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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Constance Skye
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#741 - 2013-05-09 19:19:16 UTC
Can you add more drone space to the Rokh. More bandwidth would be great.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#742 - 2013-05-09 19:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Deerin wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Deerin wrote:

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.


2 rigor on a phoon? oh wait, we cant do that..That would open that gap you just tried to close with the raven and phoon.



You can but it is pointless. You'll be applying your damage to the fullest due to multiple TP's anyway...and when you do that Raven just has the advantage of 4BCS vs 2 BCS on phoon. Rig slots are better served as tanking rigs on phoon....or damage rigs if you love taking risks.


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank. So using them for torps or cruise will hinder the ship.

Edit-

On a brighter note, if they properly buff the navy raven, it will be a monster. No doubt the navy phoon will be ridiculous, but even the golem with the new cruise will be nice.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#743 - 2013-05-09 20:25:14 UTC
Hagika wrote:


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank.


How would you describe the Typhoon's tank?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#744 - 2013-05-09 21:54:02 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank.


How would you describe the Typhoon's tank?


The math was done, it was only slightly lower than the ravens new tank. What separates the two is that the phoon has a battlecruiser sig?

Surely that wouldnt play into how well the ship deals with incoming damage at all.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#745 - 2013-05-09 22:24:59 UTC

indeed, the armour phoon can tank simmilarly to a raven, technically speaking its around 1k less but that's kind of quibbleish at this stage.

the problem however is at that point the typhoon isn't faster than a raven, its marginally slower and marginally less agile. it can gain more tank over a raven but does so at a significant impact of its firepower. for my earlier quoted numbers i was referencing a dual plated phoon with trip armour rigs, an enam and a damage control II, allowing it to sport the three BCU's to compete with the raven's own firepower (beating it if the typhoon uses the 4 heavy drones for its entire dronebay, coming out lower if it uses mediums relative to the raven).

the issue however becomes that if you choose to weaken the ravens torpedo dps down to match that of the typhoon (3 BCU's) and add a nanofibre internal structure the ravens MWD speed jumps up to 1125; 137m/s faster than the typhoon doing the same.

the shield typhoon shores up this difference of course, but the issue with the shield typhoon is its inability to mount a serious tank at all. 79 thousand EHP on a battleship is horendously low, even compared to the 100k EHP raven. this doesn't even consider the various LSE's and shield rigs having its signature bloomed up to 430+ taking it well above and beyond a battlecruiser's signature radius and making it highly vulnerable to enemy fire.

the thing is a shield raven is only 2m/s slower than an armour typhoon sub microwarp and is 40m/s faster when microwarping. this is without a nano and considering how fragile a shield phoon is relative to both the armour phoon and the raven i have serious doubts about its ability to survive engagements, even with its extra drone damage augmentors giving it a bit more kick its going to die REALLY quickly.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Jitoru
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#746 - 2013-05-09 23:44:31 UTC
Quote:
And dont you see the cheesiness here? why should the Rokh outtank, outdamage and outrange the hyperion if they have the same role? the problem still is; the Rokh wants to be resilient Blasterplatform and resilient sniper. If i fit my Hyperion with Railguns, why should she be inferior to the rokh (apart from the different slotlayout and the different tanks). Why should the Hyperion not be equal to the rokh if fitted correctly? Both are using the same weapon System.


the cheese is entirely relative, as while the rokh represents the better fleet sniper (a job the DOMINIX, not the hyperion is intended to make use of) the hyperion is a far superior small gang battleship with its good cap stability, powerful ability to rep locally, its strong drone bay and superior speed.

the rokh is a ship of the line, the hyperion is a man-o-war ^^

Lol!. Actually you should read my posts more:
"[...] if they have the same role? [...] Man... whats your problem? i clearly said, you should distribute the role and let the ships do their jobs... if the hyp and the rokh dont have the same role... dont even dare to argue about them filling different niches... its just laughable... the whole thought of not considering roles is stupid, because of the whole tiericide tactics...

