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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#781 - 2013-05-22 17:23:53 UTC
Rise

Do you not see how odd the Rokh is having a attack role type bonus being range? and having a brawler role bonus of resist?
Also please reduce its mass and buff its speed its meant to be a brawler with blasters for christ sake.. ..

Also 500 sig radius on a shield tanking ship is that necessary really?????

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#782 - 2013-05-22 17:45:43 UTC
Lool do you realy think Ccp cares about caldari I bet they doesnt even have a char to fly these ships all of them are matars and some gallente.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#783 - 2013-05-22 17:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
still not sure why you keep the scorp as it is .at a higher price than the falcon ... and less effective is it really worth keeping as a ecm only ship? .. why not at least split its bonuses
- ecm strength/ecm burst range
- ROF bonus
- switch a mid to a high
- buff its tank

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#784 - 2013-05-22 18:17:09 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
still not sure why you keep the scorp as it is .at a higher price than the falcon ... and less effective is it really worth keeping as a ecm only ship? .. why not at least split its bonuses
- ecm strength/ecm burst range
- ROF bonus
- switch a mid to a high
- buff its tank

Armor tanked Cap sharing full-on rainbow rack twin Scorpions are actually pretty viable, and less likely to have to warp out if someone realizes they're within drone control range.

Though their use is pretty situational. And by pretty situational, I mean very.

Save the drones!

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#785 - 2013-05-22 18:29:28 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
still not sure why you keep the scorp as it is .at a higher price than the falcon ... and less effective is it really worth keeping as a ecm only ship? .. why not at least split its bonuses
- ecm strength/ecm burst range
- ROF bonus
- switch a mid to a high
- buff its tank

Armor tanked Cap sharing full-on rainbow rack twin Scorpions are actually pretty viable, and less likely to have to warp out if someone realizes they're within drone control range.

Though their use is pretty situational. And by pretty situational, I mean very.


very situational indeed ... it just seems like caldari are hampered with losing a battleship that does nothing better than a t1 cruiser can do (blackbird) . .. where as say something like navy scorp or another Hybrid ship would have more common use and add variety... besides battleships are meant to be dps/tanky ships.

I Think maybe changing it to a 10% optimal range 7.5% tracking Hybrid Attack battleship would actually add something to the game.
Rokh could lose the optimal range bonus for a damage bonus.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#786 - 2013-05-22 19:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
still not sure why you keep the scorp as it is .at a higher price than the falcon ... and less effective is it really worth keeping as a ecm only ship? .. why not at least split its bonuses
- ecm strength/ecm burst range
- ROF bonus
- switch a mid to a high
- buff its tank

Armor tanked Cap sharing full-on rainbow rack twin Scorpions are actually pretty viable, and less likely to have to warp out if someone realizes they're within drone control range.

Though their use is pretty situational. And by pretty situational, I mean very.

why a whole ship should be forced to such a lame role? sounds like a very poorly designed /balanced ship

give it +15% opt/falloff bonus to damps or tracking disruptors/lvl and it will be an usable ship
imho even some total random bonuses would make this ship better
Zanquis
Hynix Galactic Industry
#787 - 2013-05-24 20:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zanquis
I feel that while these changes are a step in the right direction, the end result will still be that Caldari will be the least desirable of pvp ships. This can especially be seen when you compare the Caldari Odyssey versions against their other counterparts such as the revised Gallente.

I share you view that Caldari ships had always been on the right track with their diversity. However the main difficulty with these ships is that their intended advantages are not very pronounced and difficult to get a hold of. More detail and suggested changes I will get into with some detail.

Rokh

Role
The spirit of this ship is a tough but cumbersome boat that has the ability to use range as it's main weapon to threaten the battlefield.

Why the Rokh Needs a bit of a change
The Rokh has traditionally suffered for the impracticality of it's intended role because of the evolution of the game, and tactics. It has significant weaknesses in critical areas where it hopes to find strength and therefore find's itself a very expensive second or third choice in most scenario's. Until the evolution of the Blaster Rokh this ship found little use at all on the battlefield. In order to look at this argument further, lets examine the potential roles this ship is can be used.

The problem with the primary advantage of range...
This advantage is fantastic for ships that have the natural ability to dictate the range of the engagement. However it is out of place on a battleship class ship since they are slow and unable to dictate range. It would not be ideal to allow a battleship to have the ability to dictate range either since it would provide a significant imbalance to the game as a result.

