aligned to turn and align full speed with AB II on reaching 90% @ 280m/s 49sec
From full aligned to turn around warp out 35 secs

I think with a blaster platform, we have to forget about breaking away once we commit.
We either win or lose.
Chasing is out of question. But with the following fit if I tackled something then it stays tackled.
MWD can be shut with a scram therefore AB II may be the choice.
Tank 81K EHP.
I used following fit,
High
8x Neutron II

Med slot
1x Photon II
1x Invul II
2x Statis Web II
1x Scram
1x AB II

Low SLot
3x Mag Stab
1x Tracking II
DC II

Rigs
2x Hybrid Metastasis ADjuster I (tracking bonus)
1x Thermal Resist I

Drone
4x Warrior II
1x Berserker (web)