The rokh does atm have a role of a fleet sniper, let her keep it. But we should clearly demand a ECM overhaul... and in addition reconsidering all the ecm boats of the caldari (even if it hurts in a way... case of the falcon for example)

hopefully we some day get playable caldari
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#747 - 2013-05-10 00:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Hagika wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank.


How would you describe the Typhoon's tank?


The math was done, it was only slightly lower than the ravens new tank. What separates the two is that the phoon has a battlecruiser sig? Surely that wouldnt play into how well the ship deals with incoming damage at all.


I don't think sig is particularly important at these scales. Small and med weapons are already tracking both ships without any trouble. It matters somewhat for large ones, but I don't think it's a huge deal.

As for tank itself. I don't think I saw that post. Did it compare EHP only? What about ASBs and RR? What were your fits?
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#748 - 2013-05-10 00:54:37 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Deerin wrote:

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.


2 rigor on a phoon? oh wait, we cant do that..That would open that gap you just tried to close with the raven and phoon.



You can but it is pointless. You'll be applying your damage to the fullest due to multiple TP's anyway...and when you do that Raven just has the advantage of 4BCS vs 2 BCS on phoon. Rig slots are better served as tanking rigs on phoon....or damage rigs if you love taking risks.


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank. So using them for torps or cruise will hinder the ship.

Edit-

On a brighter note, if they properly buff the navy raven, it will be a monster. No doubt the navy phoon will be ridiculous, but even the golem with the new cruise will be nice.


I have had a look at the Golem with the new Cruise Missile changes, it is one nasty son of a ***** if you fit it right, precision's will obliterate player frigates.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#749 - 2013-05-10 05:54:51 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Deerin wrote:

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.


2 rigor on a phoon? oh wait, we cant do that..That would open that gap you just tried to close with the raven and phoon.



You can but it is pointless. You'll be applying your damage to the fullest due to multiple TP's anyway...and when you do that Raven just has the advantage of 4BCS vs 2 BCS on phoon. Rig slots are better served as tanking rigs on phoon....or damage rigs if you love taking risks.


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank. So using them for torps or cruise will hinder the ship.

Edit-

On a brighter note, if they properly buff the navy raven, it will be a monster. No doubt the navy phoon will be ridiculous, but even the golem with the new cruise will be nice.


Rigor Raven is a PvE concept as stated above....and for that concept Raven's tank is not weak. Phoon actually needs to devote all rig slots to tanking to reach the "weak" tank of raven.....and when it does it is 2 bcs vs 4 bcs.

I don't really get the rage on raven vs phoon. One is shield tanker one is armor tanker use them as your skills permit. They are not reallly stepping on each others toes. Performance wise they are similar with phoon being slightly better for PvP and raven being slightly better for PvE. If you are in a shield gang use raven if you are in an armor gang use phoon.

I honestly hope that they don't mess current Navy Phoon. It is an unique ship that can be fit so many different ways.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#750 - 2013-05-10 10:03:32 UTC
Deerin wrote:
[quote=Hagika]I don't really get the rage on raven vs phoon. One is shield tanker one is armor tanker use them as your skills permit. They are not reallly stepping on each others toes. Performance wise they are similar with phoon being slightly better for PvP and raven being slightly better for PvE. If you are in a shield gang use raven if you are in an armor gang use phoon.

I honestly hope that they don't mess current Navy Phoon. It is an unique ship that can be fit so many different ways.


Yeah, that's all about some guys thinking that the Phoon is a better Torp plattform which clearly turns the Raven into a completely obsolete piece o' crap. Roll

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#751 - 2013-05-11 00:24:28 UTC
3-4 slot shield tank + tackle = where the hell have you been all my life

<3 new Raven.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#752 - 2013-05-11 07:12:19 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:


Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank.


How would you describe the Typhoon's tank?


The math was done, it was only slightly lower than the ravens new tank. What separates the two is that the phoon has a battlecruiser sig? Surely that wouldnt play into how well the ship deals with incoming damage at all.


I don't think sig is particularly important at these scales. Small and med weapons are already tracking both ships without any trouble. It matters somewhat for large ones, but I don't think it's a huge deal.

As for tank itself. I don't think I saw that post. Did it compare EHP only? What about ASBs and RR? What were your fits?


