These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

First post First post First post
Author
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#261 - 2013-04-27 11:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sofia Wolf
I suggested ore rebalance earlier myself but I don’t exactly agree with way it is being done here. Gnessis and Spod changes are good, but what is the point of buffing ABC, especially Arkonour? Ark is 2nd best ore to mine anywhere as it is, it needs no boost. And why is noting being done about omber? Is omber to remain **** ore as before, and why?

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2013-04-27 11:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
a miner is prey and its only defense, like prey, should be fleeing to safety when the predators arrive


Ooh, you do sound so tough.

You need to tone down the role-play a notch or two.

50% of players play solo, (quoted at fan-fest) so it is rather difficult for any solo miming ship to defend itself against a pvp ship.

EvilweaselSA wrote:
a miner is prey and its only defense, like prey, should be fleeing to safety when the predators arrive


the miner (or ratter for that matter) doesn't stand a chance against the predator whether alone or in a group - but he has a terrain advantage (jumpclones, jumpbridges, offices, ...) that enables him to outrun the predator quite easily.

Outrun the predator a few times and he will start looking for easier prey (when animals do this it is called "stotting").

One of the most idiotic mistakes common amongst players that are new to 0.0 is that they try to "secure" their ratting or mining ops.
I don't know what makes them think that this is a good idea but I have been part of enough drops on mining ops that had a "security detail" to tell you with great confidence that having pvp ships idle around only drives down your average isk/h and won't prevent anyone from killing your Orca and mining ships.
Mobility is a 0.0 miner/ratter's only defense and this is a good thing.

.

Adrian Dixon
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction
-affliction-
#263 - 2013-04-27 11:39:51 UTC
So happy that changes are being made and thigs are being done. Big smile
Zifrian
Aideron Robotics
#264 - 2013-04-27 11:50:00 UTC
I'm good with all changes except the ability to scan down a grav belt with the onboard scanner. I don't have a problem being vigilant while mining. I have a problem with people camping systems 23/7 while they are at work or whatever then they end up hotdropping you with a fleet of blackops. Till now, you had some ability to counter that because a lot of times the didn't scan down the belts. I don't have issues with roaming fleets or people who even stay waiting at their computer for a few hours for you to screw up. But giving people who can camp all day the ability to scan a system down that fast really calls for a counter of some sort.

Also, how does this affect wormholes? Isn't the whole point of wormhole space that everything is undiscovered? This basically kills wormhole mining.

Perhaps this is the intent, make it harder for people to mine in 0.0 as a balance to nerfing high-sec but it's already a bit of a challenge.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

ngaly
Doomheim
#265 - 2013-04-27 11:50:00 UTC
It is very unfair that some players made huge profits by knowing about the changes before you announced them. The CSM and especially CCP Devs did surely talk about this to friends in some cases. It is impossible for you to find out who talked. However, what you can do is punish those players who took advantage of the insider information. Like in real life you can discover insider trading by simply identifying the players who made unusual successful investments. What you should do is simple remove a part of their investments respective to the amount the specific item increased in price directly after you announced the changes.

In the future you should announce resource related changes even before you decide to implement them. You should clearly announce what you are thinking about changing as soon as you start thinking about it and you should announce what you intend to implement as soon as you decide to implement it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#266 - 2013-04-27 11:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
How many Hi-sec systems have 500-700 manufacturing slots?
Far more than there would be nullsec systems that had the same.

Quote:
500-700 slots per station would give just Goonswarm more manufacturing slots than all of Hi-sec and then you have everyone elses outpost on top of that.
No, it wouldn't, because it would be an economic and logistical clusterfuck to put a fully upgraded industry-only station in every system. Also, so what? If any alliance really wanted to build 140 outposts, fully upgrade them for this one task (and nothing else), then they bloody well should get all that capacity, so what's the problem with that?

