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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#281 - 2013-04-27 13:33:27 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

These changes will not encourage more miners to head out to null sec.


Maybe not, but they're certainly encouraging the people already in nullsec to look at whether they should be mining.


Just a thought.

If folk in hi-sec mine, they are deemed by many null-sec - lo-sec folk to be bots, bot aspirant, not playing Eve properly etc.

Will the same rules apply to null-sec - lo-sec folk who now take up mining?


Miners don't get respect in null. They get treated like renters... renters wearing dresses.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#282 - 2013-04-27 13:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
Why do you believe Goonswarm should have more manufacturing capability than all of high sec?
They won't. Even if they did, so what?

They should have it because they choose to and because they can.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#283 - 2013-04-27 13:41:12 UTC
Need ice anomalies in WH !!

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#284 - 2013-04-27 13:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Frying Doom wrote:

first 450 is not between 500 and 700

Why do you believe Goonswarm should have more manufacturing capability than all of high sec?


1) Agreed but there weren't any with exactly 500, and 450 is a pretty massive number of slots anyway.

2) How about, because they actually earned them?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rujin Bellagraff
#285 - 2013-04-27 13:44:56 UTC
Regarding Ore/Ice mining. Many high-sec bears will be just that. No amount of convincing will move them over to low/null sec.
Some options they are probably considering:
- If one is a high-sec Ore miner, become an Ice miner. Join the throngs of pilots that will do the same, and learn to ninja the Ice belts that spawn, creating a monopoly for themselves.
- Join the high-sec incursion bear community.
- Unsub their high-sec bear accounts.

I would suspect that the percentage of miners that will actually move is less than 10%. Which means CCP is counting on the null-bears (bots) to pick up the slack. I am not a gambling person; so not sure of the outcome.

So CCP must have considered these 'risks vs. rewards', as they like to put it, and decided to move forward with these changes. Only time will tell if the change was good on their behalf (if their overall subscription goes up or down).
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries
Orion Consortium
#286 - 2013-04-27 13:55:58 UTC
Rujin Bellagraff wrote:
Regarding Ore/Ice mining. Many high-sec bears will be just that. No amount of convincing will move them over to low/null sec.
Some options they are probably considering:
- If one is a high-sec Ore miner, become an Ice miner. Join the throngs of pilots that will do the same, and learn to ninja the Ice belts that spawn, creating a monopoly for themselves.
- Join the high-sec incursion bear community.
- Unsub their high-sec bear accounts.

I would suspect that the percentage of miners that will actually move is less than 10%. Which means CCP is counting on the null-bears (bots) to pick up the slack. I am not a gambling person; so not sure of the outcome.

So CCP must have considered these 'risks vs. rewards', as they like to put it, and decided to move forward with these changes. Only time will tell if the change was good on their behalf (if their overall subscription goes up or down).



With these changes, ice prices will rise until mining ice is as profitable as mining the ABCs. When mining ice makes just as much as ore mining in 0.0, miners will switch. That means, those lucky enough to get to mine Ice in high sec will make as much ISK per hour as 0.0 miners.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#287 - 2013-04-27 13:58:15 UTC
Keep the grav sites as scan-able via probes. Make the ice sites so that they are also scan-able via probes.

1) From the Dev Blog it seems like you want people to leave high sec to mine ice. In particular you are hoping people will go to low sec. This is best served by giving someone an opportunity (not certainty) of protecting themselves while mining there. Advanced warning is functional as warning. EHP will only slow down the inevitable when you are being warp scrambled by a pirate.

2) Verrane Skarne mentioned the problems of enough content in C1 and C2 Wormholes. Mining becomes a possible source of activity there. A vigilant miner can work to be safer in that location currently. Making grav sites into anomalies just removes that content.

3) Probe scanning provides interaction opportunities. Lets look at three "user stories." Anomaly: Go to space -> Warp to anomaly. Probed sites: Go to space -> Use probes -> Warp to site. Probed site: Go to space -> talk to other miners -> warp to site. By putting ice in the probed sites you encourage interaction in game, which can lead to more fun.

4) Anomalies do not provide more use. As noted in 1 and 2 they actually remove uses. The concerns that someone would be frustrated trying to scan down sites can be significantly mitigated by making the ice and ore sites easier to probe down. This will reduce safety, but not eliminate it.

