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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#1201 - 2013-05-19 21:09:04 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Baycity Kitty wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Shocked


Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey

Confirmed this in not true.
http://i.imgur.com/rDZgLka.jpg


Thank goodness, and thank you.

Now let's bury this, before CCP gets ideas.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1202 - 2013-05-19 21:18:34 UTC
I can do lvl 4 missions in a Drake, we better ban T3s and Battleships from lvl 4s. Ban pirate BS from hisec incursions too, they aren't strictly necessary, only T1 BS with T1 guns allowed! Derp.

The fact that you don't NEED a T3 to do 4/10s is irrelevant. Its convenience. And unlike with lvl 4 missions and incursions, ISK is not being generated by farming faction modules in 4/10s *. They must be sold on market for ISK that already exists, if you even get a nice drop in the first place. So why such an attack on convenience/efficiency in hisec exploration? Why single out this form of hisec PvE as needing more inconvenience added? No other high end hisec PvE has ship restrictions placed on it.

The Tengu isn't even particularly unbeatable by other ships. Its just popular because missiles are very easy to use and its kinetic bonus just happens to line up with the best 4/10 site. I foresee a thousand hisec tengu exploration pilots becoming hisec incursion basilisk pilots. Fabricating ISK instead of trading for it.

I really don't see what the issue is with T3s running 4/10s.

* Yes, yes, I know, you do get some bounties in the process of running a 4/10. So technically a bit of ISK is being generated. But you get my point.
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1203 - 2013-05-19 22:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
Ok, seems like CCP chose the most stupid way to solve issues - to ban Tengu from high-sex exploration.

Change the location of the site or something, move 4/10 to lowsec or make signature strength random, I take it, but to ban T3, this is just wrong.

Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.

Do not like the direction this game is heading. And yes, I can fly a Drake properly and replace the Tengu with it, but it is not a solution for me. By removing Tengus the problem wont be solved, older players will just switch to other ships and new players will be screwed again. Is a site with potential 800M loot even suitable for new players? Nope, it should be moved to low sec or signature strength made random and you have a solution. Why there is an escalation of unrated sites? To grab the really valuable loot you need luck to escalate further and and undergo a risky trip to low sec - this is correct design.

When do you plan to ban CNR and Golem from high/sec L4? I can make more ISK running safe L4 missions than looking for 4/10s in over-competitive high-sec, something has to be done about it... And in missions it is just ISK printed out of nothing, in plexes you loot something that needs to be sold for a market price (the bounty there is low).

/disapointed
Tzu Wu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1204 - 2013-05-19 22:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzu Wu
Not yet,at least.Mark it down,Orcas will only be only able to carry indys come Odyssey.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#1205 - 2013-05-20 00:00:59 UTC
Noztra Ernaga wrote:
Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.


I understand your disappointment but lets wait first how things will actualy turn out after Odyssey (granted i feel rather pessimistic myself). Thers still room for CCP to get at least a few things right despite all the **** ups so far.
Tengu should be perfect ship for null sec profession sites should they decide to make them worthwile. Probing bonus, interdiction nullifier, cov ops cloak, enough mid slots for analyzers and additional probing mods. (under the assumption that not much dps and tank will be necessary for the sites aka rat spawns can be avoided or at least evaded).
And i think or hope so that they change their mind about Tengu ban from low sec sites or leave the sites as they are but move them all to low.
Arista Shahni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1206 - 2013-05-20 00:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arista Shahni
Not going to argue with players about the nuances. This is my official "Down with this sort of thing". A major part of probing is the MIND skill, not the SP SKILL.

I play EVE because my hand eye coordination stinks, bad nerves, blah blah pity me. Scanning is perfectfor noncombat for me because it requires time, thought, and no twitch.

I do NOT live in Highsec because of my scanning habits. 4/10's being moved will not move me.

It's already hard to highsec scan due to the # of players scanning out sites. The lack of sites will NOT push me into low, it will push me out of scanning.

When has EVE ever catered to the lowest common denominator? I worked my tail off to learn everything I have and this cheapens it worse than any Medieval-like-MMO nerf I have ever played.

I mean. ..if this is going to happen at least make an Explo verison of this special keyboard: http://i.imgur.com/ujEMc8O.png NSFW BECAUSE IT HAS A NAUGHTY WORD.

I hope someone is running a tear harvetser cause I'm bleeding them like Amarr shields right now.

"I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.  And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all."
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1207 - 2013-05-20 03:40:52 UTC
Roime wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.