Of course, in reality, there's no reason for them to since not even all the highsec slots are occupied at the moment, so unless they also have a industrialist membership that rivals all of highsec (and then some), it makes no sense to do that — those outposts would be a complete waste of ISK and time. What they could do is offer capacity that lets their industrialists work at home rather than in highsec, and for that they need highsec-like capacity. There's still the issue of highsec being free and easy, and that problem can't be fixed by altering null…
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2013-04-27 11:57:20 UTC
Fozzie, have you noticed that you get asked to write about major changes more often than not.

Though your disclaimers are better than average so I can see why.

Someone should give that man a raise.

((More PG for one of the Amarr BS please))
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#268 - 2013-04-27 11:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Haur
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Secondly, those outpost slot increases are off by about one order of magnitude. The design goal should be that if you really max out an indy station, you should have 500–700 manufacturing slots… even these new numbers aren't nearly enough to get there.

Enough for 45-63 industrialists with perfect skills to perform all available manufacturing jobs 24/7? No, I don't think that's a good idea. Inflate the volume and you deflate the value.

Enough for a single nullsec system to be comparable with a single highsec system. It's an excellent idea.
Alternatively, we can slash the number of highsec indy slots by… oh… 80% or so. Would that be a better solution?

How many Hi-sec systems have 500-700 manufacturing slots?

A lot of Hi-sec stations and systems have no manufacturing capability. 500-700 slots per station would give just Goonswarm more manufacturing slots than all of Hi-sec and then you have everyone elses outpost on top of that.

Itamo has a total of 550 manufacturing slots 2 jumps from Jita, all with 50% base refineries. However, I do agree that that amount of slots is limited to relatively few systems, and giving that many slots with the prevalence of Amarr outposts is slightly excessive, especially when considering the capacity-increasing time reductions on ship production in amarr outposts.

Just for reference, when producing ships in Amarr outposts, you get a 30% base time reduction on ships, up to 60% for either T1 or T2 ships with the top-tier upgrade. That works out as a 42% capacity increase at stock, up to doubling capacity with the tier 2 upgrade and 2.5x capacity maxed.

Yes, it doesn't affect modules/drones etc., but they would require a fairly significant nerf to highsec manufacturing to be worth building, even with the time reductions availiable at other outpost types.
Gelatine
EverBroke Geeks
#269 - 2013-04-27 12:39:03 UTC
I'm cool with these changes (I think,) but I'd like to ask for "something" to be done about d-scan. If all the miners (who aren't bots) go to null-sec, they're all going to end up with RSI from hitting the d-scan buttan every second. Maybe a module scanning every cycle automatically with a fixed scan range, or a drone or something along those lines - something. Cheers.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#270 - 2013-04-27 12:41:12 UTC
Gelatine wrote:
I'm cool with these changes (I think,) but I'd like to ask for "something" to be done about d-scan. If all the miners (who aren't bots) go to null-sec, they're all going to end up with RSI from hitting the d-scan buttan every second. Maybe a module scanning every cycle automatically with a fixed scan range, or a drone or something along those lines - something. Cheers.

dscan isn't needed that much while Local remains in it's current state.

But yea a dscan improvement would be nice.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#271 - 2013-04-27 12:47:04 UTC
Not an expert on moon mining on reactions so no comment there....but.... everything else? FANTASTICLUCIOUS!!!! Thanks for the good job and being brave enough to do it.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
#272 - 2013-04-27 12:48:48 UTC
Putting aside the hysteria in some of these posts, I actually don't think these changes will achieve what CCP wants.

Firstly, I doubt high sec miners/industrialists will be lured to low and null sec by the proposed changes simply because CCP cannot change the behavior of players seeking 'security' or the ability to mine afk. Lets face it mining is something you do while looking at something far more interesting on your second screen.

Secondly I found this quote from Fozzie a little disingenuous:

'The lack of profitable sources of certain common minerals such as Tritanium and Pyerite conspires with the lack of reasonable manufacturing facilities to cripple the prospects of Nullsec industry, robbing miners of a local market for their minerals, and manufacturers of a place to ply their trade in player-owned space.'

