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So what happens if we feel the CSM does not represent us?

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Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#201 - 2011-09-07 22:41:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


In total, you should expect to make 30-40 mill ISK per hour with little difficulty, just blitzing.

What ISK/hr do you get from the Veldspar?


wow, what kind of ship you using to do that? Best I can afford to lose (number one rule of EVE) is a Drake right now. I cant run in and blitz (as per guide4eve.com's instructions on doing that) and not get killed usually lol

I get 13 mil - eh I duinno I dont usually watch the clock, next time I dump Ill watch

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#202 - 2011-09-07 22:41:49 UTC
It is a interesting question.

CSM proposes negative PR campain, and all the remafications it entails.

However when the players say wait a minute that is not what we want how about we remove CSM instead.

The players are told.
Wait for the next election, CSM can't be touched.
Interesting.



EVERYBODY KNOWS
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#203 - 2011-09-07 22:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Zymurgist
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I flatly don't believe that a single miner with a hauler alt can make more mining Veldspar than it is possible to make doing level 4 missions. I'd be prepared to believe that his missioning skills and techniques are such that - somehow - he manages to make less doing level 4s than from mining veld, but that's on a par with saying that a 10 year old Toyota truck is faster than a Bugatti Veyron if you make the Bugatti pull a 3.5 ton trailer.


k... I make 13 mil EVERY TIME I dump the Ity V

I run lvl IVs, every 5 missions I get a mission that pays me 2 million. The missions in between that I get less.
Which makes more money?

Maybe I should quantify that with FOR ME


loot and salvage your missions

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#204 - 2011-09-07 22:44:22 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


In total, you should expect to make 30-40 mill ISK per hour with little difficulty, just blitzing.

What ISK/hr do you get from the Veldspar?


wow, what kind of ship you using to do that? Best I can afford to lose (number one rule of EVE) is a Drake right now. I cant run in and blitz (as per guide4eve.com's instructions on doing that) and not get killed usually lol

I get 13 mil - eh I duinno I dont usually watch the clock, next time I dump Ill watch



i can do it in a drake, with a noctis to loot/salvage.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#205 - 2011-09-07 22:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Malcanis wrote:
Tarikla wrote:

Incidentally, which proposal was about forcing people into 0.0?


this

Im assuming thats sarcasm and that whole pretending not to see an issue when its there cause it goes against your argument thing.

as it was said back here:
[quote=Richard Hammond II] Thats not an issue imo, my issue as to high sec is them making high sec less livable as far as making isks. I know CCP has never mentioned moving lvl 4 agents but you start mentioning agents and (even in the interview with Mittens on EVE radio) the first thing out of the mouths of the ppl that want to nerf high sec is "there needs to be something done about lvl IVs"

My friend mines in high sec. Veldspar mostly. He's not even near a hub. His alt is a hauler. He has an Itty V. In about 25 mins or so, he can fill the itty v with ore. Refined, that ore makes 5 mil (away from a hub) or so. He says he makes more that way than even running lvl IVs. IF - note the qualifier IF - IF lvl IVs got moved, would all Veldspar be next? When would it end?


Directly, physically, forcing no, economically forcing yes.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Si Omega
Doomheim
#206 - 2011-09-07 22:51:42 UTC
Quote:
if only the badposters could make up their minds:

either

1. the csm has too much power and is leading us on a ~road to ruin~

or

2. the csm are powerless pr tools and shills of ccp and completely irrelevant

pick one already


I pick you withdraw your threats about using the press for a negative campaign and work with CCP AS and ONLY AS the game reps you were voted to be. Using gutter politics and threats of bad press is lame, lazy and smacks of cheap, read CHEAP politics.

Try this on Mittens

1. If you believe the CSM is powerful enough to drive CCP to action through such cheap methods, then use that power properly and as intended.

2. If you're not powerful enough then shutup because we don't need more bad press from misinformed fools stirring the pot so they can win Mr. Popularity contests.