Sig Radius does matter alot for damage application for missiles. What the h*ll do you think that explosion radius is compared to?
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#753 - 2013-05-11 16:22:07 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:


Sig Radius does matter alot for damage application for missiles. What the h*ll do you think that explosion radius is compared to?



oh its certainly important, but at battleship scale its "relatively" unimportant, once you consider that the only weapons which have trouble applying full damage to battleships are other battleship or capital weapon systems.

its important, but relatively unimportant at this stage ^^

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#754 - 2013-05-12 13:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sal Landry
Constance Skye wrote:
Can you add more drone space to the Rokh. More bandwidth would be great.

Considering that CCP just removed bandwidth from the single Caldari T1 hull that could use Heavies/Sentries, that's unlikely to happen. I just hope they don't **** the CNR when they get to navy battleships.

Edit: I forgot the Scorpion had 75 bw too, but who wants to fly scorpions anyway
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#755 - 2013-05-13 08:33:02 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:


Sig Radius does matter alot for damage application for missiles. What the h*ll do you think that explosion radius is compared to?



oh its certainly important, but at battleship scale its "relatively" unimportant, once you consider that the only weapons which have trouble applying full damage to battleships are other battleship or capital weapon systems.

its important, but relatively unimportant at this stage ^^


Exactly this. As seen in this thread, it's not hugely important even for cruise, because the explosion radius of cruise is so much smaller than a typical BS signature. It matters more for torps and their 338 m radius. And capital weapons ofc, but while blap dreads are ofc a big thing, I don't think we should put to much weight on the ease of Raven/Phoon blapping.

In contrast, a "small" frigate sig will result in not only increased mitigation of damage from other frigate weapons, but also from larger ones.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#756 - 2013-05-13 10:40:07 UTC
Cool with all these new changes CCP.


But have you put any thought at all into the scanning and probing mechanic for this game?


Entire Caldari range of battleships have range as bonus. But in reality that is a joke! Anything trying to fight at range are scanned down in 5 sec, and the entire range bonus is nothing but a cool number/stat on a paper.

Anyone home at CCP?

Helloooooooooo?




Thought not.....
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#757 - 2013-05-13 10:45:04 UTC
TZeer wrote:
Cool with all these new changes CCP.


But have you put any thought at all into the scanning and probing mechanic for this game?


Entire Caldari range of battleships have range as bonus. But in reality that is a joke! Anything trying to fight at range are scanned down in 5 sec, and the entire range bonus is nothing but a cool number/stat on a paper.

Anyone home at CCP?

Helloooooooooo?

Thought not.....


indeed although the Rokh is technically a brawler the range bonus makes sense on it.
Would be nice if they made the scorpion more like its navy version maybe minus the resist bonus for a explosion velocity bonus.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#758 - 2013-05-13 11:07:36 UTC
Would be cool if they actually fixed the scanning mechanic. It's been in a "derp" state since they introduced it in a new form 2-3? years ago.

For those who don't know or remember, it used to take around 23 seconds for a prober to scan down a spot. In a big fleet fight where you get lag, TIDI, and what not, 5 vs 23 seconds is not much. But for smaller gangs, and smaller engagements it opened up a another level of gameplay.

- Putting your ship on the grid, didn't mean you where scanned down and tackled before you had been able to realign.

- Smaller gangs had a way to fight much larger gangs. They couldn't engage them up in the face. But with smart positioning, you could engage lone targets that drifted of the main group. Not always it worked. You only had a limited time to play before the blob was inbound. But it was possible.

- Saw some clever use of the scorps way way back in time, in the opening part of the fight. Two groups engaged each other. At the same time one of them had a small group of scorps coming in at their max range, behind they main group. Just out of reach for the hostiles, but well within their ECM range. Can forget about that today, would have been scanned down in 5 sec.


But it's like talking to a wall.
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#759 - 2013-05-14 05:08:12 UTC
not too sure about the new raven. changing a high for a med slot makes sense but on paper it looks like its between roles as it has lost a chunk of tank but its still not manoeuvrable to make up for it
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#760 - 2013-05-15 20:19:52 UTC
bump