While I agree with the statement, we all know that anything manufactured or mined in low or null sec is likely to be jumped back into high sec where the major trade hubs and markets are. With few exceptions (and I'm happy for someone to tell me what they are), I can't see major market hubs, where large volumes of items are moved consistently, springing up in low or null sec.

If CCP are serious about making low or null sec 'self sufficient' then they should make jump freighters unable to enter high-sec. Only that would encourage local markets to flourish as then there would be no easy to route to and from high sec.


Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#273 - 2013-04-27 12:50:23 UTC
Grav site becoming anomalies makes WH mining mostly non-viable. Perhaps Skiff only fleets might work under heavy protection.

No longer can mining fleets detect your presence by probes and have time to warp to POS. Any unopened WH an attacker finds is almost an automatic mining ship kill even without cov ops cloak.

There is NO fleet protection from surprise attack alpha volleys. That is the whole principle of most RL snipers. Most those mining ships are going to pop in the first few seconds of any organized attack -- with the possible exception of skiffs. Most the time so-called defense fleets will be left with merely revenge.

Yes you can quickly start defending from later attacks. But the first attacks are free even if you see them on directional 3-4 second from arrival. No mining ship larger than Venture is going to warp out in time if they were actually mining. If they are orbiting its likely even slower. And only Skiff orbits fast enough to generate much angular velocity.

The opening of new WH's provides an perfect WH system breaching opportunity -- totally stealth ambush on any mining fleet that they should not be able see coming in time no matter how god they are. Just stack your fleet up at 10K+ distance from WH like SWAT and military does when they blow new "door" in back wall for breaching ops. Rush that wh to open it. Then scan once for grav site anomalies on the other. Next thing you are landing in ambush range of their mining fleet in 20 seconds.

Simple Covet Ops ship attacks through existing WH also benefit. This change frees high slot normally used for probes and cuts time to attack dramatically. If they aren't warping as soon as they hear you enter, those mining ships are toast. Every WH is like you had BMed the grav sites earlier.

--
Some insist that NO ONE would go for a mining ship kill first if there are combat ship around. BS I have seen different many times.

Why? Often it just comes down to mining ships are faster ISK killed/second - plus combat ship tend to stick around longer than is wise. But sometimes mining ships are all a small hit and run attack fleet is strong enough to put on his killboard and get away alive. They destroy miners and run before you r huge protect fleet turns them to space dust. Sometimes its killboard greed. They are pretty sure they can take your protection fleet easily if it sticks around but take the first 20 seconds to add your mining ships to that expected total before miners can warp away. All based on the idea miners run immediately if slowly; but combat ships normally can't start leaving until last miner warps out.
--



Solutions other than go all skiff?

Well CCP could provide lesser sovereignty structures in WH to automatically detect new wh openings & send out audio/chat alarm. Not pinpointing new Wh location necessarily.

New anchorable mobile structures could provide mining sites limited protection like

(1) warning shield: huge (100km radius) but very weak (1000hp?) POS-like force shield to stop ambush approach at viable warning distance. Only useful versus single intruders. And since its anchored the attacker still gets a structure kill in many cases.

(2) Advanced Mobile Warp Disruptor -- keyed like POS shields so that friendlies can warp in and out freely but others are stopped at 25km (small), 40km (medium), 100km (large) or 250km (huge).
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#274 - 2013-04-27 12:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Secondly, those outpost slot increases are off by about one order of magnitude. The design goal should be that if you really max out an indy station, you should have 500–700 manufacturing slots… even these new numbers aren't nearly enough to get there.

Enough for 45-63 industrialists with perfect skills to perform all available manufacturing jobs 24/7? No, I don't think that's a good idea. Inflate the volume and you deflate the value.

Enough for a single nullsec system to be comparable with a single highsec system. It's an excellent idea.
Alternatively, we can slash the number of highsec indy slots by… oh… 80% or so. Would that be a better solution?

How many Hi-sec systems have 500-700 manufacturing slots?

A lot of Hi-sec stations and systems have no manufacturing capability. 500-700 slots per station would give just Goonswarm more manufacturing slots than all of Hi-sec and then you have everyone elses outpost on top of that.