As a Sniper
The ship has a fantastic bonus to optimal range on one of the longest range weapon systems available, Rails. However it is hampered by the nature of most sniping operations. The concept of fleet sniping in eve is to use overwhelming team Alpha strike to suddenly overwhelm a focus target's defenses before they can receive support, and keep the range advantage for safety by frequently repositioning as needed on the battlefield. This has generally made two points critical in this role; maneuverability and Alpha strike.

The Rokh has no damage bonus, and sports a weapon system that depends on Rate of Fire rather than Alpha for it's damage. Having no significant advantage in maneuverability over it's counterparts, and ranking third in Alpha strike out of 4 long ranged weapon systems, the Rokh find's itself an unlikely choice for such operations especially considering it's price tag. While it can theoretically attack from ranges far greater than any other ship in the game, that bonus is of little use since the damage is so light with very little Alpha, it finds little use in a fleet engagement especially since few ships would be able to support it due to the unique range.

As a Mid to Close range Ship of the Line
The Rokh has a great range bonus, however the two weapon systems it can be applied to are the two extremes of eve with super short range, and super long range. Since this combat generally takes place within 20-50 KM at the engagement start much of the Rokh's natural advantage seems watered down because while it does gain a range advantage over it's counterparts, it is not enough to produce a meaningful advantage.

Mid ranged fleet situations are generally dominated by close range ships who maneuver around to apply extreme dps, or long range ships that can hit the main battlefield without leaving support range of their fleet. While the Rokh would gain a natural advantage here it is not that significant since an excess of range on a Rail boat provides no advantage. With a blaster boat sustained damage is king unless you can gain a significant range advantage over your peers and a 2.3-3.2km advantage over it's Gallante counterparts makes this bonus generally wasted.

Suggested Changes
Change Bonuses to "+10% Optimal Range and Falloff per level, +4% Shield Resistances per level
(Net change +50% Falloff)


What this Does

  • Improves Rokh's threat range, while it will never be the highest damage boat it would be able to apply it's damage a much larger variety of situations and makes the ship a passive anti sniper. It can also use higher damage ammo to convert some of that excess range into damage and get closer to it's peers.
  • Threat range improvement would also allow Blaster Rokh to apply damage significantly sooner than it's higher dps counterparts making it more flexible in fleet situations.
  • It would be possible to snipe with slightly higher damage ammo with module assistance


Technical Differences
The Rokh would gain extra falloff to further it's strength with range. With the way fall off works, on T2 450 rails that would add another 4.95 KM to the effective range (Optimal + 33% of Falloff range for a hit rate over 90%) or 15 km at first falloff (50% hit rate). For Blasters that would work out to an additional 2.58KM to the effective range of T2 Mega blasters or 7.81KM to the max range.

EDIT:
To clarify the differences between the Gallante range and the Rokh range today vs after the suggested change I am posting the differences.
Rail range advantage increases from 18Km to 22.95Km (+4.95Km)
Rail 1st Falloff advantage increases from 18Km to 33Km (+15Km)
Blaster range advantage increases from 4.22Km to 6.8Km (+2.58Km)
Blaster 1st Falloff advantage increases from 4.22Km to 12.03Km (+7.81Km)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#788 - 2013-05-24 22:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Zanquis wrote:
Until the evolution of the Blaster Rokh this ship found little use at all on the battlefield.

...the Rokh find's itself an unlikely choice for such operations especially considering it's price tag.


It's the most commonly used fleet battleship, and it's used with rails. Straight
Aglais
Ice-Storm
Trigger Happy.
#789 - 2013-05-24 23:35:43 UTC
I'm guessing the current Raven stats that are in the thread here are as of now what's going to be launching with Odyssey. How disappointing.

It's because it's the designated L4 ship, isn't it. By making the Raven good at PvP, you'd be imbalancing it in terms of PvE performance as well or something. So you're going to leave it utterly mediocre in every way that counts, and outclassed by more or less every other battleship in the entire ******* game. Great.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#790 - 2013-05-25 10:45:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

CALDARI

Rokh:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% to large Hybrid Turret optimal range
+4% Shield resistances per level (-1% per level)

Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 5L; 8 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 15000 PWG, 780 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 7000 / 7500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 89 / .136 / 105300000 / 19.85s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 120km / 90 / 9
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 500

Raven:

The (cavalry)Raven is becoming the Caldari attack battleship. Its bonuses were a natural fit already, and although its giving up some base hitpoints, the substantial increase to speed and added mid should open up plenty of new opportunities for Caldari missile pilots without hurting anyone who was already happy using it.