Pick one.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#207 - 2011-09-07 22:54:55 UTC
Vin Hellsing wrote:


To be frank, I like to talk to people on a face to face basis through conversations, and none of the CSM have made themselves available for that.



no offense, did you ask them?
Im trading in game mains back an forth right now on my main... ir I was. I sent a message to all the CSM Ive seen on forums today. White Tree an Trebor responded Mittens hasnt yet

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Vin Hellsing
#208 - 2011-09-07 22:56:54 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Vin Hellsing wrote:


To be frank, I like to talk to people on a face to face basis through conversations, and none of the CSM have made themselves available for that.



no offense, did you ask them?
Im trading in game mains back an forth right now on my main... ir I was. I sent a message to all the CSM Ive seen on forums today. White Tree an Trebor responded Mittens hasnt yet


Started a line of contact with Trebor recently about the Voting Awareness Committee that I've started. We'll see where this goes.
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#209 - 2011-09-07 23:02:12 UTC
Si Omega wrote:
Quote:
if only the badposters could make up their minds:

either

1. the csm has too much power and is leading us on a ~road to ruin~

or

2. the csm are powerless pr tools and shills of ccp and completely irrelevant

pick one already


I pick you withdraw your threats about using the press for a negative campaign and work with CCP AS and ONLY AS the game reps you were voted to be. Using gutter politics and threats of bad press is lame, lazy and smacks of cheap, read CHEAP politics.

Try this on Mittens

1. If you believe the CSM is powerful enough to drive CCP to action through such cheap methods, then use that power properly and as intended.

2. If you're not powerful enough then shutup because we don't need more bad press from misinformed fools stirring the pot so they can win Mr. Popularity contests.

Pick one.


Preach it sister. Two thumbs up

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
Flamespar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#210 - 2011-09-07 23:10:09 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
It is a interesting question.

CSM proposes negative PR campain, and all the remafications it entails.

However when the players say wait a minute that is not what we want how about we remove CSM instead.

The players are told.
Wait for the next election, CSM can't be touched.
Interesting.


Great summary. Not that I think CSM should be completetly removed. But my point was: what avenues do we actually have for expressing our dissent in a effective way if you don't think you are being represented by CSM.

Especially since some of the responses in this thread have basically gone 'OMG I don't like this topic therefor it is a troll.'
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2011-09-07 23:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I suggest the OP does some reading on political systems. Democracy is the best system humanity has managed to put into practise. One of the side effects is that if you don't like the results you have very options other than to attempt to ensure the results are different next time.


However, when the vast majority have no idea what's even going on or who or what the CSM is, thus don't even realize there's a chance to vote, you're going to wind up with people being elected by the loud minority.

That never gives good results.


Lets be clear here. The entire process of the CSM is pretty poorly executed.

I cant fault the power blocks for using the system in place to their advantage. They are being intelligent about it.

The entire election process for the CSM is part of the problem. Just as it is with the corruption that is the AT tournament. The whole thing was a cobbled together Frankenstein process with little thought and no exposure to the majority of the players.

The whole process is not given very good attention or exposure by CCP. So the large groups of organized people are able to form concentrated voting blocks that are very effective. Effectively the corps are political parties within the game.

I think the only reason I knew of the CSM elections was due to the fact I check the forums. Most players will never even know there is a CSM until told of it by anther player. And CCP does not give new players a heads up about it when they join the game either.

Again getting mad at goons or whomever is silly since its CCP that created the system they are working withing the confines of to begin with. Its just not their fault. Though I do feel the claim teh represent the players at large is dubious. Though it be somewhat true, they are themselves players after all. I do not feel they really address the issues of the larger population. And if people barely check the forums as we are constantly told. Then how would they even know who the CSM representatives are and who to talk to about issues they have.

Its just a bloody mess cause its another half arsed thing CCP did.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#212 - 2011-09-07 23:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


In total, you should expect to make 30-40 mill ISK per hour with little difficulty, just blitzing.

