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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

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Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2013-04-18 17:57:15 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Roime wrote:

EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.

EVEMon also provides a market uploader that uses cache-scraping. Maybe you should be worried too?


It also uses the API data to then create a total market order value number, which is information provided by the game, but not through the API which is also a violation of 9.C in an extremely broad reading. Basically, if you manipulate the API data to then provide data that you could otherwise only get in game (And not just present the API data itself), you're in violation of 9.C.

Artctura for CSM 2013
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#302 - 2013-04-18 17:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cebraio wrote:
Roime wrote:
EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.

EVEMon also provides a market uploader that uses cache-scraping.
…which has nothing to do with people logging in to change skills, so his entire plan is shot.

Slumberg wrote:
So to help in the fight against bots you are making the use of EveMon a permaban offense
No.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#303 - 2013-04-18 17:59:00 UTC
Roime wrote:
Frogs wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If your department doesn't have the capacity to evaluate and green-list third party tools then you need to avoid language that makes using any tool an EULA violation.

The language of the third party policies post does not change the EULA. It simply explains the EULA more in depth.

We can't green-list third party tools. For one thing, doing so could make us legally liable for the actions done by third parties. So I'm afraid it's not just feasible, even if it would make things easier.


This is so awesome. I'm going to get all of Test banned. I'll just sit in Delve and petition anyone that logs in changes a skill, then logs out as an obvious cheater. Clearly they used EVEmon (an evil third party tool that uses cache scraping and explicitly against the EULA) to know it was time to log in and make the in game change.

Thanks for this CCP.


EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.





because bots never violated the eula until today c/d

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Rayne Dhampir
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#304 - 2013-04-18 17:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rayne Dhampir
.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#305 - 2013-04-18 17:59:40 UTC
Roime wrote:
No, they have already stated that they won't do that. If you are worried, turn the feature off.

Anyway, Goon whine is obviously not about Evemon.



Wow you're right it must be about all the sinister bots we use to keep the rest of the population of New Eden down.
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#306 - 2013-04-18 17:59:44 UTC
Roime wrote:
No, they have already stated that they won't do that. If you are worried, turn the feature off.

Anyway, Goon whine is obviously not about Evemon.



You're right. It's about a goon developed tool that does exactly what eve central and eve mon does. Because cache scraping allows botting and other cheats.

Artctura for CSM 2013
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2013-04-18 18:00:13 UTC
Jack Haydn wrote:
You guys do realize that you make yourself look pretty ridiculous when you point out the "not my department" line, right?

The various departments in your company can't cooperate (security and api devs or whatever the hell it is in this case) and therefore we as customers have to deal with this shizophrenic crap. Security puts up a wall around themselves and points to api devs, saying "Hey, this should be solved via the API, so we'll announce that cache scraping is a EULA bannable offence". The API devs, probably swamped with CREST work or whatever, put a wall around them, claiming "The stuff the players need works right now, we're working on something else and really don't have the time to change this".

The customer has to deal with two departments in one company who can't cooperate. The sane thing would be for security to say "Alright, until we get this stuff fixed on our behalf and until you can access the stuff via more technically appropriate means, let's go ahead and remove this bannable bit from the EULA. Please, players, until we get our stuff in order, go ahead and scrape all you want".

But nope, you rather ridicule yourself by putting out this shizophrenic, departmental behavior and point at each other internally, in public. Good stuff!


It looks like to me that CCP Stillman has been trying to put pressure on other departments to eliminate the cache. Perhaps he finds it to be a problem for security. By emphasizing a ban he can tell the other department that they are causing problems for the players. Unfortunately, the players and their frustration are a side effect of this departmental war.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#308 - 2013-04-18 18:00:15 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Roime wrote:

EVEMon uses the API to check for skills

It's your bots that you are worried about, and you should be.

EVEMon also provides a market uploader that uses cache-scraping. Maybe you should be worried too?



All of which means some people will actually have to log in more often and make a little more effort to achieve "whatever" --- just like other players.

OMG... seems horribly unfair of the EULA to require players to do that. Roll

Can't wait for the next installment of protest parodies, involving over-dubbed WW2 movies, to appear on Youtube.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Fishsticks Fred
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#309 - 2013-04-18 18:00:56 UTC
Where's the CSM on this?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#310 - 2013-04-18 18:01:31 UTC
Entity wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
War Kitten wrote:

Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)


The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.


Yup. My library for example, can be used for evil (by combining it with other things). I sincerely hope people aren't doing that though, I didn't write it for that.
And I don't expect CCP to greenlist anything really. They can't. I know that.

But this "rule by fear/terror" thing is not the way to handle the bigger issue (people abusing the otherwise harmless game data to cheat) here.

Punish people that cheat. Leave us 3rd party devs increasing the value of CCP's product go about our business in peace.