Its also gaining power grid and CPU output so that torp focused fits and fits that want to use propulsion mods are more easily accessible. Keep in mind that we will be taking a more detailed look at battleship sized missile systems in the near future.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 7M(+1), 5L; 4 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 11000 PWG(+1500), 750(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(-500) / 5800(-841) / 6400(-241)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1160s / 4.74
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113(+19) / .12(-..52s (-1.1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 120km / 115 / 9
Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 420(-50)

Scorpion:

The Scorpion, while being an oddity in the battleship line up, seems fairly happy. We have adjusted its hitpoints slightly, so they would roughly match the attack set, but otherwise there are no changes.

UPDATE: Based on player feedback we are going to let the Scorpion trade one of its high slots for another low slot.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range
25% bonus to ECM Burst range

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 8M, 5L(+1); 4 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 750 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+359) / 5500 / 6500(+1031)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .116 / 103600000 / 16.66s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 120km / 110 / 8
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 480


Dear CCP Rise,
can you check with CCP Ytterbium if my proposals would break the game if you would change them?
What I did was to increase the maximum locking range of all three, the number of targets they can lock at once and the scan resolution to a more reasonable values for ewar, attacking and combat.
I see no reason why Caldari should suffer from inferiority at battleship level in form of super slow locking speeds or short range sensors.
I am also not quite sure why battleships (not only Caldari, all of them) can only lock 7 targets at any given time and hacs can have 8?
I bolded my proposals and would like a comment, even a short one if this was too much or at least at the edge of reasonable.
My line of thought was that long(er) range vessels should be able to benefit from that range without 3 scripted sensor boosters with that (upcoming) pricetag.

What do you think?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Sumthinburnin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#791 - 2013-05-26 23:59:58 UTC
are the devs even reading this? not one reply or am I crazy?

Rokh T3 = Strat cruiser like mods.

I do like the idea of a mod that swaps out 1 large cannon mount for multiple smaller mounts. to make it more usefull though I would go with
4 meds for 1 large
8 small for 1 large

this would bring u more in line with traditional battleships and make them far more feared than they are now.

also if a weapon system has more than 1 gun in it, shouldn't it use more ammo AND potentially cause that much more damage?
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#792 - 2013-05-27 00:05:12 UTC
Sumthinburnin wrote:
are the devs even reading this? not one reply or am I crazy?

Rokh T3 = Strat cruiser like mods.

I do like the idea of a mod that swaps out 1 large cannon mount for multiple smaller mounts. to make it more usefull though I would go with
4 meds for 1 large
8 small for 1 large

this would bring u more in line with traditional battleships and make them far more feared than they are now.

also if a weapon system has more than 1 gun in it, shouldn't it use more ammo AND potentially cause that much more damage?

That is a terrible idea, even without the bonus both small and medium guns with that large of tradeoff from large guns would put out multiple times the dps of the large guns, with the bonus.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Sumthinburnin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#793 - 2013-05-27 10:47:18 UTC
limit the number of swaps.

2 meds sets of 4, 1 or 2 sets of small at 8

Yes the DPS would be huge, really only at close range.
Long range with the mains would perhaps be lowered, unless these guys learn how to make the large turrets with actual multi gun systems. (2, 3, 4 guns in 1 turret, firing 2, 3, 4 shells with their damage all counting crazy right I know lol)

they are BATTLESHIPS they should be dangerous, deadly scary death machines.

Who ever thought it would be a good idea to make BS weak was perhaps not well informed.

Battleships should not ever be easy prey for lesser vessels.

Ewersmen
Perkone
Caldari State
#794 - 2013-05-27 13:22:40 UTC
Battleships in eve are all bad .....when you see one you should **** your pants but do you ?? NOOOO

Give them all double what they have and they will be awesome......wow making the raven even worse WHY??

Even marauders ....I have a golem ...and really the tank is shite ....dps is awesome of course ....

A lot of the changes in eve atm are great but the battleship changes are weak ....give all thet1 bs more tank.



Parcheesie Sauce
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#795 - 2013-05-28 00:54:09 UTC
Not sure about that resist tweak, I know it's only supposed to be applied to the rokh and the abaddon at the moment; however I'm a little worried this will end with that tweak affecting all the amaar and caldari ships with this resist bonus, and while it's not huge, it's deffinatly enough to make a difference.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
Trigger Happy.
#796 - 2013-05-28 01:17:15 UTC
So I got an idea. You know what battleships could probably benefit from, given that they're much more costly as of Odyssey, and in general, aren't worth it anymore (ESPECIALLY the Raven)?