5) Some safety in null/low/wormholes will not translate to high sec. If you are constantly preparing to warp at the first sign of probes in high sec, then perhaps you can just go to a different space and make more money!
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#288 - 2013-04-27 14:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Liz Laser
Malcanis wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:


So when I do have a free moment, I spend it in high-sec. Except time spent in high-sec keeps becoming less and less valuable and I don't even login except to change skills.


Looks like someone moved your cheese.

Maybe consider adapting?


The only adaptation I can currently make when they move my cheese to null-sec is to quit a job or girlfriend so I have the time to join a corp, get comms situated, figure out the lay of the land, and emergency evac when something I have little control over causes leadership to decide we're now in a new region in a new bloc, and oh by the way, you'll need to get situated on all new comms and forums and auths.

But it is not just moving my cheese, it's also the lack of entertainment value in high-sec. Thus I have adapted by moving to SWTOR and haven't seen a reason to renew my sub which expires in June unless I lose a job/contract. Eve won't miss me, but if I'm any indicator of players' satisfaction with high-sec then God needs to create more PVPers, and fast. Hopefully I'm an anomaly and there will still be an Eve to come back to when I develop the time to be a null-sec resident again. But if I'm typical, that spells bad news until high-sec becomes more entertaining OR worthwhile.


I'll tell you for a fact you don't need to move to nullsec to make good ISK.

In fact if you only have 45-60 mins at a time for EVE, why on earth are you spending it mining?


I'm not spending it mining. I'm spending it in SWTOR. The limited possibilities available for small 45 minute chunks of time in Eve already lost my playing time (and were already going to lose my subscription when it runs out in June). It's not just the cheese, it's also the entertainment value. L4 missions or market games could still be worthwhile activity in that small chunk of time, but I'd rather do a SWTOR mission than an Eve mission. It isn't solely about cheese, they need to make high-sec more ENTERTAINING. I'm not unsubscribing because of Odyssey. I'm just not finding anything in Odyssey to change that decision, and I'm worried that the attempts to flog hi-sec players into null-sec are going to leave me no Eve to come back to when I finally regain the leisure to rejoin you and my other friends in null.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope that high-sec can be continually stepped on and still pay their subscription fees. What I'm SURE of though is they aren't heading to null the way the CSM and CCP think they will.

It would be very easy for CCP to prove me wrong or right and be able to inform the CSM of the changes in player behavior (or lack thereof).....

THIS week, do a census where you note which players are in hi-sec Measure 10 times including over the weekend. If on any of those censii they are in null or low-sec throw them out of that hi-sec count. Then 90 days after Odyssey do another 10 censii over a week and see how many of those same players get spotted in null. My prediction is it will be a very very very small number and will be due to other factors (like me regaining the leisure time for null-sec).

While I *hope* high-sec will endure and pay their subs, I'm *convinced* that you won't turn them into null-sec players by making high-sec less rewarding, less fun, or less afk-able.

Prove me wrong. You already have the flogging high-sec into null policies soon to be instituted, so just get them to make the measurements and be scientists about it rather than religious zealots about it. Measure your results and throw them in my face if you're right.

While I myself may sound like a zealot in how firmly convinced I am that you can't flog them into null-sec, just remember that *I* am the one asking for the measurements to be taken.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#289 - 2013-04-27 14:04:21 UTC
I allways thought moon mining should be like PI...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kor'el Izia
#290 - 2013-04-27 14:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kor'el Izia
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tippia wrote:
One question and one immediate observation:

How much ice will actually be in the new belts? On of the main problem with the current design is that they simply are too large — even at a decent depletion rate, they'd stick around forever.


Ice anom sizes are tuned so that high sec is capable of providing about 80% of the ice needs of New Eden right now, if fully mined.

Interesting, how much was previously mined in highsec?

Previously belt rats would visit the ice belts; going with the mentality Soundwave had with the new exploration sites(when you explore, you ought to explore not shoot) will rats be removed from the new ice anomalies aswell?
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#291 - 2013-04-27 14:14:41 UTC
It is good idea not to go overboard with manufacturing slots per station because eventual we should be able to build multiple outpost per system.

Hawing multiple stations would be bad idea right now because outpost are HP buffer in system conquest mechanics. But if sov mechanics a are changed in a way number of stations in system would not affect amount of HP to be grinned during conquest there is no reason limit of one outpost per system should remain.