This is the way and mentality of the hisec bear. Killing noobs instead of helping them. gg

you must be playing another game, i'm sure. because typical hisec bears in eve would not even know what warp scrambling is, let alone have the idea to actually target another player.

also, i cannot say that i remember ever seeing you in the new citizen forum.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1208 - 2013-05-20 06:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
Johan Toralen wrote:
I understand your disappointment but lets wait first how things will actualy turn out after Odyssey (granted i feel rather pessimistic myself). Thers still room for CCP to get at least a few things right despite all the **** ups so far.
Tengu should be perfect ship for null sec profession sites should they decide to make them worthwile. Probing bonus, interdiction nullifier, cov ops cloak, enough mid slots for analyzers and additional probing mods. (under the assumption that not much dps and tank will be necessary for the sites aka rat spawns can be avoided or at least evaded).
And i think or hope so that they change their mind about Tengu ban from low sec sites or leave the sites as they are but move them all to low.


Yes, but why dont they rather solve the root of the problem? Instead of banning T3s, which are not the root of the problem but a consequence, why not to reconsider if a site with possible 800M loot really belongs to high-sec?

The root of the problem is the possible sweet loot. Why are not unrated sites problematic? Because to get really valuable loot out of those, you have to travel to low sec during last escalation and it is perfectly fine, that is a good design.

Remove the loot, move it to low sec, create lowsec escalation of it or whatever and it will make wonders. Its supply and demand. Thats it. But please do not tell us what should be flown :(
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1209 - 2013-05-20 06:17:17 UTC
Noztra Ernaga wrote:
Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.


Good bye. Eve doesn't need people who are unable to adapt.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1210 - 2013-05-20 06:38:04 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Noztra Ernaga wrote:
Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.


Good bye. Eve doesn't need people who are unable to adapt.

It is not a matter of adapting, it is being squeezed out. T3 ships are solo exploration ships, CCP seems to be doing everything in there power to remove solo exploration.
With the removal of T3 ships form 3/10 and 4/10 sites, inorder to do them now you must have a ton of ships scattered throught the galaxy, or have a Orca or another type of ship with a SMA to follow you around.
I will admit that I feel T3 ships are too powerful for a 3/10 and largely a 4/10 site, but at the same time a T1 cruiser can do most 4/10 sites, so why sould they allow any advanced cruisers and battlecruisers in them?
A Destroyer can do a 3/10 site, why allow any cruisers in them at all?

It all seems to boil down to the removal of solo exploration, which if that is what one finds entertaining then un-subbing is the only thing to do.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1211 - 2013-05-20 07:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Good bye. Eve doesn't need people who are unable to adapt.


By adapting you mean to change ships and create the same pressure on 4/10 in high-sec? How is the situation changing? Just because it wont be Tengu but other ship, the problem gets solved by miracle? No, in a few months people will start a new forum whine being beaten in 4/10 competition by other ship used by high-sec exploration veterans.

I can use a Drake and play it the exactly same way, oh wait, I will have better and passive tank... I want to fly Tengu, because I find the ship more fun than boring Drake.

Just because I want CCP to solve the root of the problem instead of prohibiting certain ships, I am unable to adapt, good logic, great :)

The problem is a site in safe high-sec generating loot worth up to almost 1B. Its a matter of supply and demand. If the site really is created for new players, then such a valuable loot has nothing to do in there, unless it is a part of lowsec expedition.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1212 - 2013-05-20 08:50:19 UTC
So looks like the concensus is:

- block T2 cruisers as well from hisec plexes
- remove ship restrictions from lowsec plexes
- decrease loot drops from hisec sites

I understand the opposition, after all CCP is trying to make exploration more player skill based instead of SP/ISK based, and that makes my ~elite hisec explorers~ very unhappy.

.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1213 - 2013-05-20 09:06:34 UTC
Why stop there? 3/10 sites are easily done in a destroyer, and 4/10 sites can be done in a t1 cruiser. So lets make that the restrictions.

Or the sites could be changed to make it a challenge for the ships that can enter them, a 3/10 should be difficult for a T2 cruiser, or a group of t1 cruisers.
A 4/10 site should be a challenge for a command ship but manageable for a group of battle cruisers.

The loot drops need not change.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#1214 - 2013-05-20 09:15:00 UTC
It seems I have found an small issue with modules/rigs intended to improve Rangefinding. Please read this,
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1215 - 2013-05-20 09:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
People were complaining about Tengus, so Tengus get banned from 4/10. Lets place our bets which ship is going to be the next victim in a few months :)

What about unrated sites, are there any new ship restrictions? Or is it only Tengu banned from 3/10 a 4/10? Thanks.
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#1216 - 2013-05-20 10:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
Roime wrote:
So looks like the concensus is:
- block T2 cruisers as well from hisec plexes
- remove ship restrictions from lowsec plexes
- decrease loot drops from hisec sites
I understand the opposition, after all CCP is trying to make exploration more player skill based instead of SP/ISK based, and that makes my ~elite hisec explorers~ very unhappy.


Well my suggestions would be:

- Randomize sig strenghts - no more farming DED's (= very simple solution, eh CCP?). This would complicate navigation in wh space tho, so I'd try to find a solution to compensate for that (perhaps making all kinds of wh's the same sig strenght? Dunno, haven't really thought that one out.).