Role bonuses. Let's slap on more bonuses to battleships- they're expensive, they're a huge investment. They should be worth it. Let's keep it at two racial battleship levelled skills, and then one (Or maybe in certain cases, two) role bonuses to further help the ship along and achieve what it is you're trying to accomplish with them. As an example, I will spew out a Raven as I hope to see it:

Raven:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Role bonus: 30% decrease to 100MN microwarpdrive capacitor consumption and -10% to MJD cooldown time

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 7M(+1), 5L; 4 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 11000 PWG(+1500), 775(+75) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 5700(-941) / 6400(-241)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1160s / 4.74
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 114(+20) / .12(-.008) / 99300000 / 16.52s (-1.1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 410(-60)

Of course, similar things would be happening to all other battleships- I'd imagine that the MWD role bonus would be at home on practically any attack battleship, but the second chunk of it could vary with each hull. I feel that this particular set of alterations I've made to the Raven in particular would actually make it not easily the worst attack battleship- it's shields are greatly lacking, it doesn't have the CPU to fit active tank and torpedoes (Well, you CAN, but... You enter the embarassing realm in which cruise missiles do more damage than torps somehow), and in addition, the ship can also better pull off it's apparent desire to be an extension of the Caldari attack ship line, having a useable MWD that you can actually reach your top speed without having to burn out half of your capacitor.

"Doesn't that step on the role of ABCs though?" No. No it doesn't. ABCs are far faster than any Raven I've managed to think up, and have cruiser tank.

"Won't this make the Raven too easily able to escape from all the other battleships?" Maybe. Cruisers? No. Frigates? Hell no. If a small ship tackles you, depending on how a fight goes, you might be done.

"Why the extra meter per second?" 19 is an ugly and arbitrary prime number; 20 is not. It also is not significant enough to throw the Raven wildly off balance in terms of speed.

"7500 shields that's too much for an attack battleship!" Still significantly less than the Rokh's, and besides, part of the Caldari philosophy is 'what is fast, can you wear fast, is fast edible?' while having stronger than average shield tank available to them. Like the Caracal. Also, the Raven's shields have always sucked. No change would've fit more than "We're going to chunk it's shield, armor and health for NO reason".

Critique welcome, mindless flaming not.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#797 - 2013-05-28 13:21:16 UTC
100 MN MWD cap requirements are far too high. There's an argument that it should be reduced for all BS, countered by greater mobility differences between attack and combat BS, but your method would also give good results.

A speed change from 19 m/s to 20 m/s is arbitrary and balancing is not done in terms of pretty numbers (although if it was, I'd have primes everywhere).

I don't understand your criticism of the Raven. It and the Typhoon appear to be the only vaguely useful attack BS. The other attack BS are so far overshadowed by ABCs in the attack role that they appear worthless. The same criticism also applies to the Raven and Typhoon, but at least they have a range-flexible weapon system not found on ABCs that gives them some unique game space to exist in.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
Trigger Happy.
#798 - 2013-05-30 00:51:44 UTC
Final remark: If you're not going to do any further changing of stats on the Raven, at least change it's flavor text. Plenty of ships have more strength than the Raven, and literally every other battleship out there has more majesty due to this thing's compact 500something meter long axis- not to mention, it doesn't have powerful shields. At all. Everything about the flavor text is a lie.

:\
Tilo Rhywald
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#799 - 2013-05-30 10:50:57 UTC
Parcheesie Sauce wrote:
Not sure about that resist tweak, I know it's only supposed to be applied to the rokh and the abaddon at the moment; however I'm a little worried this will end with that tweak affecting all the amaar and caldari ships with this resist bonus, and while it's not huge, it's deffinatly enough to make a difference.


The change does apply to all ships with the resist bonus. All your fears come true.
Arrusses
Perkone
Caldari State
#800 - 2013-06-01 21:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrusses
So, let me get this strait. We have the race here in the most need of a bump, with almost legendary ineptitude in PvP, and here you come with your much anticipated balance. So what do we get?

We get the already confused Rokh exactly as it is, but with less tank

We get a raven that is outclassed by a mini ship in every way that matters for PvP (cap rate, mobility, drones, sig radius, mass, and of course damage application), and its already abysmal tank reduced.

And the Scorpion, which is "Healthy" in its role as a free kill, essentially unchanged.

Then, on top of it, they are nerfing the resist bonus; which effects essentially only Caldari and Amarr.

Boy, this will certainly make Caldari competitive!