So rather then giving current outposts ridiculous numbers of slots I would rather CCP make necessary changes to sov mechanics to allow for multiple outposts, and then passably even destructible outposts.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Garan Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#292 - 2013-04-27 14:17:50 UTC
With all these changes providing more 'balance' to null, and less reasons to rely on highsec, I'd say give wh's ice anomalies too.
Can't see a reason why not v0v
Frying Doom
#293 - 2013-04-27 14:18:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


2) How about, because they actually earned them?

You are proposing a massive shift in game balance and your reasoning is "because they actually earned them"

Maybe you could elaborate on how you believed they earned the right to between 36,000 and 50,400 manufacturing slots?

Yes I do believe they need more slots and even more than what has been proposed but 36,000 + slots?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#294 - 2013-04-27 14:26:38 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

2) How about, because they actually earned them?

You are proposing a massive shift in game balance
Not particularly, no. We're proposing a shift in where nullsec industrialists do their industry. The slots already exist. They're just not placed where they should be.

Quote:
Maybe you could elaborate on how you believed they earned the right to between 36,000 and 50,400 manufacturing slots?
By conquering and developing the 140 systems required to "out-slot" highsec.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#295 - 2013-04-27 14:28:43 UTC
fozzie for CEO!

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#296 - 2013-04-27 14:34:04 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
Miners don't get respect in null. They get treated like renters... renters wearing dresses.

That's generally because mining in null is currently a rather pointless thing to do.
If it's made worthwhile then nobody's going to be laughing. It will be treated with the same respect as ratting (which frankly doesn't get treated with much respect either).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dilbert HighSeed
Pirannha Corp
#297 - 2013-04-27 14:45:20 UTC
Rujin Bellagraff wrote:
Regarding Ore/Ice mining. Many high-sec bears will be just that. No amount of convincing will move them over to low/null sec.
Some options they are probably considering:
- If one is a high-sec Ore miner, become an Ice miner. Join the throngs of pilots that will do the same, and learn to ninja the Ice belts that spawn, creating a monopoly for themselves.
- Join the high-sec incursion bear community.
- Unsub their high-sec bear accounts.

I would suspect that the percentage of miners that will actually move is less than 10%. Which means CCP is counting on the null-bears (bots) to pick up the slack. I am not a gambling person; so not sure of the outcome.

So CCP must have considered these 'risks vs. rewards', as they like to put it, and decided to move forward with these changes. Only time will tell if the change was good on their behalf (if their overall subscription goes up or down).


You can bet that ice interdiction parties by the null sec cartels will be a common thing.
They have the resources, pilots, and organization to mine out ice belts FAST, and at the same time bump/ destroy any other non-allied mining ships from the belts.

It will become a situation that they will have ongoing threads on their private forums stating the precise time that a new belt will spawn, allowing the next wave of their pilots 4 TZ's over to grab the entire belt's worth of ice.

Welcome to the new resource chokepoint / oligopoly commodity.
But hey, the goon lead game designer said he wanted ice to become the oil of Eve.

Well, expect goons, test, and others to continue to act like u.s., China, Russia, and the other major powers do in the real world with oil, and do their best to have their industrial corps control the supply, backed by whatever military might is required.
Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#298 - 2013-04-27 14:48:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
Miners don't get respect in null. They get treated like renters... renters wearing dresses.

That's generally because mining in null is currently a rather pointless thing to do.
If it's made worthwhile then nobody's going to be laughing. It will be treated with the same respect as ratting (which frankly doesn't get treated with much respect either).


I'll believe it when I see it.

And I agree on the ratting comment. As long as alliances had moongoo incomes to replace everyone's PvP losses, ANY form of grinding looked like wallet fattening greed when we should, instead, be engaged in PvP.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2013-04-27 14:50:50 UTC
Dilbert HighSeed wrote:
You can bet that ice interdiction parties by the null sec cartels will be a common thing.
They have the resources, pilots, and organization to mine out ice belts FAST, and at the same time bump/ destroy any other non-allied mining ships from the belts.

It will become a situation that they will have ongoing threads on their private forums stating the precise time that a new belt will spawn, allowing the next wave of their pilots 4 TZ's over to grab the entire belt's worth of ice.

I think you seriously overestimate their ability to do this to more than a handful of ice belts. They might be able to do more if they commit a significant portion of their pilots to the task, but they're not going to care that much to do it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2013-04-27 14:53:11 UTC
Yeah, because having a 24/7 icemining division in highsec has always been mittens favorite wet dreamRoll