Quite understandable, and I think this was just an attempt to put legitimate users minds at ease without shooting themselves in the foot at the same time.

This is also likely why the Crest API is such a priority for them, as it could provide a safe and approved (and controllable) alternative to cache scraping when done.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2013-04-18 18:02:00 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:

This is something I would love to see. However it's not my department I'm afraid. I will however suggest this to Soundwave and Seagull. But I can't promise anything.


Could you also please ask them to drop by this thread and make their thoughts known on the development side of this kind of alternative?

A simple 'Yes we want to do this' or 'No we don't want to do this' would be nice, though even a 'Can't comment at this time because its too early, but we are at least investigating/discussing/brainstorming' would be decent. Or heck, it might turn into another 'Buy the HD stream' pitch. Not like we can ever hear too many of those Ugh
Satellite Sickness
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#312 - 2013-04-18 18:02:30 UTC
Fishsticks Fred wrote:
Where's the CSM on this?


Banned
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2013-04-18 18:03:19 UTC
Honestly, the whole thing comes across like a bunch of lawyers being passive-aggressive. "We know you're doing things against our EULA, but we won't take any adverse action. wink wink" While EVE players are notorious liars and thieves in-game, out of game many are quite honest, ethical people, who want to follow the rules.

Third-party developers play a huge role as positive enablers for this community. That said, we're not dealing with App Store-like volumes here. It would be very helpful for CCP to periodically publish a list of third-party applications that CCP determines are perfectly fine, even if they violate some technicality or another in the EULA. This is something Team Security could own, without going through the legal hurdles of changing the EULA. CCP ought to be doing a review of third-party apps in any event as they roll out more API functionality, so this function could reside there as well.

I don't think supporting this would take a large investment on CCP's part (i.e. it won't cost much), but will engender significant goodwill amongst enablers (i.e. people who help keep other players subscribed).

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#314 - 2013-04-18 18:03:26 UTC
You should just ban everyone that runs to go read the EULA, these guys obv have something to hide >.>

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Felix Sidius
Saints Among Sinners
#315 - 2013-04-18 18:04:04 UTC
My issue with what CCP say

"cache-scraping is illegal and against the EULA, but we'll only banned you if you don't something illegal with the info you gain which we have tools to tell us that you're doing."

Soooooo, why not just ban them for the illegal thing they're doing if you can already detect that? Rather than make cache-scraping the offence. The only reason to add this in to me is that you might suspect someone of doing something illegal but not prove it so ban them for cache-scraping, which then goes against the "we can detect the botters so evemon users don't have to worry".
CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#316 - 2013-04-18 18:04:57 UTC
Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.

CCP Peligro - Team Security
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#317 - 2013-04-18 18:05:36 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Quite understandable, and I think this was just an attempt to put legitimate users minds at ease without shooting themselves in the foot at the same time.


Well, that worked well.


Ranger 1 wrote:

This is also likely why the Crest API is such a priority for them, as it could provide a safe and approved (and controllable) alternative to cache scraping when done.


That's all well and good, and I look forward to using programs that take full advantage of these useful new features! However, in the meantime-- while these features don't exist-- I'd prefer not to be on the "people we could ban if we felt like it" list for using perfectly legitimate 3rd party tools.
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2013-04-18 18:06:15 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Entity wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
War Kitten wrote:

Can we have a list of programs that you're currently tolerating instead? :)


The problem with list is that some of these pieces of software include things that can easily be used to go beyond their simple function as a utility. Providing a list opens a loop hole that would be much more difficult to plug.


Yup. My library for example, can be used for evil (by combining it with other things). I sincerely hope people aren't doing that though, I didn't write it for that.
And I don't expect CCP to greenlist anything really. They can't. I know that.

But this "rule by fear/terror" thing is not the way to handle the bigger issue (people abusing the otherwise harmless game data to cheat) here.

Punish people that cheat. Leave us 3rd party devs increasing the value of CCP's product go about our business in peace.

Quite understandable, and I think this was just an attempt to put legitimate users minds at ease without shooting themselves in the foot at the same time.

This is also likely why the Crest API is such a priority for them, as it could provide a safe and approved (and controllable) alternative to cache scraping when done.


The dev blog was an attempt to put legitimate users minds at ease. Then CCP Stillman showed up and decided to blow up the discussion.

Artctura for CSM 2013
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#319 - 2013-04-18 18:06:43 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Roime wrote:
No, they have already stated that they won't do that. If you are worried, turn the feature off.

Anyway, Goon whine is obviously not about Evemon.



Wow you're right it must be about all the sinister bots we use to keep the rest of the population of New Eden down.


Why are you so worried then about your program?

If it's harmless, then it is. Just like before.

.
Esmilis99
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#320 - 2013-04-18 18:07:25 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.

After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.



Now put it in the dev blog, or somewhere else visible. Page 16 of a random feedback thread is not a credible place