Itamo 550
Nonni 750
Baviasi 450
Hilaban 450
Inghenges 550
Haatomo 450
Suroken 450
Penirgman 700
Ghesis 450

Now answer me this: How many Amarr Outposts have the required 5 upgrades?

Also: why is it wrong for Goonswarm to have more slots than hi-sec?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Stragak
#275 - 2013-04-27 12:57:17 UTC
Any way you flip the pancake it is still a pancake.

Yes I agree there should be a boost to Outpost but I feel it should be along side of the POS system that allot more people use. Including the Outpost uses... Just saying.

Secondly 550-1M whats the difference... More indy alts that's what to use of those slots. Needs more dynamics in this solution til I personally approve it.

"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches". In good humor, and slight annoyance, Boiglio   https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82

Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#276 - 2013-04-27 13:04:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Now answer me this: How many Amarr Outposts have the required 5 upgrades?


I only know of one, it's one of the old RKK factories in Delve.


In other news, CCP posts in the devblog that the resource roundtable was to be moved to singularity. It wasn't. It's packed completely full.
xinthorminaias
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#277 - 2013-04-27 13:15:50 UTC
Fozzie have you considered how many of your customers do ice mining at the moment and enjoy the current system and style of play. Perhaps you have some stats or have taken a randomised opinion poll?

Have you also considered what proportion of those will quit and what proportion will make a move and mine in null or low sec?
Frying Doom
#278 - 2013-04-27 13:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Secondly, those outpost slot increases are off by about one order of magnitude. The design goal should be that if you really max out an indy station, you should have 500–700 manufacturing slots… even these new numbers aren't nearly enough to get there.

Enough for 45-63 industrialists with perfect skills to perform all available manufacturing jobs 24/7? No, I don't think that's a good idea. Inflate the volume and you deflate the value.

Enough for a single nullsec system to be comparable with a single highsec system. It's an excellent idea.
Alternatively, we can slash the number of highsec indy slots by… oh… 80% or so. Would that be a better solution?

How many Hi-sec systems have 500-700 manufacturing slots?

A lot of Hi-sec stations and systems have no manufacturing capability. 500-700 slots per station would give just Goonswarm more manufacturing slots than all of Hi-sec and then you have everyone elses outpost on top of that.


Itamo 550
Nonni 750
Baviasi 450
Hilaban 450
Inghenges 550
Haatomo 450
Suroken 450
Penirgman 700
Ghesis 450

Now answer me this: How many Amarr Outposts have the required 5 upgrades?

Also: why is it wrong for Goonswarm to have more slots than hi-sec?

first 450 is not between 500 and 700 and

Why do you believe Goonswarm should have more manufacturing capability than all of high sec?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Traidir
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#279 - 2013-04-27 13:29:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
At the same time as we seed these new minerals into moons, we will also be somewhat reducing the time required to complete a moon scan, to ensure that players can find the new minerals in a reasonable time period.


This is a missed opportunity: scanning moons could have been made into a game of its own... rather than: "Launch probes... wait... see if you won." *snore*... There should be a graphical interface, showing all the systems moons and the distribution layout (that you've scanned out so far). There should be active player input for detecting minerals; sloppy players should have a chance of missing resource caches that skilled players might catch. There should be an wide opportunity for PVP during the scanning: i.e. ships cant be cloaked while scans are underway... or perhaps a giant flag that says "someone is here" (as with planetary districts for example). There is even the possibility for scaning-result interference as players try to sabotage each other. Dust players could even be involved in the process. Serious, serious opportunity missed.... Is there still time to change things?
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#280 - 2013-04-27 13:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
I love the changes to ice. Now more more wealth will be concentrated in fewer hands and new players can GTFO. I look forward to larger corps and high sec alliances forcing out smaller players via freighter mining.


After all, we want small corps OUT of the POS market so it can be further monopolized by alliances.

I also like that lowsec will be able to mine all the trit it wants. After all, who needs high sec exports?