- Ban tech 3's from DED3/10's but leave 4/10's alone
- Give DSPs back (for deep safe probing)
- Remove DED 4/10s from highsec OR fix loot tables so there's more likelyhood for better drops in lowsec in comparison to highsec
- Bring back DED 1 and 2/10s to lowsec in form of scannable (using this new discovery scanners) signatures which pop on overview when warped to (kinda like FW plexes). Also balance them so that all rats have to be killed in first room(s), and faction rat is a bit tougher to kill, hence providing time for potential engagements to happen (kind of like serp 4/10). Make these spawn across constelations, promoting roaming and pvp in the process.

Some other things:
- give back timer when doing system scan (I can't see how long it will take untill it ends atm)
- give back the list of signatures discovered by discovery scanner - I don't want to get nauseous by spinning around all the time


and finally
- learn to manage expectations, becasue they determine satisfaction in the end. I think you failed miserably on this one with Odyssey.
Just look at these qoutes from Odyssey page:
- "Some will encounter sites never discovered before, and others will be confronted with intriguing tests of skill and resolve. Ample rewards await those that return from their journeys with ships intact., and
- "There is now more among the stars, enticing even the most experienced veterans to explore.".

What "more among the stars" are you referring to, since nothing really new has been added? No new sites have been announced so far, there have been hints at rebalancing loot but its still all in the hint category with only 2 weeks left to go.
If anything, there is actually less among the stars at the moment, less probe types to start with and less loot that will be scooped with the cans doing road runner vs coyote routine. Oh, and I do hope you don't think that silly minigame presents a " tests of skill and resolve", or that it will make "most experienced veterans" flock to exploration sites What?.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1217 - 2013-05-20 10:13:16 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

It is not a matter of adapting, it is being squeezed out. T3 ships are solo exploration ships, CCP seems to be doing everything in there power to remove solo exploration.


You can still do solo exploration, you just need another ship for it if you want to do it in highsec.

Quote:
With the removal of T3 ships form 3/10 and 4/10 sites, inorder to do them now you must have a ton of ships scattered throught the galaxy, or have a Orca or another type of ship with a SMA to follow you around.


You may or may not have noticed that the signatures have become easier to scan down, at least in HS. You don't need a scanbonused ship anymore to find these sites. Many battlecruisers have utility highslots for a probe launcher. Or you could go refit in one of the many many many stations.

Quote:
I will admit that I feel T3 ships are too powerful for a 3/10 and largely a 4/10 site, but at the same time a T1 cruiser can do most 4/10 sites, so why sould they allow any advanced cruisers and battlecruisers in them?
A Destroyer can do a 3/10 site, why allow any cruisers in them at all?


With the new skill requirements, it will become easier to specialize in tech2 ships, giving newer players more variety in ships. At some point you have to draw the line for what ships you want to allow in the complexes. It seems fine to me to not allow cruisers with battleship tank/dps in the beginner complexes.

Quote:

It all seems to boil down to the removal of solo exploration, which if that is what one finds entertaining then un-subbing is the only thing to do.


See above. You can still do solo exploration. You just have to adapt.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1218 - 2013-05-20 10:14:30 UTC
Noztra Ernaga wrote:
What about unrated sites, are there any new ship restrictions? Or is it only Tengu banned from 3/10 a 4/10? Thanks.


All strategic cruisers have been excluded from those plexes.
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#1219 - 2013-05-20 10:20:05 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

With the new skill requirements, it will become easier to specialize in tech2 ships, giving newer players more variety in ships. At some point you have to draw the line for what ships you want to allow in the complexes. It seems fine to me to not allow cruisers with battleship tank/dps in the beginner complexes.


DED4's are beginner complexes? I thought those would be DED1 and 2's but hey...
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1220 - 2013-05-20 10:21:38 UTC
Noztra Ernaga wrote:
By adapting you mean to change ships and create the same pressure on 4/10 in high-sec? How is the situation changing? Just because it wont be Tengu but other ship, the problem gets solved by miracle? No, in a few months people will start a new forum whine being beaten in 4/10 competition by other ship used by high-sec exploration veterans.


So, when there is effectively no change, why do you whine about it and threaten to unsubscribe? Why don't you just change to another ship and go on with your merry life?

Quote:
I can use a Drake and play it the exactly same way, oh wait, I will have better and passive tank... I want to fly Tengu, because I find the ship more fun than boring Drake.


Low- and Nullsec has plenty of opportunities to use your tengu for exploration.

Quote:
The problem is a site in safe high-sec generating loot worth up to almost 1B. Its a matter of supply and demand. If the site really is created for new players, then such a valuable loot has nothing to do in there, unless it is a part of lowsec expedition.


The value of the loot is another problem, yes. If the T3 nerf doesn't play out, I'm sure CCP will take a look at the loottables/site distribution again. For now I think taking it slowly is the best path to go.