What ISK/hr do you get from the Veldspar?


wow, what kind of ship you using to do that? Best I can afford to lose (number one rule of EVE) is a Drake right now. I cant run in and blitz (as per guide4eve.com's instructions on doing that) and not get killed usually lol

I get 13 mil - eh I duinno I dont usually watch the clock, next time I dump Ill watch



started filling it at 2258, full at 2330
so about a half hour. so 26 mil or so an hour. I was never seeing that an hour doing lvl IVs.
Hell maybe Im just fail lol but Im doing what gets me the most money. AND if they decide to nerf IVs to 0.0 or make them not economically viable to do, guess what Ill be doing instead?

Anyway, Ive never looked at how much I make an hour because Im not is some kind of huge hurry to make it. Its not like I have 5 hours to make a certain quantity of money or I lose the game or something lol

Flamespar wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
It is a interesting question.

CSM proposes negative PR campain, and all the remafications it entails.

However when the players say wait a minute that is not what we want how about we remove CSM instead.

The players are told.
Wait for the next election, CSM can't be touched.
Interesting.


Great summary. Not that I think CSM should be completetly removed. But my point was: what avenues do we actually have for expressing our dissent in a effective way if you don't think you are being represented by CSM.

Especially since some of the responses in this thread have basically gone 'OMG I don't like this topic therefor it is a troll.'


express dissent to them, and here. Thats really it. If they do something we dont like we have to wait till the next election. Theres no recall process. Kinda have to be honest that I wonder if that wasnt intentional. It would make far more sense if the CSM was being set up as a PR trick pony for there to be no way to stop them than it would for anything else imo.

I may be jaded but Im somehow not surprised Mittens didnt debase himself enough to answer the mail I shot him lol Hell I wasnt expecting a response from any of them honestly
RougeOperator wrote:
Dont get mad at the Goons they didnt come up with the process, theyre just exploiting it.

Lol

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2011-09-08 01:11:25 UTC
Vin Hellsing wrote:
To be frank, I like to talk to people on a face to face basis through conversations, and none of the CSM have made themselves available for that.


That is unfortunately an unrealistic expectation. There are thousands of you, and only 14 of us. I already spend 2-3 hours a day on CSM activities minimum, so blocking off time for F2F / 1on1 conversations in realtime or chat is hard to do. Chat is incredibly distracting (most of us do have RL jobs, after all!), and it's bad enough just having to monitor the CCP/CSM channel, because the devs are constantly posting pornographic kitten photos and trolling Mittens -- when he comes on EVE-O and tells someone to kill himself, it's usually because a dev has just cast aspersions upon his manhood.

Plus we'd get really tired of saying "We can't tell you anything" because a lot of the questions that you'll ask will be NDA related (obviously, they're the interesting questions!)

You can join CSM Public in-game and if we notice something and can answer it, we usually will, but please understand our limitations.

Forum and email discussions are much easier, because they are asynchronous and can be dealt with as time permits.

We occasionally are able to hold live Q&A sessions, such as during spotlights and live EVE-Radio shows, but they take a fair amount of coordination beforehand.

PS: parts of the above are Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#214 - 2011-09-08 01:14:59 UTC
This happens

no just kidding. I cant believe ppl think thats on par with eve lol

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Vin Hellsing
#215 - 2011-09-08 01:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vin Hellsing
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Vin Hellsing wrote:
To be frank, I like to talk to people on a face to face basis through conversations, and none of the CSM have made themselves available for that.


That is unfortunately an unrealistic expectation. There are thousands of you, and only 14 of us. I already spend 2-3 hours a day on CSM activities minimum, so blocking off time for F2F / 1on1 conversations in realtime or chat is hard to do. Chat is incredibly distracting (most of us do have RL jobs, after all!), and it's bad enough just having to monitor the CCP/CSM channel, because the devs are constantly posting pornographic kitten photos and trolling Mittens -- when he comes on EVE-O and tells someone to kill himself, it's usually because a dev has just cast aspersions upon his manhood.

Plus we'd get really tired of saying "We can't tell you anything" because a lot of the questions that you'll ask will be NDA related (obviously, they're the interesting questions!)

You can join CSM Public in-game and if we notice something and can answer it, we usually will, but please understand our limitations.

Forum and email discussions are much easier, because they are asynchronous and can be dealt with as time permits.

We occasionally are able to hold live Q&A sessions, such as during spotlights and live EVE-Radio shows, but they take a fair amount of coordination beforehand.

PS: parts of the above are Twisted


I'm working on establishing my own series of Q&A's with CCP as well. Thanks for the heads up on the CSM channel!

P.S. CCP needs to stop trying to muzzle the CSM. It's not really acceptable, and it's hurting CCP's credibility. Sooner or later, Hilmar will have to realize this. This is becoming more and more like EVE's "NGE" moment, if you ask me, and I am worried.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#216 - 2011-09-08 01:37:25 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Some of you may be wondering what kind of things we get up to in our internal forum discussions with CCP.

A summary of prior and currently ongoing CSM/CCP discussion topics is now available on the wiki.

Your tax ISK at work, etc.


Eh...

Quote:
POS Fuel pellets.


What's this? Shocked

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#217 - 2011-09-08 01:47:03 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:

so about a half hour. so 26 mil or so an hour. I was never seeing that an hour doing lvl IVs.


then you fail. hard. either you're not looting/salvaging, not counting that income. or your lvl IV mission ship is just ass.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
iKill Giants
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2011-09-08 01:57:09 UTC
I've never gotten involved in these kinds of threads, and I haven't bothered to fully read this one (skimmed), but there is an observation I just want to put out there.

You say nullsec is over-represented in the CSM. I agree. But with the current election mechanics, nullsec will continue to win, because practically nowhere else but nullsec do large alliances/coalitions form with the organization to get their entire active playerbase to vote for their candidate.

It doesn't matter which alliance, what matters is that I would bet every ISK in my wallet the majority vote of the nullsec CSM members came from their respective alliances or coalitions. As long as alliance votes continue to count, I do not think the other areas of space will begin to be represented.

As well, nullsec is where there are more people playing EVE actively, and who are experienced and know about the CSM in the first place. Those in the smaller alliances vote for the nullsec candidate because they are the ones who know the nullsec candidate exists.


I propose a system of Chairs. There are several required positions within the CSM that must be filled, a certain number of members for certain professions and areas. Then it would be less so "everyone vote for anyone who seems like he might represent you okay or who told you to vote for him" and more "miners vote for the miner who represents you", "wormhole people vote for the wormholer who best represents you".

With a system of required representation, no area or profession would be outspoken. The CSM would stop being a collection of people who are in a position to be elected, and more a selection of people who represent EVE as a whole, picked by the specific groups they primarily represent.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#219 - 2011-09-08 01:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
(most of us do have RL jobs, after all!),


Whoa what job you have that allows you to fly off to iceland ranomly?

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


Forum and email discussions are much easier, because they are asynchronous and can be dealt with as time permits.



Tell Mittens to check his in game mail Im betting theres more than there was lol
Might wanna reply to them given you all were tellin us to mail you... thats not gonna look good when he doesnt respond rofl

Richard Hammond II wrote:
Tarikla wrote:


You know , if you look at the Eve population , we should get 1/4 0.0 , 1/2 HS (both high-sec missions runners , industrials , ect ect ect) and thus 1/8 low sec and 1/8 Wh's . You can't ignore that without all the HS 'dwellers" as you name them :


Finally, hell I BEEN asking for someone with a population distribution graph all along this argument. Can you post it?


BTW.. the graph?
Im not being a douche, Im being serious. You DO have one right?

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#220 - 2011-09-08 02:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Denidil wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:

so about a half hour. so 26 mil or so an hour. I was never seeing that an hour doing lvl IVs.


then you fail. hard. either you're not looting/salvaging, not counting that income. or your lvl IV mission ship is just ass.


lol youre more interested in insulting ppl than reading...

I said FOR ME several times...
yes, my skills are ****, but FOR ME

Ill help you here

FOR ME

IN MY CASE

TO THE EXCLUSION OF OTHERS

since you cant seem to grasp that

FOR ME mining makes more money than missioning lol

Jeez IM not even the one that said it way to attack the wrong guy

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes